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'Gospel of Judas' Called An Authentic Fabrication
The New York Sun ^ | April 7, 2006 | BRUCE CHILTON

Posted on 04/07/2006 6:38:55 AM PDT by presidio9

The National Geographic Society released the manuscript of what is called "The Gospel of Judas" yesterday. By National Geographic's own account, a team first assembled by the Maecenas Foundation has been working on the text since 2001. As a result of press releases tied to publication of the text, widespread coverage has repeated the claim that this is an authentic and unique representation of the historical relationship between Jesus and Judas, and that Jesus encouraged Judas to betray him.

Despite the careful work by scholars that has gone into a document of obvious interest, I have to express disappointment when I see National Geographic stoop so low into hyperbole as to distort the significance of this discovery.

In its release, National Geographic repeatedly states that it has "authenticated" the document. Several press outlets have simply repeated those claims. But "authentic" turns out to be a slippery term as used by the National Geographic Society. No scholar associated with the find argues this is a first century document, or that it derives from Judas. The release says the document was "copied down in Coptic probably around A.D. 300," although later that is changed to "let's say around the year 400." This amounts to saying that "The Gospel of Judas" is an authentic fabrication produced by a group of Gnostics in Egypt. Gnostics believed that their direct knowledge of heaven permitted them to understand what no one else knew, or could know by historical knowledge. For ancient Gnostics to believe in their own powers of divination is charming; for their flights of imagination to be passed off as historical knowledge in our time is dishonest or self-deceived.

During the second century, a theologian of the Catholic Church named Irenaeus referred to a writing named "The Gospel of Judas." Was that

(Excerpt) Read more at nysun.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: authenticfabrication; crapola; fabrication; fakebutaccurate; fakewhenitwaswritten; gnostic; gospelofjudas; ignorantmedia; irreligiousmedia; jeeznotthisagain; judas; justsomegnosticcrap; msmdontknowhistory; msmdontknowreligion; muchadoaboutnothing; wtfk
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To: Jim Noble

You said: Is this the Gospel where Jesus warns against global warming, and denounces Bush?


Did he also invent the Internet....Shucks that was Al Gore.


101 posted on 04/07/2006 9:09:36 AM PDT by Ptaz (Take Personal Responsibility--it's not fun, but it's the right thing to do.)
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To: sportutegrl

Yes, very Clintonian.


102 posted on 04/07/2006 9:11:21 AM PDT by BenLurkin (O beautiful for patriot dream - that sees beyond the years)
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To: WKB
Finally a Gospel the evos will believe.!!!!

Doubtful except that the evos might be Christian. Most will not care one way or another about another philosophical religious food fight.

103 posted on 04/07/2006 9:13:06 AM PDT by jec41 (Screaming Eagle)
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To: jec41
Doubtful except that the evos might be Christian.



Christian \evo
I still find that to be the epitome of an oxymoron
104 posted on 04/07/2006 9:16:34 AM PDT by WKB (Science Fiction= Any science that omits God.)
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To: presidio9

The statement was that all the works except two were unequivocally first century. In fact, four are almost certainly second century, and parts of the rest are debated. More than four is a whole lot different than two.


105 posted on 04/07/2006 9:29:02 AM PDT by Right Wing Professor
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To: WKB
Christian \evo I still find that to be the epitome of an oxymoron

Tell it to the Catholic church. They would applicate your evaluation that they are oxymoron's.

106 posted on 04/07/2006 9:31:00 AM PDT by jec41 (Screaming Eagle)
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To: jec41

IMHO The Catholic Church is an oxymoron in more ways
than one.


107 posted on 04/07/2006 9:33:33 AM PDT by WKB (Science Fiction= Any science that omits God.)
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To: presidio9

Dan Rather stands by the authenticity of the non-authentic documents.


108 posted on 04/07/2006 9:35:14 AM PDT by jw777
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To: Right Wing Professor
More than four is a whole lot different than two.

Not really, when you are talking about four letters. One letter is the equivalent of one chapeter of a Gospel. A Gross exaggeration might have been to say that none of the NT was written after AD 100. Virtually all of it was written before.

