Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Hummer Deathtraps Suck
Winds of Change ^ | March 24, 2006 | Joe Katzman

Posted on 03/23/2006 6:56:16 PM PST by Cannoneer No. 4

Over at DID, I note that the US military has just begun fielding a new variant of the HMMWV jeep: the M1151 and M1152. Think of them as Hummer v2.1.

The good news is that the new hummers are designed for rapid installation and removal of armor in the field, with minimal tools and support. This greatly simplifies logistics and upgrades, and allows the armor to be removed when it isn't needed so the Hummers will last a little longer (up-armored HMMWV suspensions die quickly due to all the extra weight).

The bad news is that despite the armor improvements, the HMMWV remains trapped in 1980s thinking. It was designed to make use of American auto-industry experience. That's why Ah-nold has a personal fleet to drive around town, and the decision did help lower costs. It's also why the HMMWV was built with a conventional flat bottom and frame.

The thing is, flat bottoms are mine-blast traps. It's possible to provide some protection, but the martial arts equivalent would be a style that requires you to catch the full force of every punch head-on.

Not a huge problem when the only mines around are the ones you're laying in front of advancing Soviet troops. Today? Big problem, which continues to kill Americans, 3 years after Operation Iraqi Freedom began. And the US military procurement system continues to churn out hundreds of millions of dollars worth of up-armored Hummers... that will be left in Iraq afterward, because the extra armor's weight kills their suspensions et. al.

Burning money, burning troops. It's beyond ridiculous - and there is a better way...

The South Africans faced this issue a long time ago. They built vehicles like the Casspir truck et. al. with V-shaped steel hulls that deflect a mine blast to the sides. The mine may blow off the tires, but the occupants have a much better chance of surviving. Australia's similar-sized Bushmaster vehicles use this principle, as do many others nowadays like the German Krauss-Maffei Dingo and the British Iveco Panther. So do smaller vehicles like BAE OMC's RG-31 Nyala. For some vehicles, composite blast panels that can flex rather than breaking add to the protection.

The RG-31 is currently used by the US 101st Airborne, by EOD (explosive ordnance dispoal) and combat engineer units in the US Army and Marines, and by Canadian troops in Afghanistan. The US Army bought about 148 of them last February, at a cost of about $78 million. It's about a foot taller than the up-armored M1114 HMMWV, about two feet longer, and about as wide. It also weighs about 4,000 pounds more, at 16,500 pounds... and is much more likely to protect its occupants when it hits a land mine. The other difference is that 16,500 pounds is what an RG-31 Nyala is supposed to weigh. Which means you don't have to throw them away after a couple of years.

If it's good enough for the EOD folks, and has characteristics very similar to a Hummer, why the heck isn't it in general use when IED land mines remain the main threat in Iraq?

I do not understand why this vehicle, or another survivable solution, has not been priority-designated as the USA's Hummer-replacement designate for the Iraqi theater. No, scratch that. I do understand. I just think the reasons are bulls--t.

The Congressional delegations pushing manufacturing for vehicles and armor add-ons in their districts, even if it's something that won't really protect American troops properly. The bureaucratic mindset that sees "replace the Hummer" as some massive "US Army fleet for the next 30 years" infrastructure project, and so takes 5-10 years just to make a decision because every i must be dotted and every t crossed as some futuristic (and bet on it: very expensive) new vehicle is designed. Why, so you can field it after the conflict is over? What's needed is a priority war project that looks to implement an off-the-shelf alternative or set of alternatives NOW, for use as a vehicle pool in a designated theater. Any sign of that? No.

Sorry, that isn't good enough in wartime. Especially since future wars can be expected to include similar threats.

Yes, I know that even wartime procurement takes time. For example, let's say the US military wanted to buy RG-31 Chargers (its name for them) in quantity, and was prepared to take initial deliveries from South Africa until manufacturing could transition to a US plant. The plant would have to staff up, training and quality levels take time to kick in, suppliers have to make expansions of their own, etc. It would probably be 12-18 months before they would start arriving in any serious quantity (or at least, the quantities America begins to consider 'serious') from South Africa, and about 2-3 years before you could hope to get really serious thousand-or-thousands per year rolling off the production lines established in the USA.

If we're going to offer serious criticism, we have to acknowledge this reality, and address what to do in the interim. Given the number of Hummers to substitute for, it's a multi-year interim of having at least some Hummers in service in Iraq and Afghanistan any way you slice it.

