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Nation sees a sharp drop in gun dealers
Star Tribune ^ | March 22, 2006 | Kevin Diaz

Posted on 03/24/2006 12:38:44 AM PST by neverdem

'Kitchen table' dealers -- those operating out of their homes -- are getting squeezed between federal laws and local zoning codes. The impact on illegal gun-trafficking is debatable.

WASHINGTON -- In a little-noticed victory for gun control advocates in Minnesota and across the nation, the number of gun dealers in the United States has plummeted 78 percent in the past 10 years as tens of thousands of home-based dealers surrendered their federal licenses. The drop shows how the gun debate has moved from a national stage -- where gun control advocates lost congressional battles to ban assault weapons and to sue gun manufacturers -- to local zoning boards that are creating a growing web of fees and regulations that indirectly restrict firearms sales.

"The gun control agenda has evolved from the halls of Congress and the courts," said Andrew Arulanandam, director of public affairs for the National Rifle Association (NRA). "Now we're seeing it evolve to the micro level in local municipalities."

But what looks like welcome news to gun opponents might just have driven gun sales off the books, as fewer personal gun sales are logged, vetted and tracked by the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF).

Whether that has led to more illegal gun trafficking is open to debate.

"Most of these guys [who are no longer licensed] were just home-based dealers who did gun shows on the weekends as a part-time job," said Mark Koscielski, who is fighting a zoning battle to hold on as the last remaining gun store in Minneapolis. "Now they revert to private collectors, so they're free to sell without federal background checks. They're private sales."

Once more numerous than gas stations, people who held the government's most basic gun-dealer license totaled nearly a quarter-million in 1994. Last year, the...

(Excerpt) Read more at startribune.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Extended News; Government; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections; US: District of Columbia; US: Minnesota
KEYWORDS: atf; banglist; batfe; libertarians
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Panel OKs easing concealed gun rules (DE)

Daniels signs bill on lethal defense (IN)

mms://media.streamtoyou.com/nra/ktvu300k.wmv

http://www.nraila.org/media/video/abcnews.mpg

Those appear to be the URL addresses of videos from the New Orleans gun confiscation, but I don't know how to write the code to link or play them. I found it at the NRA-ILA, here where they can be played.

1 posted on 03/24/2006 12:38:48 AM PST by neverdem
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To: DaveLoneRanger; Travis McGee; Mr. Mojo; Joe Brower

ping


2 posted on 03/24/2006 12:49:33 AM PST by freepatriot32 (Holding you head high & voting Libertarian is better then holding your nose and voting republican)
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To: albertp; Allosaurs_r_us; Abram; AlexandriaDuke; Americanwolf; Annie03; Baby Bear; bassmaner; ...
Libertarian ping.To be added or removed from my ping list freepmail me or post a message here
3 posted on 03/24/2006 12:50:05 AM PST by freepatriot32 (Holding you head high & voting Libertarian is better then holding your nose and voting republican)
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To: neverdem
From the article: "... the number of gun dealers in the United States has plummeted 78 percent in the past 10 years".

If the government sends jack-booted-thugs to investigate every instance of issuing library cards, the number of libraries will also shrink. If they burn down the buildings and kill all the occupants, they will have even more effect.

4 posted on 03/24/2006 12:53:15 AM PST by William Tell (RKBA for California (rkba.members.sonic.net) - Volunteer by contacting Dave at rkba@sonic.net)
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To: neverdem
Gun sales are way past the point of ridiculous!

I picked up a couple of .22's (from two different stores) a couple of weeks ago and COULD NOT BELIEVE the paperwork required. They made me feel like I was purchasing an atomic bomb and would not let me hold the rifle box until I had been officially escorted to the parking lot!

One of the purchases was at Walmart, the other at Gander Mountain.

I also don't see how the stores can even make a profit on gun sales. The .22 from Walmart cost me $99 and I'm sure that the employee time to do all of the paperwork and jump through all of the hoops more than ate up any profit margin that Walmart should have gotten.

The second amendment (like the rest of the constitution) is just a bunch of words on paper now and has really become meaningless.
5 posted on 03/24/2006 12:54:09 AM PST by politicket
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To: Joe Brower; Travis McGee; El Gato; Squantos; Eaker; PoorMuttly; Shooter 2.5; risk; Mulder; ...

Someone asked me about the New Orleans confiscation videos. I forgot who it was. I would appreciate any help I can get to spread the info.


