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NYC Mayor's Criticism of Gun Legislation Challenged
CNSNews.com ^ | March 31, 2006 | Jeff Johnson

Posted on 03/31/2006 10:46:31 AM PST by neverdem

Senior Staff Writer

(CNSNews.com) - New York City's mayor is blasting a congressional proposal under which several temporary federal gun regulations would become permanent law. Michael Bloomberg claimed the legislation "would explicitly impinge on our ability to fight illegal gun trafficking, and it would result in the shooting deaths of innocent people." But an attorney who specializes in federal firearms laws calls Bloomberg's claims "patently false."

The House Judiciary Subcommittee on Crime Terrorism and Homeland Security met Tuesday to discuss the "Firearms Correction and Improvement Act" (H.R. 5005) introduced last week by Rep. Lamar Smith (R-Texas). Smith wrote the bill to permanently include in federal firearms laws a number of provisions that have been reenacted annually as "riders" to appropriations bills.

The portion of Smith's bill with which Bloomberg took issue is Section 9, entitled "Trace Disclosure." It makes permanent a ban on using so-called "crime gun trace data" collected by the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) for any purpose other than criminal prosecutions and ATF administrative proceedings.

Bloomberg called that trace data "the single most powerful way to demonstrate unmistakable patterns of illegal conduct."

But attorney and firearms law expert Richard Gardiner challenged that description.

"That assumes that trace data is meaningful in indicating that [firearms] dealers are involved in selling guns that are used in crimes," Gardiner told Cybercast News Service. "And the problem with that is that the trace data does not include all guns used in crimes, that is to say, not all trace guns are 'crime guns' and not all 'crime guns' are traced."

In fact, a law enforcement agency request for ATF to trace the ownership of a firearm - from manufacturer to distributor to retailer to buyer - does not necessarily indicate that the firearm was used in the commission of a crime or even that it was illegally possessed.

Gardiner cited multiple examples of firearms that were not true "crime guns" being traced at the request of law enforcement agencies, including weapons found in the homes of deceased people who lived alone and stolen firearms recovered by police. In both examples, traces are conducted not because the firearms are "crime guns" but because law enforcement agencies want to return them to their rightful owners.

Still, Bloomberg argued that the data from those traces can help identify willful misconduct on the part of gun dealers.

"It's pretty simple," Bloomberg said, "gun dealers with inordinately large numbers of traces to crime guns are gun dealers that make it their practice to sell to straw purchasers." (A "straw purchase" is when a person legally entitled to own a firearm purchases it on behalf of another person who is prohibited from possessing any gun either because of a felony conviction or other disqualifying factor. Such sales are a criminal violation of federal law.)

Gardiner said Bloomberg's conclusion is not supported by facts.

"Even if there were straw sales, straw man sales being made from dealers, that doesn't prove that the dealer was doing anything wrong," Gardiner argued. "There's no evidence from tracing, because of the problems with tracing, that dealers are selling guns unlawfully. The trace couldn't indicate that and, in fact, doesn't indicate that."

Gardiner cited the case of a gun dealer he is currently representing who was charged with conspiring to facilitate three straw purchases. All three of the buyers admitted under cross examination that the gun dealer knew nothing about their illegal actions and that they went to great lengths to conceal the straw purchases from the gun store's staff.

"So, the fact that there are straw sales going on from a dealer doesn't mean the dealer is doing anything wrong," Gardiner suggested. "Mayor Bloomberg's theory is that, if straw sales are being made at that dealer's premises, [the dealer is] committing a crime when, in fact, he's the victim."

Bloomberg also chastised supporters of the bill, claiming that it would, "actually treat police officers like criminals."

"Under the terms of H.R. 5005, a detective who shares ATF trace information with another state government for use in a license revocation hearing against a rogue dealer would be committing a federal felony - a crime punishable by up to five years in prison," Bloomberg complained. "In other words, if an NYPD Detective talks to a New Jersey State Trooper about a problem gun dealer problem, that Detective could go to jail."

Gardiner called Bloomberg's charge "an absolute fabrication."

"There's nothing in this bill that has anything to do with criminal penalties," Gardiner said. "All it does is prohibit the disclosure of trace data information by ATF to anyone other than law enforcement.