109 posted on 04/07/2006 9:36:41 AM PDT by presidio9 ("Bird Flu" is the new Y2K virus -only without the inconvenient deadline.)
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To: WKB; jec41

Do either of you actually understand the meaning of the term "oxymoron?"


110 posted on 04/07/2006 9:37:52 AM PDT by presidio9 ("Bird Flu" is the new Y2K virus -only without the inconvenient deadline.)
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To: BIGLOOK
Hmmmm.....seems to me Judas didn't have a lot of time time pen his gospel after betraying Jesus.

ROTFLOL. That's the best one yet. Too bad those who are promoting the whole idea didn't take that into account first. Makes them look like the fools that they are.

111 posted on 04/07/2006 9:42:59 AM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Coleus; NYer; Salvation

ping


112 posted on 04/07/2006 9:51:43 AM PDT by presidio9 ("Bird Flu" is the new Y2K virus -only without the inconvenient deadline.)
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To: presidio9
I used to love NG. But because of junk like this I let my subscription lapse a long time ago.
113 posted on 04/07/2006 9:56:02 AM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: VeritatisSplendor; FormerLib

It is pretty similar. Mormons have gnostic elements also, and many of the so called "New Agers" are really just watered down gnosticism.


114 posted on 04/07/2006 9:59:21 AM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: sinkspur
One of the participants had to point out to her that "Katie, the DaVinci Codes are a work of fiction."

Katie does not strike me as being the brightest bulb in the chandelier.

115 posted on 04/07/2006 10:01:19 AM PDT by BeHoldAPaleHorse ( ~()):~)>)
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To: Right Wing Professor
There are some texts the quote various parts of the Gospels that can be dated to right around the turn of the 1st century. But as for surviving manuscripts, not many.

For that matter we don't have very many surviving manuscripts from that time period at all. That is why the Qumran scrolls causes such a sensation.
116 posted on 04/07/2006 10:11:33 AM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: presidio9; jec41
ox·y·mo·ron (ŏk'sē-môr'ŏn', -mōr'-) pronunciation n., pl. -mo·ra (-môr'ə, -mōr'ə) or -rons. A rhetorical figure in which incongruous or contradictory terms are combined, as in a deafening silence and a mournful optimist.
117 posted on 04/07/2006 10:16:06 AM PDT by WKB (Science Fiction= Any science that omits God.)
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To: BenLurkin

EXACTLY what I was thinking.


118 posted on 04/07/2006 10:18:34 AM PDT by lawgirl (She comes on like thunder and she's more right than rain)
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To: sinkspur
One of the participants had to point out to her that "Katie, the DaVinci Codes are a work of fiction."

Noooo way!

That is way to funny.

And she is now CBS' anchor lady of serious news .... LOL!!!!!

119 posted on 04/07/2006 10:22:32 AM PDT by hawkaw
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To: Antoninus; Buckhead
"...it was created using a stylus that hadn't been invented until AD 378.

Heh, heh, heh.....another "Great Moment in Buckhead History."

?8^)
120 posted on 04/07/2006 10:23:09 AM PDT by hummingbird (Bloggers killed the Media Stars.)
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To: InvisibleChurch
It's probably the Times font that gave it away.

You mean the Times New Roman font don't you? LOL

121 posted on 04/07/2006 10:41:05 AM PDT by mc5cents
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To: presidio9

From what I hear, the Gospel of Judas has much the same story as Jesus Christ Superstar.

Gnosticism means belief in "secret knowledge." It is belief in New Age / Spiritualism / Divination. The adherents succumb to the temptation that they themselves are Christs (not merely "little Christs," or "Christians), and that they can "channel" the truth.

It would be perfectly consistent for one of them to channel a Gospel, and claim that Judas was - through spiritual connection - the true author.

Hence, the good bishop of the early church who denounced this particular gnostic cult and their Gospel, circa 180 AD, was probably reacting to a roughly contemporaneous event; i.e., a 2nd century event.

As to what this says about the canon, this document is further evidence that the books of the New Testament predate 180 AD, and therefore probably, as claimed, late 1st century or, at the very latest, early 2nd century in origin.

Now, just as this manuscript was in Coptic, circa 3 or 400 AD, but originally written in Greek, circa 200 AD, so too are our earliest versions of the canon, which date from about 300 AD, copies and perhaps even translations into the Greek of earlier documents. I would venture to say that if the original documents, lost to us, were not written, as claimed, by the disciples of Jesus (including Paul, who was called by Jesus in a vision), they were written by others who directly heard from these guys.

My own belief is that they were actually written by the claimed authors, although perhaps edited by others in the early 2nd century. But, I'm no real expert in these matters, so why should that matter to anybody else.


122 posted on 04/07/2006 10:53:30 AM PDT by Redmen4ever
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To: BeHoldAPaleHorse

At least in the past she had co-hosts (other bulbs in the chandelier), now she's all alone and the world will truly see a dim bulb.


123 posted on 04/07/2006 11:11:12 AM PDT by JosephW (Mohammad Lied, People die!)
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To: JosephW

Katie Couric...LOL. What a better spokesmen for the left could they have. Too bad those daughters of hers have to grow up with that brain donor as their only parent. Her hubby was a good guy before his untimely demise. What will she do when she doesn’t have Matt's receding hairline to make fun of and talking about how Jenna Jameson has become mainstream.


124 posted on 04/07/2006 11:24:57 AM PDT by lwg8tr
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To: WKB
IMHO The Catholic Church is an oxymoron in more ways than one.

Only parts of Christian faith is correct? Which parts?

125 posted on 04/07/2006 11:34:34 AM PDT by jec41 (Screaming Eagle)
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To: Ptaz

Barry's, "The Third Secret" would have been better had it only to do with a married clergy. While the first half of the book is great, the second half can't even kindly be called tripe. It took many beliefs that predate Christianity and called them lies (pious and holy beliefs held by Jews and given down by God). Spoke of how Mary actually favoured allowing abortion and pre-marital sex.

Gnostics were sincere (for the most part) in their beliefs (even though they were wrong) and wrote Gospels to "validate" them (commonly in the 2 thru 4 centuries).

The Church (Catholics, Coptics & Orthodox still all being united) in the 3rd and 4th century got together at the Council of Hippo and the Synod of Carthage and clearly stated which books comprised the New Testament. In order to weed out false testimony they capped the writings to the first century. This however does not mean that many 2nd & 3rd century writings are untrue.

To counter untrue beliefs (Aryans and Gnostics, plus other wackjobs), the Church held Ecumenical Councils to dispell the untruths and cement the actual truth. It is out of these Councils that we have the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed (commonly shortened to Nicene Creed or Confession of Faith)


126 posted on 04/07/2006 11:35:06 AM PDT by JosephW (Mohammad Lied, People die!)
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To: presidio9; topcat54; Gamecock; P-Marlowe; blue-duncan; xzins; ears_to_hear; Frumanchu; ...
This amounts to saying that "The Gospel of Judas" is an authentic fabrication produced by a group of Gnostics in Egypt.

I just dug up a piece of papyrus in my backyard. It looks really old. I think it says I'm related to Queen Victoria.

Or maybe it says Queen Latifah. It's smudged.

127 posted on 04/07/2006 11:36:13 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: presidio9

Definitions of Oxymoron on the Web:

A paradox reduced to two words, usually in an adjective-noun ("eloquent silence") or adverb-adjective ("inertly strong") relationship, and is used for effect, to emphasize contrasts, incongruities, hypocrisy, or simply the complex nature of reality. Examples: wise fool, ignorantly learned, laughing sadness, pious hate. Some others:


128 posted on 04/07/2006 11:37:08 AM PDT by jec41 (Screaming Eagle)
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To: jec41

You might want to actually read that definition while you're at it. Feel free to attack Catholicism if that gets you off, but since it is defintely a "church" (whether you agree with what that church has to say or not) you look pretty foolish labling the term oxymoronic.


129 posted on 04/07/2006 11:42:45 AM PDT by presidio9 ("Bird Flu" is the new Y2K virus -only without the inconvenient deadline.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; presidio9; topcat54; Gamecock; P-Marlowe; xzins; ears_to_hear; Frumanchu

"This amounts to saying that "The Gospel of Judas" is an authentic fabrication produced by a group of Gnostics in Egypt."

The secret number for decoding this authentic Gnostic fabrication is located somewhere in P-M's tagline. He has promised to let all of you in on it for the, today only, low, low price of.... Wait, he will give it to you right after he gives me the power ball numbers for Saturday.


130 posted on 04/07/2006 11:49:58 AM PDT by blue-duncan
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To: Dog Gone

"There were many, many early Christian writings in existence. Many of them were contradictory.

The ones we find in the New Testament didn't magically appear one day at the end of a copy of the Old Testament.

It wasn't until much later that a committee met and decided which of the early writings would get that special honor.

I agree, this is much ado about nothing."

Thanks for that clarification. I'm not a seminarian, and am only generally familiar with this subject. It is interesting, but not earth shattering..


131 posted on 04/07/2006 12:08:02 PM PDT by Bean Counter (Hope Springs Eternal...)
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To: presidio9
You might want to actually read that definition while you're at it. Feel free to attack Catholicism if that gets you off, but since it is defintely a "church" (whether you agree with what that church has to say or not) you look pretty foolish labling the term oxymoronic.

You might want to review all my postings on this thread. I have not attack the Catholic Church. If you find one instance where I have I will apologize. You might want to determine the origination of the accusation of oxymoron in this thread.

132 posted on 04/07/2006 12:10:07 PM PDT by jec41 (Screaming Eagle)
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To: Dog Gone

Oh, ok. I misunderstood what you were saying. You are absolutely right. The earliest copy is actually a fragment of the Gospel of John that dates to the 2nd or 3rd century and no actual original exists. But, that is also true of all ancient literature.


133 posted on 04/07/2006 12:19:00 PM PDT by bethelgrad (for God, country, the Marine Corps, and now the Navy Chaplain Corps OOH RAH!)
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To: jec41
My bad. My issue with you was this quote:

Tell it to the Catholic church. They would applicate your evaluation that they are oxymoron's.

Nobody who understood the definition that you posted could possibly say that unless he/she was drunk.

134 posted on 04/07/2006 12:34:02 PM PDT by presidio9 ("Bird Flu" is the new Y2K virus -only without the inconvenient deadline.)
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To: bethelgrad

Well, to be fair, I could have been a whole lot more clear in my earlier post.


135 posted on 04/07/2006 12:37:28 PM PDT by Dog Gone
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To: jec41

Only parts of Christian faith is correct? Which parts?



I have been arguing with people all day
and I don't feel like getting into another
with you about the Catholics.
Maybe next time.


136 posted on 04/07/2006 12:38:27 PM PDT by WKB (Science Fiction= Any science that omits God.)
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To: WKB

Have a nice day.


137 posted on 04/07/2006 1:05:32 PM PDT by jec41 (Screaming Eagle)
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To: presidio9
Nobody who understood the definition that you posted could possibly say that unless he/she was drunk.

I don't use the term except in a reply to someone's accusation that uses the term.

138 posted on 04/07/2006 1:09:46 PM PDT by jec41 (Screaming Eagle)
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To: jec41

Actually, you seem to have invented a new term: "oxymoron's."


139 posted on 04/07/2006 1:13:17 PM PDT by presidio9 ("Bird Flu" is the new Y2K virus -only without the inconvenient deadline.)
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To: karnage
Her Afterward in the novel chronicles her journey to Christ. It's quite inspiring.

More pertinent to the debate on this thread, that amazing Afterword of Ms. Rice's documents her spiritual journey BY MEANS OF A LONG THOROUGH REVIEW OF THE LITERATURE ON THE RELIABILITY OF THE NEW TESTAMENT and her shock at realizing that the evidence supports the orthodox view.

That chapter by Ann Rice should be read aloud in every church on Easter morning.

