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Hummer Deathtraps Suck
Winds of Change ^ | March 24, 2006 | Joe Katzman

Posted on 03/23/2006 6:56:16 PM PST by Cannoneer No. 4

Over at DID, I note that the US military has just begun fielding a new variant of the HMMWV jeep: the M1151 and M1152. Think of them as Hummer v2.1.

The good news is that the new hummers are designed for rapid installation and removal of armor in the field, with minimal tools and support. This greatly simplifies logistics and upgrades, and allows the armor to be removed when it isn't needed so the Hummers will last a little longer (up-armored HMMWV suspensions die quickly due to all the extra weight).

The bad news is that despite the armor improvements, the HMMWV remains trapped in 1980s thinking. It was designed to make use of American auto-industry experience. That's why Ah-nold has a personal fleet to drive around town, and the decision did help lower costs. It's also why the HMMWV was built with a conventional flat bottom and frame.

The thing is, flat bottoms are mine-blast traps. It's possible to provide some protection, but the martial arts equivalent would be a style that requires you to catch the full force of every punch head-on.

Not a huge problem when the only mines around are the ones you're laying in front of advancing Soviet troops. Today? Big problem, which continues to kill Americans, 3 years after Operation Iraqi Freedom began. And the US military procurement system continues to churn out hundreds of millions of dollars worth of up-armored Hummers... that will be left in Iraq afterward, because the extra armor's weight kills their suspensions et. al.

Burning money, burning troops. It's beyond ridiculous - and there is a better way...

The South Africans faced this issue a long time ago. They built vehicles like the Casspir truck et. al. with V-shaped steel hulls that deflect a mine blast to the sides. The mine may blow off the tires, but the occupants have a much better chance of surviving. Australia's similar-sized Bushmaster vehicles use this principle, as do many others nowadays like the German Krauss-Maffei Dingo and the British Iveco Panther. So do smaller vehicles like BAE OMC's RG-31 Nyala. For some vehicles, composite blast panels that can flex rather than breaking add to the protection.

The RG-31 is currently used by the US 101st Airborne, by EOD (explosive ordnance dispoal) and combat engineer units in the US Army and Marines, and by Canadian troops in Afghanistan. The US Army bought about 148 of them last February, at a cost of about $78 million. It's about a foot taller than the up-armored M1114 HMMWV, about two feet longer, and about as wide. It also weighs about 4,000 pounds more, at 16,500 pounds... and is much more likely to protect its occupants when it hits a land mine. The other difference is that 16,500 pounds is what an RG-31 Nyala is supposed to weigh. Which means you don't have to throw them away after a couple of years.

If it's good enough for the EOD folks, and has characteristics very similar to a Hummer, why the heck isn't it in general use when IED land mines remain the main threat in Iraq?

I do not understand why this vehicle, or another survivable solution, has not been priority-designated as the USA's Hummer-replacement designate for the Iraqi theater. No, scratch that. I do understand. I just think the reasons are bulls--t.

The Congressional delegations pushing manufacturing for vehicles and armor add-ons in their districts, even if it's something that won't really protect American troops properly. The bureaucratic mindset that sees "replace the Hummer" as some massive "US Army fleet for the next 30 years" infrastructure project, and so takes 5-10 years just to make a decision because every i must be dotted and every t crossed as some futuristic (and bet on it: very expensive) new vehicle is designed. Why, so you can field it after the conflict is over? What's needed is a priority war project that looks to implement an off-the-shelf alternative or set of alternatives NOW, for use as a vehicle pool in a designated theater. Any sign of that? No.

Sorry, that isn't good enough in wartime. Especially since future wars can be expected to include similar threats.

Yes, I know that even wartime procurement takes time. For example, let's say the US military wanted to buy RG-31 Chargers (its name for them) in quantity, and was prepared to take initial deliveries from South Africa until manufacturing could transition to a US plant. The plant would have to staff up, training and quality levels take time to kick in, suppliers have to make expansions of their own, etc. It would probably be 12-18 months before they would start arriving in any serious quantity (or at least, the quantities America begins to consider 'serious') from South Africa, and about 2-3 years before you could hope to get really serious thousand-or-thousands per year rolling off the production lines established in the USA.

If we're going to offer serious criticism, we have to acknowledge this reality, and address what to do in the interim. Given the number of Hummers to substitute for, it's a multi-year interim of having at least some Hummers in service in Iraq and Afghanistan any way you slice it.

That's why I've been fairly accepting, until now, of the "up-armor the HMMWVs" situation. It was the logical expedient that would get some improved protection to the field fastest, so the largest possible number of troops could benefit.

In fairness (and this is a scary thought), the Pentagon and all its well-chronicled procurement deficiencies is still a step up on most militaries. It has put some RG-31 vehicles in the field, as well as much bigger Cougar armored trucks (also with V-hulls) and the related Buffalo mine-removal vehicle, plus some M117 Guardian armored security vehicles. It has also done well in quickly iterating a fleet of small mine-disposal robots like the TALON, iRobot, MarcBOT IV, etc. Even the Brits look at these robots, and stuff like the Buffalo and its monster claw, and they're jealous of the USA's willingness and ability to get this kind of "shiny new kit" to their troops in just a couple of years.

Having said that, much more could and arguably should have been done. These are all fine ancillaries. But they are ancillaries. Sure, there's a major IED task force and lots of new side equipment. Yet even the experts acknowledge that there's no technical solution or set of solutions which will remove the threat. If IED land mines are going to be a feature of life, maybe the place to start is in making sure that the Army's main ride is designed to cope.

That's why I'm disappointed that other obvious 'fast-patch' options which would directly replace Hummers have been neglected. And I'm even more disappointed that the Army is still relying on Hummers as the main ride it's still buying in quantity, not just the main ride it's using.

There were options. There still are options.

Could the USA have rewarded its Australian allies for their help, and bought even a small order of 250 larger, V-hulled Bushmasters for use instead of Hummers in higher-threat zones like Baghdad, for convoy duty from Kuwait, or for zones near Australian forces who have also been using it in Iraq? Yes, absolutely. Good diplomacy, good for the troops, offers an immediate improvement and a tryout opportunity for larger things. If it proves effective and competitive vs. other alternatives, order more. If something else becomes "the big standard" later, give them to the US Homeland Security department where they'll be very useful along the southern border.

Then there's Rhino Runner ultra-armored bus, which transported Donald Rumsfeld during a Baghdad visit in 2004. As this DID articles notes, the small firm who makes them, wouldn't give the Pentagon $500,000 worth of free buses to get shot up in testing with zero recompense and zero guarantee of future orders. Hence no approval. Some security contractors in Iraq are smart enough to use them.

Some M113 tracked armored personnel carriers are serving in Iraq, and have received pretty decent reviews - read this one. Those who use them don't want a Hummer instead. Now, the kicker: there are a couple thousand M113s currently sitting idle in US storage. For not very much money, you could add spall lining, floor armor, gun shields, slat armor "cages," then equip them with the same communications gear the new Hummers get. For rather more money (about $750,000 each), you could fit them with quiet hybrid drives (quiet is a big asset in urban combat), rubber band tracks that are quiet and will not damage roads while preserving off-road mobility, slat/reactive armor, gun shields, spall linings and floor armor, and upgraded communications, plus any other refurbishment needed.

Would these upgraded "M113A4" vehicles survive IED attacks as well as a Stryker? No, and that isn't the comparison I'd make. The Strykers have performed better than I expected in Iraq, and they have features even an upgraded M113 would lack. But Strykers cost $3.5 million each and are organized in totally new brigade formations, as integral "Styker Brigade Combat Teams." Great. What do you do for all the soldiers who aren't in one? "Give them Hummers" is the wrong answer.