That's why I've been fairly accepting, until now, of the "up-armor the HMMWVs" situation. It was the logical expedient that would get some improved protection to the field fastest, so the largest possible number of troops could benefit.

In fairness (and this is a scary thought), the Pentagon and all its well-chronicled procurement deficiencies is still a step up on most militaries. It has put some RG-31 vehicles in the field, as well as much bigger Cougar armored trucks (also with V-hulls) and the related Buffalo mine-removal vehicle, plus some M117 Guardian armored security vehicles. It has also done well in quickly iterating a fleet of small mine-disposal robots like the TALON, iRobot, MarcBOT IV, etc. Even the Brits look at these robots, and stuff like the Buffalo and its monster claw, and they're jealous of the USA's willingness and ability to get this kind of "shiny new kit" to their troops in just a couple of years.

Having said that, much more could and arguably should have been done. These are all fine ancillaries. But they are ancillaries. Sure, there's a major IED task force and lots of new side equipment. Yet even the experts acknowledge that there's no technical solution or set of solutions which will remove the threat. If IED land mines are going to be a feature of life, maybe the place to start is in making sure that the Army's main ride is designed to cope.

That's why I'm disappointed that other obvious 'fast-patch' options which would directly replace Hummers have been neglected. And I'm even more disappointed that the Army is still relying on Hummers as the main ride it's still buying in quantity, not just the main ride it's using.

There were options. There still are options.

Could the USA have rewarded its Australian allies for their help, and bought even a small order of 250 larger, V-hulled Bushmasters for use instead of Hummers in higher-threat zones like Baghdad, for convoy duty from Kuwait, or for zones near Australian forces who have also been using it in Iraq? Yes, absolutely. Good diplomacy, good for the troops, offers an immediate improvement and a tryout opportunity for larger things. If it proves effective and competitive vs. other alternatives, order more. If something else becomes "the big standard" later, give them to the US Homeland Security department where they'll be very useful along the southern border.

Then there's Rhino Runner ultra-armored bus, which transported Donald Rumsfeld during a Baghdad visit in 2004. As this DID articles notes, the small firm who makes them, wouldn't give the Pentagon $500,000 worth of free buses to get shot up in testing with zero recompense and zero guarantee of future orders. Hence no approval. Some security contractors in Iraq are smart enough to use them.

Some M113 tracked armored personnel carriers are serving in Iraq, and have received pretty decent reviews - read this one. Those who use them don't want a Hummer instead. Now, the kicker: there are a couple thousand M113s currently sitting idle in US storage. For not very much money, you could add spall lining, floor armor, gun shields, slat armor "cages," then equip them with the same communications gear the new Hummers get. For rather more money (about $750,000 each), you could fit them with quiet hybrid drives (quiet is a big asset in urban combat), rubber band tracks that are quiet and will not damage roads while preserving off-road mobility, slat/reactive armor, gun shields, spall linings and floor armor, and upgraded communications, plus any other refurbishment needed.

Would these upgraded "M113A4" vehicles survive IED attacks as well as a Stryker? No, and that isn't the comparison I'd make. The Strykers have performed better than I expected in Iraq, and they have features even an upgraded M113 would lack. But Strykers cost $3.5 million each and are organized in totally new brigade formations, as integral "Styker Brigade Combat Teams." Great. What do you do for all the soldiers who aren't in one? "Give them Hummers" is the wrong answer.

Would upgraded M113s be a big improvement over the Hummers for other Army units, due to better mine resistance and RPG protection? Yes. Deliverable quickly, in numbers? Yes. Would they be better than the Marines' AA7 Amtracs amphibious tracked behicles? Yes, and having Marines use M113s in theater instead would save wear on the very old but uniquely amphibious Amtracs. Could the M113s be returned to the USA afterward, for use in future on the Mexican border or elsewhere? Yes. Could they be given to the Iraqis later, as a cheap and effective mechanized force nucleus at half the price of any comparable alternative? Yes.

Meanwhile, Cougar and RG-31 production could be ramped up, giving US forces durable, serious rides that would improve the force mix as they arrived in quantity about now. If, that is, the Pentagon had got off its butt on this early with a more serious plan.