Read it for her magnificent comments on the skeptical arguments; read it for her very perceptive list of recommended NT scholars. You know she has a good head on her shoulders solely from her respect for NT Wright.

I'm also reading "The Resurrection of the Son of God". Every generation has one scholar who destroys the skeptics of NT literature; Wright is ours.

And there is simply no reason to doubt that Paul of Tarsus wrote the pastoral epistles, other than the purely circular assumption that the church depicted therein didn't exist then.

140 posted on 04/07/2006 1:20:01 PM PDT by Taliesan (What you allow into the data set is the whole game.)
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To: Right Wing Professor; Dog Gone
"Do you claim the pastoral epistles date to the first century?"

You might be interested in the following about the origins of the "Gospels" and writings attributed to Paul. The "they" in the quote below refers to the Ascetics (who many say were also essentially the Essenes).

Eusebius wrote, in his Ecclesiastical History (History of the Christian Church), Book II, CHAPTER XVII of Philo's Account of the Ascetics of Egypt
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/2501.htm

"But it is highly probable that the works of the ancients, which he says they had, were the Gospels and the writings of the apostles, and probably some expositions of the ancient prophets, such as are contained in the Epistle to the Hebrews, and in many others of Paul's Epistles."
141 posted on 04/07/2006 6:33:41 PM PDT by familyop ("The Romans and their Empire were but a bauble in comparison to the Jews." --President John Adams)
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To: presidio9; 2ndMostConservativeBrdMember; afraidfortherepublic; Alas; al_c; american colleen; ...


142 posted on 04/07/2006 8:08:34 PM PDT by Coleus (What were Ted Kennedy, his son & nephew doing on Good Friday, 1991? Getting drunk and raping women)
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To: presidio9
This amounts to saying that "The Gospel of Judas" is an authentic fabrication produced by a group of Gnostics in Egypt.

This is about what my reaction was to the first mention of this "authentic" document. That it may be authentically old (though centuries later than the time of the apostles) but that there were heretics back then, even in the time of Jesus, just as there are heretics now.

So, this "gospel" was written by some early best-selling novelist like the guy who wrote The DaVinci Code.

143 posted on 04/08/2006 8:29:56 AM PDT by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
I just dug up a piece of papyrus in my backyard. It looks really old. I think it says I'm related to Queen Victoria.
Or maybe it says Queen Latifah. It's smudged.

LOL.

144 posted on 04/08/2006 8:51:24 AM PDT by ears_to_hear ("I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see. ")
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To: presidio9; Coleus

This is worse than that whole Christ-was-walking-on-ice-on-the-Sea-of-Galilee thing!!


145 posted on 04/08/2006 9:08:56 AM PDT by Irish_Thatcherite (~A vote for Bertie Ahern is a vote for Gerry Adams!~| IRA supporters on FR are trolls, end of story!)
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To: 7evens
I thought the program interesting.

How could the gospel aspect of Jesus have originated and proliferated without Judas?

And how could the United States have been founded without Christianity?

This from my Jewish perspective.

146 posted on 04/09/2006 7:34:22 PM PDT by onedoug
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To: presidio9
The release says the document was "copied down in Coptic probably around A.D. 300,"

I'm so sick of this crap.

147 posted on 04/10/2006 8:29:23 AM PDT by Aquinasfan (When you find "Sola Scriptura" in the Bible, let me know)
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To: karnage
Ms. Rice has undergone a profound conversion experience, returning to the Catholic faith of her youth.

Got link?

148 posted on 04/10/2006 8:40:21 AM PDT by Aquinasfan (When you find "Sola Scriptura" in the Bible, let me know)
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To: Aquinasfan

www.annerice.com


149 posted on 04/10/2006 9:27:19 AM PDT by karnage
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To: sinkspur
One of the participants had to point out to her that "Katie, the DaVinci Codes are a work of fiction."

She is a worthy successor to Dan Rather.

150 posted on 04/10/2006 10:09:20 AM PDT by my_pointy_head_is_sharp (Soon Israel will be just a memory.)
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