Would upgraded M113s be a big improvement over the Hummers for other Army units, due to better mine resistance and RPG protection? Yes. Deliverable quickly, in numbers? Yes. Would they be better than the Marines' AA7 Amtracs amphibious tracked behicles? Yes, and having Marines use M113s in theater instead would save wear on the very old but uniquely amphibious Amtracs. Could the M113s be returned to the USA afterward, for use in future on the Mexican border or elsewhere? Yes. Could they be given to the Iraqis later, as a cheap and effective mechanized force nucleus at half the price of any comparable alternative? Yes.

Meanwhile, Cougar and RG-31 production could be ramped up, giving US forces durable, serious rides that would improve the force mix as they arrived in quantity about now. If, that is, the Pentagon had got off its butt on this early with a more serious plan.

Instead of that scenario, the US military has actively choked M113 use, favouring the Hummers - and doesn't seem to be moving with a lot of urgency on other fronts either. Cougars and RG-31, which have the potential to be mainstream transports in-theater, are bought in small quantities for EOD units. Evaluation of Hummer alternatives is not a priority. And over a billion dollars worth of throwaway new Hummers are headed off the production line. Wonderful.

Up-armored Hummers may be an improvement if you're the Iraqi Army, riding in unmodified pickups. They may be an improvement for other allies on the ground. They'll help you survive heavy small arms fire, or small IEDs, which is better than a Ford F150 or a basic Land Rover will do. Fine. Give the Iraqis or other allies the Hummers for their use, as American alternatives are fielded. But have a dammned alternative already.

I'm starting to move past disappointment to anger that the HMMWV is still seen as the mainstay wheeled ride for Iraq. US troops need and deserve a better ride, in numbers, that makes the "up-armored Hummer" the temporary - and partial - expedient that it always should have been.

Final point. I understand that shaped-charge devices sent in from Iran and larger IED land mines will blow a hole through any HMMWV-sized vehicle no matter what, and most larger ones as well. The Israelis have even lost a couple 60-ton Merkava-3 tanks to such tactics.

Nothing is foolproof.

But there is value in setting the bar higher, and offering more protection. Else why have protection at all? Especially when that protection is already on the market, and proven.

US policy and its defense procurement system have set the bar pretty low for their troops' primary ride in a war zone, and it's not looking like a field expedient any more. That's a decision that has cost lives, and will cost lives. It's a decision that needs to be reversed, and replaced with a serious plan to make the Hummer history in America's theaters of war.


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; US: Indiana; US: Ohio; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: humvee; ied; iraq; oif; uparmoredhumvee; wheeledarmor
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To: Cannoneer No. 4

Yeah, buy something different and God forbid that maintenance has to order different parts for it. I'd be satisfied if we just bought big SUVs off the production line from one of the big three and modified them post production for our needs (better than trying to make the hummer be the jack of all trades).


51 posted on 03/23/2006 8:21:22 PM PST by 91B (God made man, Sam Colt made men equal.)
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To: keithtoo

We can't even make sure that every vehicle can stop small arms rounds? I'm glad guys like you had my back while I was in the desert < /sarcasm>


52 posted on 03/23/2006 8:23:06 PM PST by 91B (God made man, Sam Colt made men equal.)
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To: Cannoneer No. 4

See Post #22, certainly matches the reports that I have seen from soldiers and commanders and discussions I have had with same. I think he is spot on, except for the comment on the ASV, and his unit didn't have any of those. ASV armor is insufficient, wasn't designed for the IED fight.

Also, be careful with pictures of burning HMMWV's, many of them burn after the crew has walked away unharmed. Ask BG Karl Horst.

We are sending Buffalos, RG31s, and Cougars into Iraq and Afghanistan as fast as they roll off the assembly line. Don't know if we can increase production by going to other manufacturers.


53 posted on 03/23/2006 8:25:15 PM PST by centurion316 (Democrats - Al Qaida's Best Friends)
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To: Echo Talon

"Exactly, could you imagine doing recon in an Abrams? LOL"

Yes, that is what Armored Cav does...

and well too I might add (but I hold a bit of bias here).

regards,


54 posted on 03/23/2006 8:25:29 PM PST by Thunder 6
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To: keithtoo

I saw them in Bagram. They're like an amphibious armored jeep. Same firepower as an M1114, much narrower, fits down alleys.


55 posted on 03/23/2006 8:27:46 PM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (Our enemies act on ecstatic revelations from their god. We act on the advice of lawyers.)
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To: DevSix

Turkish Cobra

56 posted on 03/23/2006 8:29:53 PM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (Our enemies act on ecstatic revelations from their god. We act on the advice of lawyers.)
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To: Cannoneer No. 4

But.. But...
Princess DI and the Hollywood Left told us they STOPPED the use of landmines!!

How could this BEeeeee!


57 posted on 03/23/2006 8:30:29 PM PST by tcrlaf
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To: 91B; keithtoo
Baloney, the scout platoon in the Mech Infantry battalion I was in several years ago used the Hummers for recon and screening.

Good point. The antitank platoons of the Army's light infantry battalions also use Hummers for mounting TOW missiles.

58 posted on 03/23/2006 8:33:18 PM PST by neverdem (May you be in heaven a half hour before the devil knows that you're dead.)
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To: DevSix

Italian Puma

59 posted on 03/23/2006 8:34:37 PM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (Our enemies act on ecstatic revelations from their god. We act on the advice of lawyers.)
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To: Cannoneer No. 4
My experience along with others I trust say the RG-31 is the route to go at the present time - Of course coming up with a modified U.S. version would be preferable down the road.
60 posted on 03/23/2006 8:35:03 PM PST by SevenMinusOne
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To: Gordongekko909

The humvee was designed to replace a jeep, not an Abrams!


61 posted on 03/23/2006 8:36:36 PM PST by Toby06 (<----cereal monogamist)
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To: Echo Talon

This wouldn't do well either.
62 posted on 03/23/2006 8:38:03 PM PST by armymarinemom (My sons freed Iraqi and Afghan Honor Roll students.)
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To: 91B
We shouldn't buy any military vehicles without at least some basic armoring.

HMMWV Mission Provide a common light tactical vehicle capability. Replaced the quarter-ton jeep, M718A1 ambulance, half-ton Mule, 1.25-ton Gamma Goat, and M792 ambulance.

I agree, that basic armor should be on all vehicles IF it can fit the mission type.

63 posted on 03/23/2006 8:38:46 PM PST by Echo Talon
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To: Cannoneer No. 4

This is a topic that can be discussed forvever, and never answer the question...because I think it is impossible to build/field a vehicle that can do everything for everyone.

The bottom line in Iraq is that the war differs from one TF sector to another. What my TF saw as far as the threat, terrain, weather, etc...was different than the one 80km to the north, or the one across the Tigris from me, or south.

We lost tanks and a Brad to stacked AT mines in addition to the dozen or more HMMWV's coded out. These (the Hummers)were due to IED's and VBIED's. We saw bigger IED's as the tour wore on as the bad guys adapted. The point has been taken that you can armor a vehicle (or a soldier) to the point where it/he can't move.

About a million years ago I was in the 9th Infantry Division (Motorized) at Ft. Lewis, where we expected to die gloriously fighting the Russian hordes in unarmored HMMWV's and dune buggies (FAV's). It was said then, and I still believe:

If you can be seen, you can be hit. If you can be hit, you can be killed. Better not to be seen.

Regards,


64 posted on 03/23/2006 8:40:56 PM PST by Thunder 6
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To: Thunder 6

doing recon in a loud a** abrams is a hell of way to be stealthy. :)


65 posted on 03/23/2006 8:42:40 PM PST by Echo Talon
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To: COEXERJ145
And the M-1 crew probably walked away unhurt despite the tank being pretty well destroyed.