Instead of that scenario, the US military has actively choked M113 use, favouring the Hummers - and doesn't seem to be moving with a lot of urgency on other fronts either. Cougars and RG-31, which have the potential to be mainstream transports in-theater, are bought in small quantities for EOD units. Evaluation of Hummer alternatives is not a priority. And over a billion dollars worth of throwaway new Hummers are headed off the production line. Wonderful.

Up-armored Hummers may be an improvement if you're the Iraqi Army, riding in unmodified pickups. They may be an improvement for other allies on the ground. They'll help you survive heavy small arms fire, or small IEDs, which is better than a Ford F150 or a basic Land Rover will do. Fine. Give the Iraqis or other allies the Hummers for their use, as American alternatives are fielded. But have a dammned alternative already.

I'm starting to move past disappointment to anger that the HMMWV is still seen as the mainstay wheeled ride for Iraq. US troops need and deserve a better ride, in numbers, that makes the "up-armored Hummer" the temporary - and partial - expedient that it always should have been.

Final point. I understand that shaped-charge devices sent in from Iran and larger IED land mines will blow a hole through any HMMWV-sized vehicle no matter what, and most larger ones as well. The Israelis have even lost a couple 60-ton Merkava-3 tanks to such tactics.

Nothing is foolproof.

But there is value in setting the bar higher, and offering more protection. Else why have protection at all? Especially when that protection is already on the market, and proven.

US policy and its defense procurement system have set the bar pretty low for their troops' primary ride in a war zone, and it's not looking like a field expedient any more. That's a decision that has cost lives, and will cost lives. It's a decision that needs to be reversed, and replaced with a serious plan to make the Hummer history in America's theaters of war.


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; US: Indiana; US: Ohio; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: humvee; ied; iraq; oif; uparmoredhumvee; wheeledarmor
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-100101-103 next last

HMMWV, IEDed

Bushmaster

RG-31, IEDed

Cougar H

1 posted on 03/23/2006 6:56:19 PM PST by Cannoneer No. 4
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: Cannoneer No. 4

I don't want to say too much, because I know precisely jack about this sort of thing, but this seems to be an instance of the "ready, fire, aim" method of procurement.


2 posted on 03/23/2006 6:59:41 PM PST by Gordongekko909 (I know. Let's cut his WHOLE BODY off.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Cannoneer No. 4

I'd rather be in a hummer than this.
3 posted on 03/23/2006 7:01:26 PM PST by Echo Talon
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Cannoneer No. 4

Thank you ... very informative article ...


4 posted on 03/23/2006 7:02:00 PM PST by SubGeniusX
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Cannoneer No. 4

Also, that humvee looks like it was hit with a larger IED than what the other vehicle was hit with.


5 posted on 03/23/2006 7:04:32 PM PST by Echo Talon
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: SubGeniusX
It's a sore subject with me.
6 posted on 03/23/2006 7:04:43 PM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (Our enemies act on ecstatic revelations from their god. We act on the advice of lawyers.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: Echo Talon
That's precisely the point. The Hummer is NOT a light, armored vehicle. It is basic - as in first level - military transportatin.

The other vehicles it is being compared to are meant to go in harms way by their basic desgin. The Hummer is not. It is meant to take folks from point A to point B and not to go into active combat.

7 posted on 03/23/2006 7:05:24 PM PST by keithtoo (It's STILL not safe to vote Democrat)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: Cannoneer No. 4
The HMMWV replaced the M151 1/4 ton Jeep, M274 1/2 ton Mechanical Mule, M561 1 1/4 ton Gamma Goat, M718A1 Ambulance, M792 Ambulance, and some M880 1 1/4 ton trucks.

As far as I know the Hummer was never conceived to be an anti-IED vehicle....nor a tank, but it makes a great story for the MSM.

8 posted on 03/23/2006 7:08:24 PM PST by Decepticon (The sheep pretend the wolf will never come, but the sheepdog lives for that day (NRA)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Cannoneer No. 4

If an IED and disable an 63TON M1A1 Abrams Tank...
Armor on a light vehicle is really a moot point.
9 posted on 03/23/2006 7:10:09 PM PST by Echo Talon
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: keithtoo
The other vehicles it is being compared to are meant to go in harms way by their basic desgin. The Hummer is not. It is meant to take folks from point A to point B and not to go into active combat.