"Even if ATF violated it, it's not a criminal violation. It probably should be, but it's not," Gardiner continued. "It just says ATF can't do it, but it doesn't provide any penalty if they do."

Gardiner believes one sentence in Bloomberg's testimony reveals the mayor's real objection to the bill.

"By forbidding the use of trace data in civil and administrative proceedings," Bloomberg complained, "H.R. 5005 would make it far more difficult to bring civil suits against rogue gun dealers."

Those lawsuits, Gardiner contends, are designed to put allegedly "rogue" gun dealers out of business even after they have been cleared of any wrongdoing by the ATF and the criminal courts.

"I think that's the real issue because that's what they wanted [trace data] for and that's exactly what the bill prohibits," Gardiner said. "It's about bringing suits against gun dealers and trying to shut them down that way."

Multiple contacts with Mayor Bloomberg's office via telephone and email seeking comment on Gardiner's allegations yielded no response.

H.R. 5005 specifically states that ATF trace data "shall not be admissible as evidence, and testimony or other evidence relying on the information shall not be admissible, in any civil action in a State or Federal court, or in any administrative proceeding other than a proceeding commenced by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives."

Bloomberg's efforts to sue gun manufacturers for the actions of criminals who misuse their products were thwarted recently when the "Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act" became law. Gardiner hopes H.R. 5005 will stop cities like New York from misusing ATF trace data in lawsuits designed to cripple the legal firearms industry.


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Editorial; Government; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections; US: District of Columbia; US: New York
KEYWORDS: 2a; 2ndamendment; bang; banglist; bloomberg; bloomy; firearms; pistols; revolvers; rifles; rkba; secondamendment; shotguns

1 posted on 03/31/2006 10:46:34 AM PST by neverdem
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To: neverdem

The left just keeps up its attempt to eradicate the Second Amendment to appease its fear of why the Second Amendment was put into the Bill of Rights to begin with. They worry alot when they look in the mirror...


2 posted on 03/31/2006 10:48:48 AM PST by EagleUSA
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To: EagleUSA

Note what party Bloomberg belongs to.


3 posted on 03/31/2006 10:50:32 AM PST by bill1952 ("All that we do is done with an eye towards something else.")
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To: neverdem
Bloomberg also chastised supporters of the bill, claiming that it would, "actually treat police officers like criminals."

Last I heard NYC already does a pretty good job of this by not letting law enforcement from outside of NYC carry while in-town on official business .

Bloomie is a panty waste.

4 posted on 03/31/2006 10:52:26 AM PST by VeniVidiVici (Protect American jobs. Don't hire illegals.)
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To: neverdem
What a maroon!

Back alley gun deals in NY are in the millions of dollars every year. The sad part is that a large chunk of purchases are being made by otherwise law abiding citizens.
5 posted on 03/31/2006 10:52:26 AM PST by HEY4QDEMS (Learn from the past, don't live in it.)
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To: cyborg; Clemenza; Cacique; NYCVirago; The Mayor; Darksheare; hellinahandcart; Chode; ...
Time to take on Albany, New York

NYC: Smoking: Bloomberg lied, bars died

FReepmail me if you want on or off my New York ping list.

6 posted on 03/31/2006 10:53:20 AM PST by neverdem (May you be in heaven a half hour before the devil knows that you're dead.)
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To: AAABEST; wku man; SLB; Travis McGee; Squantos; Shooter 2.5; The Old Hoosier; xrp; freedomlover; ...
Bloomberg sucks, and his latest crusade could do some damage. His current anti-gun efforts bear watching.

Click the Gadsden flag for pro-gun resources!

7 posted on 03/31/2006 10:53:49 AM PST by Joe Brower (The Constitution defines Conservatism. *NRA*)
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To: neverdem

Why does this surprise ANYONE?! New York adn NYC was a Great Britain Tory stronghold during the Revolution. NY was NEVER really onboard with the American Revolution.


8 posted on 03/31/2006 11:11:39 AM PST by zzen01
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To: neverdem

F*ck Bloomberg. Recall his RINO arse...