I wish I could confirm that. In Vietnam, we always sat on top of the APCs or stood up inside with the cargo hatch open because of the fear that if we hit a mine, then someone sitting inside the track would break their necks after their heads hit was overhead.

66 posted on 03/23/2006 8:43:02 PM PST by neverdem (May you be in heaven a half hour before the devil knows that you're dead.)
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To: centurion316
That's Joe Katzman's picture. I don't know its provenance.

ASV's do worse than HMMWV's?

67 posted on 03/23/2006 8:44:15 PM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (Our enemies act on ecstatic revelations from their god. We act on the advice of lawyers.)
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To: Thunder 6
If you can be seen, you can be hit. If you can be hit, you can be killed. Better not to be seen.

Damn true -

68 posted on 03/23/2006 8:44:27 PM PST by SevenMinusOne
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To: Echo Talon

True enough...but damn, we looked good doing it! :)
Regards,


69 posted on 03/23/2006 8:44:33 PM PST by Thunder 6
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To: armymarinemom

I bet that guy wishes he has a humvee! :)


70 posted on 03/23/2006 8:44:37 PM PST by Echo Talon
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To: neverdem

If this is the M-1 that was blown up a couple of weeks ago, then the crew escaped without injury. If it is a different tank, than I have no idea.


71 posted on 03/23/2006 8:46:02 PM PST by COEXERJ145 (Real Leaders Base Their Decisions on Their Convictions. Wannabes Base Decisions on the Latest Poll.)
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To: Thunder 6

Would you like to see the Up Armored HMMWV replaced?
If so, what would you recommend?


72 posted on 03/23/2006 8:50:58 PM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (Our enemies act on ecstatic revelations from their god. We act on the advice of lawyers.)
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To: ryan71

RG-32M

73 posted on 03/23/2006 9:01:24 PM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (Our enemies act on ecstatic revelations from their god. We act on the advice of lawyers.)
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To: SFC Chromey
Drove around in 113's in Germany in the 70's. Good vehicle. Maintenance heavy. Could use rubber shoe pads on the tracks to save wear and tear on streets. Lots of maintenance. For 1 hour in use about 2-5 hours doing PM and scheduled maintenance. Remember, the 113 is made from rolled aluminum. IF it is buttoned up and a round comes through, RUMORINT says it would come in one side and suck out a crewman on the other. Still, all in all, the 113 is a hell of a vehicle. (So was the Sherman, but what fool would take a Sherman to war today?)
74 posted on 03/23/2006 9:03:52 PM PST by truemiester (If the U.S. should fail, a veil of darkness will come over the Earth for a thousand years)
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To: Cannoneer No. 4

The M1114 was okay for most missions we did. I would have preferred the Strykers the guys north of me had. We did use M113's for some missions too (Engineer route clearance), but got those guys into M1114's and M1025 AOA's as soon as we could. I would have liked the Buffalo's and Cougar's the Engineer (Division and Corps Level) route clearace units were using.

The Stryker could be fielded alot quicker (disclaimer here, this is NOT official army thinking) if we didn't have to stick all the gee-whiz C4ISR stuff in them, or that goofy Koenigburg sight on top. Put the standard C3I Suite in them, and get them to the BDE's NOW. Or better yet, buy some LAV III's with the 25mm turrets from the Canucks. The damned things don't have to fly over there in a C130, to that excuse for not buying them is useless. Add on armor can be used for the same reason...not ONE Stryker vehicle has been moved into MNB-N sector via air.

LAV armor (which can be added to), a 25 mm turreted gun, and a squad of infantry in back.

It's a start.