Well, it surely wasn't designed to have explosives detonated under it. Although, in a small arms fight against infantry it should fare ok with the mounted machinegun, still NOT an assualt type vehicle. look at the picture of the M1A1 in the picture above this post.

10 posted on 03/23/2006 7:12:53 PM PST by Echo Talon
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: Echo Talon
You're right. It is a totally different animal when you're talking about driving over an IED that can contain several 500 pound bombs, as opposed to a conventional land mine. It is almost unbelievable that anything can do that to an M1A1.

Hell, you pile enough explosives together and you can blow away half a mountain.

11 posted on 03/23/2006 7:16:01 PM PST by keithtoo (It's STILL not safe to vote Democrat)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: keithtoo

exactly, with an IED you have NO idea how big the explosion is going to be hence the name... IED(Improvised Explosive Device), could be 2000lb's of explosives or just 50lbs.. you never know.


12 posted on 03/23/2006 7:19:22 PM PST by Echo Talon
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: Cannoneer No. 4

Send more Cougars!


13 posted on 03/23/2006 7:23:47 PM PST by ryan71
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Echo Talon
If you raise the vehicle high enough off the ground... maybe it will be safe...


14 posted on 03/23/2006 7:26:53 PM PST by operation clinton cleanup
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: Echo Talon

And the M-1 crew probably walked away unhurt despite the tank being pretty well destroyed.


15 posted on 03/23/2006 7:29:10 PM PST by COEXERJ145 (Real Leaders Base Their Decisions on Their Convictions. Wannabes Base Decisions on the Latest Poll.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: COEXERJ145

The Abrams crew is probably ok. our military would be pretty damn slow though if that was our only means of transportation on the battlefield. No that Abrams are slow, but the transport and logistics of them is another story.


16 posted on 03/23/2006 7:37:18 PM PST by Echo Talon
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: operation clinton cleanup

LOL


17 posted on 03/23/2006 7:37:40 PM PST by Echo Talon
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: Cannoneer No. 4
You want at tank, get a tank. You want an armored personnel carrier, get a Bradley or a Stryker.

The Hummer was NEVER intended to be a tank or APC. It is a replacement for the NO ARMOR, 60 hp jeep that had not changed much since WWII.

It is silly to build every vehicle to withstand every possible attack. To do so, you sacrifice mobility and rapid deployment. Often it is more important to get there first than to get there absolutely safely.
18 posted on 03/23/2006 7:40:37 PM PST by taxcontrol
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: neverdem; FreedomCalls; Lurker; Hardastarboard; Wiz; OldArmy52; Ranger; archy; ...

ping


19 posted on 03/23/2006 7:42:25 PM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (Our enemies act on ecstatic revelations from their god. We act on the advice of lawyers.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Echo Talon

How much of that damage was done by the IED and how much by the crew/friendlies to keep it out of enemy hands?


20 posted on 03/23/2006 7:42:44 PM PST by PLMerite ("Unarmed, one can only flee from Evil. But Evil isn't overcome by fleeing from it." Jeff Cooper)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: Echo Talon
Airborne artillery! (but not good at moving troops around).


21 posted on 03/23/2006 7:44:14 PM PST by operation clinton cleanup
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: Cannoneer No. 4

This is always a good reminder to show how vulnerable our troops are on the roads.

I take issue with the part of the original post that mentions the M113 as a suitable replacement for uparmored humvees.

There is no way they can do 300 mile days at 70-75 mph. Also as far as damaging the road surface, yes they would because a lot of the road surfaces were asphalt, and any heavy vehicle damaged them quickly, wheeled or tracked.

The unit that replaced us received the ASV, one of our platoons in Baghdad also received the ASV, but that was one toy that my platoon wanted but never saw in our motor pool.

When I left in June 04, Buffalo's were in theater along with the MERKAT support vehicles. It would make sense to buy a bunch of the Cougars or ANYTHING that can survive better than the M1114 series Humvees.

Our M1114s sustained several hits with nothing more than marked up windshields and flattened tires.

The serious weak link to the Humvee that I HOPE has been resolved is tire wear! They didn't have a tire that was designed to carry the weight of the M1114 series Humvee that is twice the weight of the standard M1025/M1026 series Humvee, yet use the same tires. Those tires could wear out in as little as a week!