6 posted on 03/24/2006 1:07:28 AM PST by neverdem (May you be in heaven a half hour before the devil knows that you're dead.)
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To: neverdem

We stopped selling guns last year. For us it wasn't the laws, it was declining profits that has virtually killed the industry.


7 posted on 03/24/2006 1:41:09 AM PST by kingu (Liberalism: The art of sticking your fingers in your ears and going NANANANA..)
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To: neverdem
Someone asked me about the New Orleans confiscation videos. I forgot who it was. I would appreciate any help I can get to spread the info.

Click the picture:

I closed my firearms business in 2002, after 19 years of fighting ever-metastatizing costs, fees, laws, regulations, and zoning changes. It just was not worth it.

And article I read in American Firearms Industry ( google it ) in the late 1990's claimed 3 out of 4 FFL businesses closed due to ever-increasing hassles, during Clintoon's corrupt reign.

More taxes, regulation, hassles=less business. Who'd a thunk it?

8 posted on 03/24/2006 2:27:11 AM PST by backhoe (-30-)
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To: neverdem

Looks like Clinton's agenda for gun dealers has been continued by Bush. Guess Bush agrees with Clinton on this one.


9 posted on 03/24/2006 2:29:23 AM PST by Modok
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To: neverdem
I had a few friends who had FFLs. None do now because of what's in the article.

Then is a small family gun shop in town that is very friendly. Generally I see something I want in the Shot Gun News and take it down there and point it out. They order it and handle the paperwork for a small fee.

I "reward" that service by giving them the rest of my gun related business.
10 posted on 03/24/2006 2:31:16 AM PST by PeteB570 (Guns, what real men want for Christmas)
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To: neverdem
"In a little-noticed victory for gun control advocates in Minnesota and across the nation, the number of gun dealers in the United States has plummeted 78 percent in the past 10 years as tens of thousands of home-based dealers surrendered their federal licenses."

So, the ones that survive after their small-time competitors have been thrown out of business will be dealing with more business and higher revenues. Exactly how does the MSM call this a victory for gun-grabbers if the business of selling guns legally suddenly becomes more profitable? Do they somehow think that demand tracks to the numbers of suppliers?

11 posted on 03/24/2006 2:35:49 AM PST by muir_redwoods (Free Sirhan Sirhan, after all, the bastard who killed Mary Jo Kopechne is walking around free)
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To: PeteB570
I've known LEO's who had an FFL just because they were collectors. They gave them up because there was a constant barrage of letters threatening legal action against them because they were "dealers". Because of this they just gave up the licenses. Their situation was really know different than the person who buys and sells too many cars for personal use, but needs to register as a used car dealer. However the used car dealer doesn't get constantly threatened with nationwide class action suits.
12 posted on 03/24/2006 3:12:51 AM PST by Woodman ("One of the most striking differences between a cat and a lie is that a cat has only nine lives." PW)
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To: neverdem
Sherry Duval, of the St. Paul ATF office, said gun dealers are like any class of sellers. "I'd love to tell you they're all legitimate, just like I'd like to tell you every car dealer is legitimate. Our job is to find the ones who are not."

Duval said the federal gun dealer's license was never intended to be a "personal collector's license."

It's amazing to find someone at BATFE who doesn't know what a C&R license is for.

Or maybe it's not.

13 posted on 03/24/2006 3:47:15 AM PST by George Smiley (This tagline deliberately targeted journalists.)
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To: neverdem

The numbers really started dropping when Clinton raised the cost of the license tremendously. Now, does everyone know what happens to the dealers records when he "surrenders" his license? They get sent to the BATF. What do you think the BATF is doing with the records of every firearm transaction? Sounds like they had a plan all along, doesn't it.


14 posted on 03/24/2006 5:37:35 AM PST by jim_trent
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To: AAABEST; wku man; SLB; Travis McGee; Squantos; Shooter 2.5; The Old Hoosier; xrp; freedomlover; ...
Not good.

Click the Gadsden flag for pro-gun resources!

15 posted on 03/24/2006 6:01:35 AM PST by Joe Brower (The Constitution defines Conservatism. *NRA*)
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To: Joe Brower

See my #8.


16 posted on 03/24/2006 6:09:30 AM PST by backhoe
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To: politicket

"The .22 from Walmart cost me $99 and I'm sure that the employee time to do all of the paperwork and jump through all of the hoops more than ate up any profit margin that Walmart should have gotten."

Retail sales force efficiency still escapes WalMart. They're there more to re-stock the shelves with the goods people scatter all over the store.


17 posted on 03/24/2006 6:12:23 AM PST by Rebelbase
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To: neverdem

bah, 90% of those "kitchen table" guys that had their FFL, did 90% of their "business" for self, family and friends and rarely turned a profit. having an FFL allowed you to get the "dealer" discounts, and you could get everything mailed right to you. also, when there's so many more "small time" dealers, the bigger shops have to keep their prices down to compete with mail order shops. now that these dealers are gone, shops can jack up their prices and not worry about mail order, knowing that if you want something from mail-order, you have to goto them, and they can charge you a $25 fee for 5 minutes of work.


18 posted on 03/24/2006 6:22:23 AM PST by absolootezer0 ("My God, why have you forsaken us.. no wait, its the liberals that have forsaken you... my bad")
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To: jim_trent
You get it. This was started under the auspices of folks like Lloyd Bentsen and Janet Reno during the Clinton Administration, for the express purpose of shutting down most gun dealers.

Considering that the same administration was sitting on a database of NICS data over 6 months old which was supposed to have been discarded within 24 hours. There is no doubt in my mind that their intent was to create a registry of firearms and/or owners, and that may continue to this day, albeit illegally.

The yellowsheet data from smaller dealers now defunct contributes greatly, no doubt.

Many others are being pushed out of storefront operations by insurance costs, which is the reason one hardware store in my town no longer has firearms, and they used to have the best selection.

19 posted on 03/24/2006 6:27:29 AM PST by Smokin' Joe (How often God must weep at humans' folly.)
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To: neverdem
"The drop shows how the gun debate has moved from a national stage -- where gun control advocates lost congressional battles to ban assault weapons and to sue gun manufacturers -- to local zoning boards that are creating a growing web of fees and regulations that indirectly restrict firearms sales."

Time for more "state pre-emption" legislation to forbid this kind of BS.

20 posted on 03/24/2006 6:31:54 AM PST by Wonder Warthog (The Hog of Steel)
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To: muir_redwoods
"Do they somehow think that demand tracks to the numbers of suppliers?"

Yup--that's exactly what they think.

21 posted on 03/24/2006 6:34:34 AM PST by Wonder Warthog (The Hog of Steel)
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To: politicket

"I also don't see how the stores can even make a profit on gun sales. The .22 from Walmart cost me $99 and I'm sure that the employee time to do all of the paperwork and jump through all of the hoops more than ate up any profit margin that Walmart should have gotten."

If your walmart is anything like the ones near me, they paid that employee almost nothing because hes an illegal. The jokes on you because you tax money is supporting his kids, who don't learn enligh.


22 posted on 03/24/2006 6:38:06 AM PST by RHINO369
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To: absolootezer0
90% of their "business" for self, family and friends

If I were to add me, my family, and all my friends who shoot, I could probably open a storefront business--all those "little" dealers made it that much tougher to go after the bigger ones.

Get them out of the way, and the effort can be concentrated on just a relatively few retail outlets, instead of all those little guys.

No matter how you look at it, there is a strategy here. Remember this got its start under the Clintons.

23 posted on 03/24/2006 6:41:20 AM PST by Smokin' Joe (How often God must weep at humans' folly.)
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To: neverdem
The ATF estimated that in 1992 as many as 74 percent of Type 1 federal firearms licenses
-- the basic license to sell guns -- were used to operate out of residences.

That number is now down to slightly more than 50 percent.

Bill Clinton burned down a church
and murdered 78 human beings
to get rid of just one Type 1 FFL in Waco Texas.
b'shem Y'shua
24 posted on 03/24/2006 6:57:50 AM PST by Uri’el-2012 (Trust in YHvH forever, for the LORD, YHvH is the Rock eternal. (Isaiah 26:4))
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To: neverdem

Screw them! I am bucking the trend, as I am finishing building a gunshop at my place. No zoning and the mayor is helping me acquire tax rebates from the state. Pick your place wisely. Do not set up a libertarian bookstore in a 1960's Red Square!


25 posted on 03/24/2006 6:58:12 AM PST by ExpatGator (Progressivism: A polyp on the colon politic.)
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To: Joe Brower
No. Really not good.

Things are coming to a head. This isn't the only straw on the camels back...

26 posted on 03/24/2006 7:04:20 AM PST by Dead Corpse (I believe that all government is evil, and that trying to improve it is largely a waste of time.)
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To: jim_trent
Hi All-

"...Now, does everyone know what happens to the dealers records when he "surrenders" his license? They get sent to the BATF. What do you think the BATF is doing with the records of every firearm transaction? Sounds like they had a plan all along, doesn't it..."


If I was sitting at my breakfast table reading the newspaper over coffee and learned the doors of a BATFE vehicle transporting 4473's unlatched and thousands of records blew all over the highway during a torrential rainstorm...it wouldn't make me sad. Is it wrong of me to say that?

~ Blue Jays ~

27 posted on 03/24/2006 7:09:16 AM PST by Blue Jays (Rock Hard, Ride Free)
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To: Woodman
However the used car dealer doesn't get constantly threatened with nationwide class action suits.

They're next. You can count on it.

28 posted on 03/24/2006 7:16:16 AM PST by Badray
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To: neverdem
This is not a new issue. The writing was on the wall when the BATF raised the fees from $30 to something like $500 for the Class III or something like that...happened years ago. It doesn't really matter, except as a symptom of the greater evil.
29 posted on 03/24/2006 7:16:28 AM PST by ExSoldier (Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on dinner. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.)
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To: Gaffer

ping 14


30 posted on 03/24/2006 7:16:31 AM PST by B4Ranch (What has an alimentary canal, a big appetite at one end & no sense of responsibility at the other.)
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To: jim_trent

My advice is do not mention that you own specific unregistered firearms on the Internet. Buy your ammo for these firearms with cash.

Make it difficult for them to track your unregistered firearms to you!


31 posted on 03/24/2006 7:21:01 AM PST by B4Ranch (What has an alimentary canal, a big appetite at one end & no sense of responsibility at the other.)
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To: neverdem

This is all about the deliberate destruction of the "gun culture."


32 posted on 03/24/2006 7:23:17 AM PST by Atlas Sneezed (Your FRiendly FReeper Patent Attorney)
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To: neverdem

In a free country there would be no license. Everyone should enjoy the right to keep and bear arms. If a criminal cannot be trusted with one after they served their time then maybe they shouldn't be out of jail. I mean, we release people we do not trust into our population.


33 posted on 03/24/2006 7:24:13 AM PST by CodeToad
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To: Smokin' Joe
90% of their "business" for self, family and friends

i wasn't saying this was a bad thing, i actually thought it was good. it kept prices down. the clinton stratgey wasn't just to make it easier to inspect dealers, it was also done knowing that prices would be driven up. drive prices up and fewer items will be sold, fewer items sold will drive prices up further. eventually, more shops would go out of business and fewer guns would be sold.
its the walmart business scheme. low prices until there's no competition, then prices all go up. but unlike walmart, people don't "need" guns the way they need food. its using a simple business scheme to enact another small measure of gun control.
34 posted on 03/24/2006 7:25:25 AM PST by absolootezer0 ("My God, why have you forsaken us.. no wait, its the liberals that have forsaken you... my bad")
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To: CodeToad
I mean, we release people we do not trust into our population.

We also have 536 of them in Washington, DC and for some reason, most of them continually get sent back again and again and again...

35 posted on 03/24/2006 7:26:20 AM PST by xrp (Fox News Channel: MISSING WHITE GIRL NETWORK)
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To: neverdem

Consolidation in the industry. Nothing more, nothing less.


36 posted on 03/24/2006 7:28:45 AM PST by Clemenza (I Just Wasn't Made for These Times)
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To: William Tell

This is NOT good news.

Guns are a legal commodity - they are not drugs or porn.

But the far left-wing has succeeded in painting them as such in the mind of the public and the educational establishment is raising generations of young Americans to beleive there is no legitimate use or right for a firearm.

And where is Mr. Gonzales in this situation? Where is the Bush Administration?


37 posted on 03/24/2006 7:29:59 AM PST by ZULU (Non nobis, non nobis, Domine, sed nomini tuo da gloriam. God, guts, and guns made America great.)
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To: absolootezer0

Yep, I agree. Unfortunately, with the little guys out of the way, they can tell the big ones "their way or the highway". Liability insurance cost has factored into more than one decision to shut down, too. Hopefully anti tort legislation will put an end to that angle.


38 posted on 03/24/2006 7:35:06 AM PST by Smokin' Joe (How often God must weep at humans' folly.)
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To: politicket
Did you also discover that a national gun registry is alive and well? I finally understood that line in the movie "Red Dawn" where the Colonel is instructing his troops to go into the sporting goods store to retrieve all the form ATF 4473's. Holy distributed databases, Batman, we do have a national gun registry! The 20 year holding period can mean nothing else. Yet there is no hue and cry over this. Remarkable.
39 posted on 03/24/2006 7:46:11 AM PST by NonValueAdded ("If I were a Cuban, I'd certainly be on a raft," Isane Aparicio Busto)
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To: jim_trent

Even more support for my #39 premise.


40 posted on 03/24/2006 7:52:43 AM PST by NonValueAdded ("If I were a Cuban, I'd certainly be on a raft," Isane Aparicio Busto)
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To: backhoe
"More taxes, regulation, hassles=less business. Who'd a thunk it?"

You can get a Chinese AK-47 via Mexico if you want one. I have a different idea. If everybody that wanted a weapon now has that weapon, the market is saturated. I own a nice rifle and don't have the time to enjoy it in the desert, for example. It just sits in a bag because I'm too busy to take time off of my ~ 2 MONTHS VACATION time to blow off some rounds downrange. That may be the reason; people don't take time off for pleasure since there is a lot of work waiting to be done and creative BSing to be had.

41 posted on 03/24/2006 8:19:05 AM PST by BobS
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To: XeniaSt

All because he didn't like someone's religion.


42 posted on 03/24/2006 8:47:54 AM PST by oyez (Appeasement is insanity)
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To: politicket
I picked up a couple of .22's (from two different stores) a couple of weeks ago and COULD NOT BELIEVE the paperwork required.

It's not just gun sales.

I have an insurance business. When I started 20 years ago a full application, including health questions was a total of 4 pages. Now that same type policy requires 100 (THAT'S ONE HUNDRED!) pages.

Also, my role in the investment side has changed. I now am put in the position that I need to protect my clients accounts from insurance companies law and compliance departments.

43 posted on 03/24/2006 9:12:43 AM PST by Balding_Eagle (REAL men vote Republican)
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To: Joe Brower

I thought "kitchen table" dealers have been against the rules for years.
One of the requirements of an FFL is that you have to have a storefront.
I always thought that sucked because internet sales seems like it would be a nice way to go.

I also dislike the fact that you have to allow the feds into your home for inspection purposes if you have a C&R licence


44 posted on 03/24/2006 9:38:27 AM PST by mylife (The roar of the masses could be farts)
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To: CodeToad
In a free country there would be no license. Everyone should enjoy the right to keep and bear arms. If a criminal cannot be trusted with one after they served their time then maybe they shouldn't be out of jail. I mean, we release people we do not trust into our population.

"I say that the Second Amendment doesn't allow for exceptions or else it would have read that the right "to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed, unless Congress chooses otherwise." And because there are no exceptions, I disagree with my fellow panelists who say the existing gun laws should be enforced. Those laws are unconstitutional [and] wrong because they put you at a disadvantage to armed criminals, to whom the laws are no inconvenience."...Harry Browne
.
45 posted on 03/24/2006 9:54:45 AM PST by mugs99 (Don't take life too seriously, you won't get out alive.)
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To: mylife
I thought "kitchen table" dealers have been against the rules for years. One of the requirements of an FFL is that you have to have a storefront.

They are in some states, but not in others, as I understand it.

46 posted on 03/24/2006 9:58:09 AM PST by mvpel (Michael Pelletier)
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To: ZULU
Guns are a legal commodity - they are not drugs or porn

One freedom is the same as another. If you can oulaw one, you can outlaw all.
.
47 posted on 03/24/2006 10:00:35 AM PST by mugs99 (Don't take life too seriously, you won't get out alive.)
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To: ZULU
ZULU said: "Where is the Bush Administration?"

The most important change that would work in favor of gun rights is in the composition of the US Supreme Court. I am encouraged by Roberts' and Alito's ability to read and understand the words of the Constitution.

Now if only Ginsburg and several others would find their way to the door, we might find ourselves with a court that would restore our right to keep and bear arms. Most of the mischief that has been committed relies on the silence of prior Supreme Courts.

48 posted on 03/24/2006 10:49:56 AM PST by William Tell (RKBA for California (rkba.members.sonic.net) - Volunteer by contacting Dave at rkba@sonic.net)
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To: neverdem
An Armed Citizen, Is A Safe Citizen!

The Second Amendment...
America's Only Homeland Security!

Be Ever Vigilant!

49 posted on 03/24/2006 12:12:58 PM PST by blackie (Be Well~Be Armed~Be Safe~Molon Labe!)
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To: William Tell

Granted, Alito and Roberts are a big improvement.

But I'm defintely unhappy with Gonzales. His predecessor was much to be preferred.


50 posted on 03/24/2006 12:58:12 PM PST by ZULU (Non nobis, non nobis, Domine, sed nomini tuo da gloriam. God, guts, and guns made America great.)
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