Regards,


75 posted on 03/23/2006 9:07:52 PM PST by Thunder 6
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To: SFC Chromey

Oryx

76 posted on 03/23/2006 9:11:19 PM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (Our enemies act on ecstatic revelations from their god. We act on the advice of lawyers.)
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To: Thunder 6
Without all the gee-whiz C4ISR stuff the Army could have bought Ukrainian BTR-90's a lot cheaper.

LAV III's are too much like Marine LAV's. The Army will never buy them.

77 posted on 03/23/2006 9:24:59 PM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (Our enemies act on ecstatic revelations from their god. We act on the advice of lawyers.)
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To: Thunder 6

78 posted on 03/23/2006 9:30:39 PM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (Our enemies act on ecstatic revelations from their god. We act on the advice of lawyers.)
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To: Cannoneer No. 4

We used them for surrogate Strykers when fielding the SBCT. It is pretty impressive.

Regards,


79 posted on 03/23/2006 9:38:56 PM PST by Thunder 6
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To: Toby06

I'm going to defer, because like I said, I don't know jack about this.


80 posted on 03/23/2006 10:29:09 PM PST by Gordongekko909 (I know. Let's cut his WHOLE BODY off.)
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To: operation clinton cleanup

my Baby.......


81 posted on 03/23/2006 10:30:23 PM PST by marmar (Pray for our Warriors...they are the greatest there are............)
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To: Echo Talon

That's doctrine. Iraq is a non-doctrinal battlefield (so is Afghanistan and so was Somalia). Who cares what it was intended for-the real question is: what is it being used for? Buy the vehicle with steel plate and ballistic glass so that it resists small arms fire. If a better alternative exists (i.e. the South African vehicle with the v shaped hull) buy it instead. GIs are suffering because the HMMWV is a POS.


82 posted on 03/24/2006 4:10:22 AM PST by 91B (God made man, Sam Colt made men equal.)
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To: plustaticman; murdocj

A Stryker vehicle with 4th Squadron, 14th Cavalry Regiment, provides security while other soldiers conduct an area reconnaissance mission through the town of Rawah, in the Al Anbar Province, Iraq, March 16, 2006, during Operation Iraqi Freedom. U.S. Marine Corps photo by Lance Cpl. Andrew D. Young

M1127 Stryker Reconnaissance Vehicle

83 posted on 03/24/2006 5:10:40 AM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (Our enemies act on ecstatic revelations from their god. We act on the advice of lawyers.)
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To: Cannoneer No. 4

The problem is finding a line of equipment that is versatile enough to function in light wars and heavy wars and IED wars. Just as soon as you sink billions into IED proof vehicles someone's gonna start a war that requires light, fast, and durable.

Foolproof, fast IED detection would be a neat direction to go. That would take the IED strategy entirely away from them.


84 posted on 03/24/2006 5:15:17 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It. Pray for Our Troops!)
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To: Cannoneer No. 4

I don't recognize the picture, so don't know the details. Just saying that AIF like to show videos of burning vehicles and feed the MSM with stories of Americans dying. Many times these are bogus reports - no casualties, just one less HMMWV left in the world.

The 100 lb brain guys are saying yes, at least for the fight today. Remember why the requirement was written.


85 posted on 03/24/2006 6:45:03 AM PST by centurion316 (Democrats - Al Qaida's Best Friends)
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To: Cannoneer No. 4
Oh...at first glance of the headline, I thought this story might be about something different...


86 posted on 03/24/2006 6:47:21 AM PST by beezdotcom
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To: Cannoneer No. 4
I don't understand why so many here are resistant to our dumping the hummer in favor of another vehicle like the RG-31 (which I always thought was the Buffalo, but I guess not-they are South African made though, right?).

There is no good reason why we have to stay with a vehicle that doesn't do the job as well as an alternative. All of our vehicles should come with at least some steel plating and ballistic glass. Why is that reasoning defective? War requires adaptation and we shouldn't be so wedded to doctrine that it hurts us.