Also there is one thing that is mis-quoted more than anything else. The M-1114 is a built from the ground up armored vehicle. The M1025 was not. The M1025 is the one that had suspension problems with additional armor added to it. The M1114's suspension and engine were designed for the weight (if the tires werent), and the vehicle actually handled pretty well.

The M1025 with armor bolted on was a pig that couldn't get out of its own way.


22 posted on 03/23/2006 7:47:05 PM PST by SFC Chromey (We are at war with Islamofascism)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: Cannoneer No. 4

The up-armor HMMWV is still better and less lethal to its occupants than the vehicle whose role it's taken over - the ACAV or M113.


23 posted on 03/23/2006 7:47:49 PM PST by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: SFC Chromey

Thank you for your service - and your first-hand observations.


24 posted on 03/23/2006 7:49:15 PM PST by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: Echo Talon
Soldiers in Iraq too vulnerable, says Army specialist
25 posted on 03/23/2006 7:49:45 PM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (Our enemies act on ecstatic revelations from their god. We act on the advice of lawyers.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: PLMerite
How much of that damage was done by the IED and how much by the crew/friendlies to keep it out of enemy hands?

No idea, but the IED did disable it.
I don't care how much armor you put on something you put enough explosives under it its gonna blow up.

26 posted on 03/23/2006 7:50:01 PM PST by Echo Talon
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

Comment #27 Removed by Moderator

To: taxcontrol
It is silly to build every vehicle to withstand every possible attack. To do so, you sacrifice mobility and rapid deployment. Often it is more important to get there first than to get there absolutely safely.

Some people do not understand this.

28 posted on 03/23/2006 7:51:50 PM PST by Echo Talon
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: Echo Talon

Exactly....the hummer was pressed into a mission it was never intended for IMO.


29 posted on 03/23/2006 7:52:16 PM PST by Squantos (Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet. )
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: SFC Chromey

Wow, sorry for the double post! My bad yo!


30 posted on 03/23/2006 7:54:00 PM PST by SFC Chromey (We are at war with Islamofascism)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: Cannoneer No. 4
A Humvee was not designed to be a tank, Bradley or a stryker. It's a replacement for the Jeep.
31 posted on 03/23/2006 7:55:42 PM PST by Echo Talon
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: Echo Talon

It's along the same lines of personal armor. SFTT.org has talked to a armor manufacturer that can't get a DOD contract for a system that is apparently more protective than the SAPI plates and Point Blank vests we use now.

The more they add to those vests, the more they weigh, the more it slows down the good guys.


32 posted on 03/23/2006 7:56:18 PM PST by SFC Chromey (We are at war with Islamofascism)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: keithtoo
The Hummer is not. It is meant to take folks from point A to point B and not to go into active combat.

Baloney, the scout platoon in the Mech Infantry battalion I was in several years ago used the Hummers for recon and screening. We've known since at least Somalia that the Hummer is insufficient for the tasks it is given in the real world. We shouldn't buy any vehicles without at least some armor plating.

33 posted on 03/23/2006 7:56:36 PM PST by 91B (God made man, Sam Colt made men equal.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: Squantos
Its a good vehicle and does the job it was intended to do very well. Is going above and beyond what it was designed for? The answer is obviously Yes, given the fact of all the "new" armor packages made for it that it's suspension really can't handle.
34 posted on 03/23/2006 8:01:39 PM PST by Echo Talon
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: Echo Talon

"I don't care how much armor you put on something you put enough explosives under it its gonna blow up."

Oh, absolutely. One can up-armor what is basically a light truck only so much. Anti-landmine designs probably don't work very well against IEDs at road- or above-road-level.


35 posted on 03/23/2006 8:02:28 PM PST by PLMerite ("Unarmed, one can only flee from Evil. But Evil isn't overcome by fleeing from it." Jeff Cooper)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: Cannoneer No. 4

I've seen up close what happens to troops when an IED goes off under their vehicle. Haji adapts to our countermeasures and uses pressure activated IEDs because other kinds of IEDs are not getting the results that he wants. The South African vehicle reflects their experiences in Namibia and would save the lives of our GIs-they have built a better mousetrap. Don't even get me started about what a POS the M997 (Hummer ambulance) is and how it is virtually impossible to up armor.