9 posted on 03/31/2006 11:16:04 AM PST by Dead Corpse (I believe that all government is evil, and that trying to improve it is largely a waste of time.)
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To: neverdem
Bloomie's real objection has nothing to do with the restrictions endangering police officers' lives and everything to do with their halting New York City's bid to shake down the gun industry in court for cash. That's what really has his goat - follow the money.

(Denny Crane: "I Don't Want To Socialize With A Pinko Liberal Democrat Commie. Say What You Like About Republicans. We Stick To Our Convictions. Even When We Know We're Dead Wrong.")

10 posted on 03/31/2006 11:21:07 AM PST by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives On In My Heart Forever)
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To: neverdem

Bloomburg is a left-wing pansey Democrat.

He only ran as a Republican as he couldn't run on the Democrat Ticket for Mayor of New York.

I'd be happier if this weiney New York liberal went back where he belongs - the Democrat Party.


11 posted on 03/31/2006 11:23:04 AM PST by ZULU (Non nobis, non nobis, Domine, sed nomini tuo da gloriam. God, guts, and guns made America great.)
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To: bill1952
Note what party Bloomberg belongs to.

He was a RAT before he became a RINO just so he could run for mayor of NYC.

12 posted on 03/31/2006 11:23:32 AM PST by rllngrk33 (The RATs and Media are the enemy.)
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To: rllngrk33

Any great Republican leaders emerge from NY?

Any?


13 posted on 03/31/2006 11:32:43 AM PST by bill1952 ("All that we do is done with an eye towards something else.")
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To: ZULU
Bloomy proposed a change to the City Charter in which political parties had no standing and the choice would just be amongst individual candidates. Non-political elections flopped BIG TIME.
14 posted on 03/31/2006 11:39:18 AM PST by neverdem (May you be in heaven a half hour before the devil knows that you're dead.)
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To: ZULU; rllngrk33; bill1952
Hi All-

Even conservative voters got caught up in the euphoria that a "businessman" would be running New York and didn't bother to look at everything else important to him. There is essentially nothing about Bloomberg that anyone would call "conservative" in nature. The two officeholders before him (Mayor Giuliani & Mayor Dinkins) were also big gungrabbers.

Many people in that city are a lost cause...they've become such nannystaters that they can't imagine, even for a moment, doing something themselves rather than relying on someone from the government. Shaking in their boots at home because they're too afraid to walk to the video store or whatever. It's really pathetic.

~ Blue Jays ~

15 posted on 03/31/2006 11:41:17 AM PST by Blue Jays (Rock Hard, Ride Free)
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To: bill1952

Teddy Roosevelt


16 posted on 03/31/2006 11:41:59 AM PST by neverdem (May you be in heaven a half hour before the devil knows that you're dead.)
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To: neverdem

Teddy Roosevelt was great.

He and Ronald Reagan were the only truly great presidents of the 20th century.


17 posted on 03/31/2006 11:49:08 AM PST by ZULU (Non nobis, non nobis, Domine, sed nomini tuo da gloriam. God, guts, and guns made America great.)
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To: neverdem
In fact, a law enforcement agency request for ATF to trace the ownership of a firearm - from manufacturer to distributor to retailer to buyer - does not necessarily indicate that the firearm was used in the commission of a crime or even that it was illegally possessed.

That statement is absolutely true. I know a police officer that had a trace run on his first duty weapon, a Beretta 92F, just for nostalgia's sake. Just because a trace is run does not mean the gun was connected with any crime.
18 posted on 03/31/2006 11:50:03 AM PST by noobiangod
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To: Joe Brower
An Armed Citizen, Is A Safe Citizen!

The Second Amendment...
America's Only Homeland Security!

Be Ever Vigilant!


19 posted on 03/31/2006 12:07:45 PM PST by blackie (Be Well~Be Armed~Be Safe~Molon Labe!)
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To: noobiangod
NYC is a cess pool,and many of its insane and illegal laws spread to the rest of the state.He doesn't need to worry,his armed bodyguards will take care of him.Wonder what they cost a year?NY would give a scummer like Sean Penn a CCF,but a good citizen,forget it.[Calif.did].
20 posted on 03/31/2006 12:07:56 PM PST by xarmydog
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To: neverdem

We don't call him Mayor Blooming-idiot for nothing!!!!


21 posted on 03/31/2006 12:15:58 PM PST by OldFriend (AMERICA WOULD NOT BE THE LAND OF THE FREE IF IT WERE NOT ALSO THE HOME OF THE BRAVE)
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To: Blue Jays

Sorry, it was Blooming-idiot or Green. The choice was a no brainer.


22 posted on 03/31/2006 12:17:02 PM PST by OldFriend (AMERICA WOULD NOT BE THE LAND OF THE FREE IF IT WERE NOT ALSO THE HOME OF THE BRAVE)
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To: bill1952

Bueller...Bueller...


23 posted on 03/31/2006 12:17:45 PM PST by Andonius_99 (They [liberals] aren't humans, but rather a species of hairless retarded ape.)
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To: xarmydog
NY would give a scummer like Sean Penn a CCF,but a good citizen,forget it.[Calif.did].

Celebrities like William F. Buckley and actors could no longer renew concealed carry licenses after a guy with probable AIDS related dementia killed a Councilman in City Hall by Bloomboob's decree.

24 posted on 03/31/2006 12:25:09 PM PST by neverdem (May you be in heaven a half hour before the devil knows that you're dead.)
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To: neverdem

Normally I would reply,thats a joke right?But I know better.I think he is worried some sane man would shoot him for being so stupid.


25 posted on 03/31/2006 12:29:13 PM PST by xarmydog
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To: OldFriend
Hi OldFriend-

Fernando Ferrer, Mark Green, Al Sharpton, aaaahhhh!

Decent people may work in NYC for the foreseeable future, but they will likely continue to move to points north, south, and west for permanent residency. It is a tough spot to be a genuine and outspoken conservative who happens to live in that den of vipers.

~ Blue Jays ~

26 posted on 03/31/2006 12:38:03 PM PST by Blue Jays (Rock Hard, Ride Free)
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To: neverdem
Okay, you did make my usual 100 year cutoff by three years. 8^)

Christ, where are any politicians like him now?

"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better.
The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."

27 posted on 03/31/2006 1:06:03 PM PST by bill1952 ("All that we do is done with an eye towards something else.")
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To: bill1952

Thanks for the quote!


28 posted on 03/31/2006 1:14:01 PM PST by neverdem (May you be in heaven a half hour before the devil knows that you're dead.)
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To: Blue Jays
The conservative candidate who ran against Rudy Guiliani nearly got us another four years of David Dinkins.

Sean's constant praising of the conservative party in NY is COUNTER-PRODUCTIVE IN THE EXTREME

The conservative candidate got about 1-2% and Rudy barely won that first election.

29 posted on 03/31/2006 1:22:01 PM PST by OldFriend (AMERICA WOULD NOT BE THE LAND OF THE FREE IF IT WERE NOT ALSO THE HOME OF THE BRAVE)
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To: neverdem; All

Former Democrat Bloomber is just waiting for a pro-gun grabber administration in order to pursue the gun makers. This "objection" is nothing more than an attempt to make more civil litigation where none should exist.

We should view these laws becoming permanent as TORT REFORM.


30 posted on 03/31/2006 1:25:16 PM PST by longtermmemmory (VOTE!)
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To: OldFriend
Hi OldFriend-

For the life of me I can't recall the names of any of the Republicans who ran against Mayor Giuliani in the primary years ago. Was the candidate you're talking about a genuine conservative?

~ Blue Jays ~

31 posted on 03/31/2006 3:12:41 PM PST by Blue Jays (Rock Hard, Ride Free)
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To: Blue Jays; OldFriend

Henry Hewes (1989, great guy) and George Marlin (1993, no comment) both ran against Giuliani. Ronald Lauder, son of Estee, ran against Rudy in the 1989 primary.


32 posted on 03/31/2006 4:45:21 PM PST by Clemenza (I Just Wasn't Made for These Times)
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To: Blue Jays

You have to be careful, many of the suburbs of NYC are just as liberal as the city. The Republican voting areas of the NYC suburbs are western New Jersey (Morris, Somerset, and Hunterdon County), Upstate Exurbia (Orange County) and parts of Fairfield County in Connecticut (especially Darien, New Canaan and Fairfield. Greenwich is not as heavily Republican, but still went for Bush with about 51% and then 54% of the vote).


33 posted on 03/31/2006 4:47:48 PM PST by Clemenza (I Just Wasn't Made for These Times)
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To: Clemenza
Marlin.....gggggggrrrrrrrrrr

Kemp and Bennet came riding into town campaigning for Marlin.

A lesson to freepers who demanded purity and slick willie brought us death and destruction on 9/11.

34 posted on 03/31/2006 5:22:31 PM PST by OldFriend (AMERICA WOULD NOT BE THE LAND OF THE FREE IF IT WERE NOT ALSO THE HOME OF THE BRAVE)
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To: bill1952
'To The Barricades!'

You were the second to send me that quote from TR today. It's about 2/3 - 3/4 down through comment# 20.

35 posted on 03/31/2006 7:29:10 PM PST by neverdem (May you be in heaven a half hour before the devil knows that you're dead.)
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To: neverdem
"Under the terms of H.R. 5005, a detective who shares ATF trace information with another state government for use in a license revocation hearing against a rogue dealer would be committing a federal felony - a crime punishable by up to five years in prison," Bloomberg complained. "In other words, if an NYPD Detective talks to a New Jersey State Trooper about a problem gun dealer problem, that Detective could go to jail."

It's too bad the same thing doesn't happened to BATFE and FBI agents who serve warrants in blatantly unreasonable, and thus Unconstitutional, ways. Or those that apply criminal penalties to paperwork errors, or those that lie about the accuracy of the National Firearms Registry.

If a cop breaks the law, why should he not be punished? Besides it's not clear that these two police exchanging such trace information would not be perfectly OK under the law, if it were for a "criminal prosecution". It just couldn't be used by overzealous local officials to shut down gun dealers not involved in criminal activity, nor to support civil suits with the same end in mind.

36 posted on 03/31/2006 7:46:23 PM PST by El Gato
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To: bill1952
Note what party Bloomberg belongs to.

That would be the same one as Mr. McCain, the RINO party? According to his Wikipedia entry, "Bloomberg, a lifelong member of the Democratic Party, decided to run for mayor as a member of the Republican Party, reportedly to avoid the crowded field in the Democratic primary.".

So in reality, he's a Limousine Liberal, masquerading as a RINO.

37 posted on 03/31/2006 7:52:05 PM PST by El Gato
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To: bill1952
Any great Republican leaders emerge from NY?

Teddy Roosevelt.

"The son of a wealthy, socially prominent merchant, Roosevelt was born in New York City on Oct. 27, 1858. He was educated by private tutors and studied at Harvard University, graduating in 1880 as a member of Phi Beta Kappa and the most prestigious social clubs"

Different branch of the family than the Socialist Franklin, although they were related, and Franklin's wife Eleanor was Theodore's niece, although raised from age of 8 by her maternal grandmother. Her father Elliot Roosevelt died when she was 10. However, Uncle Teddy did give her away when she married Franklin.

38 posted on 03/31/2006 8:05:11 PM PST by El Gato
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To: neverdem
Gardiner continued. "It just says ATF can't do it, but it doesn't provide any penalty if they do."

Which of course means that they will violate this provision on a routine basis. Gone are the days that "the law" obeyed the law, just because it is the law. Of course with the BATFE, those days *never* were.

39 posted on 03/31/2006 8:06:54 PM PST by El Gato
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To: HEY4QDEMS
Back alley gun deals in NY are in the millions of dollars every year. The sad part is that a large chunk of purchases are being made by otherwise law abiding citizens.
An obvious side-effect of the draconian licensing laws in New York State, where you need a "carry permit" (usually restricted so it's not a true CCW) to even touch a handgun.

If not intending to carry concealed, I'd expect most people would go the safest route and buy a pump shotgun from a private seller in upstate New York, and avoid all the paperwork.

40 posted on 04/01/2006 1:06:19 AM PST by Nonesuch (BATFE: They wanted to be a cool three-letter org like DEA, now they've got an extra 'E' instead!)
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To: Nonesuch

Travis Bickle: You got a .44 magnum?
Andy: It's an expensive weapon.
Travis Bickle: That's all right. I got money.
Andy: It's a real monster. It'll stop a car at a hundred yards. Put a round right through the engine block


41 posted on 04/01/2006 1:19:44 AM PST by durasell (!)
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