I don't care what the hummer was "intended" for, it is vulnerable in the mission that it has. Other vehicles can carry out the same mission that the hummer has doctrinally and are less vulnerable in other capacities. Every day soldiers roll out the gate more vulnerable than they should be, but many on this thread seem not to care so much about that as they do about retaining our hummer fleet (WTF?!?)

87 posted on 03/24/2006 7:10:22 AM PST by 91B (God made man, Sam Colt made men equal.)
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To: 91B
RG-31 started out in South Africa. The Rhodesians created a lot of home-made mine resistant vehicles in the '70's and the South Africans used those ideas in the '80's and now they are the leaders in mine resistant vehicles.

This is a Buffalo, made in South Carolina.

88 posted on 03/24/2006 7:53:17 AM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (Our enemies act on ecstatic revelations from their god. We act on the advice of lawyers.)
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To: xzins
Soldiers, Marines Team Up in ‘Trailblazer’ Patrols
89 posted on 03/24/2006 8:06:15 AM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (Our enemies act on ecstatic revelations from their god. We act on the advice of lawyers.)
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To: xzins

Joint IED Neutralizer

90 posted on 03/24/2006 8:20:47 AM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (Our enemies act on ecstatic revelations from their god. We act on the advice of lawyers.)
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To: Cannoneer No. 4

Robots, neutralizers, lasers, rays and detectors is exactly what I had in mind.

Defeat the strategy itself, and you don't have to configure equipment that can survive the strategy.

Despite what anyone says, we'll still have need for light fast transport of troops on some future battlefield.


91 posted on 03/24/2006 8:41:18 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It. Pray for Our Troops!)
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To: Cannoneer No. 4
They built vehicles like the Casspir truck et. al. with V-shaped steel hulls that deflect a mine blast to the sides. The mine may blow off the tires, but the occupants have a much better chance of surviving.

Makes sense. What about ground clearance?

92 posted on 03/24/2006 8:44:27 AM PST by Aquinasfan (When you find "Sola Scriptura" in the Bible, let me know)
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To: Cannoneer No. 4
Has anyone bothered to inform this guy that IEDs are not landmines and typically aren't detonated under the vehicle!?
93 posted on 03/24/2006 8:45:11 AM PST by TChris ("Wake up, America. This is serious." - Ben Stein)
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To: Aquinasfan
What about ground clearance?
94 posted on 03/24/2006 10:17:36 AM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (Our enemies act on ecstatic revelations from their god. We act on the advice of lawyers.)
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To: Cannoneer No. 4
What about ground clearance?

I'd think that would be an issue with v-shaped hulls.

95 posted on 03/24/2006 10:25:33 AM PST by Aquinasfan (When you find "Sola Scriptura" in the Bible, let me know)
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To: TChris

More and more they are. Haji adapts to our countermeasures by doing stuff like creating pressure activated IEDs which we trigger when we roll over them. The author understands the reality of parolling in Iraq better than most of his critics.


96 posted on 03/24/2006 12:06:24 PM PST by 91B (God made man, Sam Colt made men equal.)
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To: Citizen Tom Paine

It took you this long ...


97 posted on 03/24/2006 1:43:44 PM PST by SubGeniusX
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To: marmar
Hi marmar! more babies...


98 posted on 03/24/2006 2:59:14 PM PST by operation clinton cleanup
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To: operation clinton cleanup
This is a Bentwater's tail # isn't it. I looks familiar.
99 posted on 03/24/2006 11:00:21 PM PST by marmar (Pray for our Warriors...they are the greatest there are............)
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To: SubGeniusX; murdocj; SLB
Army Demo Reviews Vehicles That May Provide Soldiers Better Protection

Bushmaster meets the competition in the US

The Army is looking at off-the-shelf vehicles

Armored Humvee replacement competition

Hummer Deathtraps Suck: Take 2

100 posted on 03/29/2006 8:05:14 PM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (Our enemies act on ecstatic revelations from their god. We act on the advice of lawyers.)
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