36 posted on 03/23/2006 8:03:12 PM PST by 91B (God made man, Sam Colt made men equal.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: 91B
Baloney, the scout platoon in the Mech Infantry battalion I was in several years ago used the Hummers for recon and screening. We've known since at least Somalia that the Hummer is insufficient for the tasks it is given in the real world. We shouldn't buy any vehicles without at least some armor plating.

Exactly, could you imagine doing recon in an Abrams? LOL

37 posted on 03/23/2006 8:04:06 PM PST by Echo Talon
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: 91B

Would you have taken a Jeep on any of those missions and felt better?


38 posted on 03/23/2006 8:04:10 PM PST by keithtoo (It's STILL not safe to vote Democrat)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: Echo Talon; Cannoneer No. 4
Without question we should be moving away from the Hummer variants as much as possible in Iraq -

While of course we can't protect ourselves from every possible attack the reality remains there are better alternatives.

The RG-31 is a definite upgrade over our current Hummer variants.....for the roles they are being tasked with.

While the Cougar (and RHINO to a lesser degree) are both much larger vehicles and do not meet all the requirements that our Hummers look to....the reality still remains putting more of these in Iraq is / would have been a good idea.

The RG-31 (or an updated/tweaked U.S. backed version) is definitely the route we should be going.

39 posted on 03/23/2006 8:05:05 PM PST by SevenMinusOne
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: DevSix

I agree. The Hummer was not designed to be blown up. Quit sending them. Send more of the APC variants.


40 posted on 03/23/2006 8:08:51 PM PST by Echo Talon
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 39 | View Replies]

To: Echo Talon
Even the APC variants aren't up to the standard of the RG-31's.
41 posted on 03/23/2006 8:09:43 PM PST by SevenMinusOne
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies]

To: Echo Talon
The point is that it is intended to go into direct combat and frankly who cares what it was intended for? We are on a nondoctrinal battlefield and will probably find ourselves on others for the forseeable future. We shouldn't buy any military vehicles without at least some basic armoring.
42 posted on 03/23/2006 8:11:10 PM PST by 91B (God made man, Sam Colt made men equal.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]

To: keithtoo

I would have felt a hell of a lot better in one of the South African vehicles. The Hummer may be an improvement over a jeep, but that was 20 years ago, better alternatives exist-let's invest in them.


43 posted on 03/23/2006 8:12:46 PM PST by 91B (God made man, Sam Colt made men equal.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies]

To: 91B
Bean counters and loggy toads hate diversity in vehicle fleets, but we don't have a vehicle that does it all and I doubt such a vehicle exists.
44 posted on 03/23/2006 8:13:39 PM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (Our enemies act on ecstatic revelations from their god. We act on the advice of lawyers.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: DevSix

Those of us who have ridden the roads know the shortcomings that the hummer has. I don't know why we are even arguing this thread. In August we had three troops killed by a pressure activated IED that went off under their hummer. The gunner was thrown free and is alive today. The flat bottom of the hummer didn't allow any of the force of the explosion to be "vented" away from the crew. Maybe they still would have died, but the South African vehicle would have improved their survivability.


45 posted on 03/23/2006 8:16:52 PM PST by 91B (God made man, Sam Colt made men equal.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 41 | View Replies]

To: Cannoneer No. 4

I have regretfully come to the conclusion that the US is trying to run this war on the cheap and our service personnel pay the price in blood.


46 posted on 03/23/2006 8:17:49 PM PST by Citizen Tom Paine (An old sailor sends)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: DevSix

French VBL

47 posted on 03/23/2006 8:19:07 PM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (Our enemies act on ecstatic revelations from their god. We act on the advice of lawyers.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 39 | View Replies]

To: 91B

The US military cannot make every vehicle a 60-ton, 8 gallons to the mile vehicle. Reality does not care how much you care.


48 posted on 03/23/2006 8:19:29 PM PST by keithtoo (It's STILL not safe to vote Democrat)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 43 | View Replies]

To: DevSix
Even the APC variants aren't up to the standard of the RG-31's.

thats what i was refering to when i said varient. pick whatever one you want and start sending those and move the Humvees to the rear. :)

49 posted on 03/23/2006 8:19:38 PM PST by Echo Talon
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 41 | View Replies]

To: Cannoneer No. 4

The VBL is actually a ARV - Agile Retreat Vehicle.


50 posted on 03/23/2006 8:20:51 PM PST by keithtoo (It's STILL not safe to vote Democrat)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 47 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-100101-103 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson