Requiem

combinedfleet.com ^ | 2006.04.07 | --

[B-Chan]

61 years ago today.

[B-Chan]

requiescant in pace

[derllak]

61 years ago today.....something blew up. I'm clueless...anybody wanna fill me in? I haven't been alive that long!

[Wombat101]

As a former sailor myself, I respect the memory of men who went to war in ships, fighting for their country, friend or foe.

As an example of why Japan lost the war, I don't think you could come up with a better example than the Yamato, though.

[1rudeboy]

We won.

[Wombat101]

The Battleship Yamato (the largest in the world in the 1940's and never equalled in size since) was sunk while on a Kamikaze mission against the US Navy at Okinawa.

[sageb1]

You have a great homepage, btw. :)

[MikeWUSAF]

Yes, nice page but I hate cats :)

[derllak]

Well hallelujah! Thanks guys! :)

[opbuzz]

Check the link. Pretty good timeline!

[Wombat101]

No problem. I live for this kind of stuff.

[jpl]

The Yamato and the Musashi were truly incredible ships. Almost as big as the Titanic, with enough conventional firepower to reduce a town to rubble.

[COEXERJ145]

It's sad that such a magnificent ship had to be destroyed.

Some of the most beautiful and spectacular ships in history all ended up suffering the same fate.

It is said that the mushroom cloud created by the destruction of the Yamato was visible from the Southern Japanese islands. Such a site was unsurpassed until August 6, 1945.

[Wombat101]

Yet about as useful as mammary glands on a bull in the age of Naval Aviation. For the same expenditure of resources made on the Yamato and Mushashi (and two other units of this class never completed: one converted to a hybrid BB/CV, and the other scrapped), the Japanese could have built at least 5 carriers and probably upwards of a dozen or so merchant ships (more desperately needed).

Whether Japan could have found the trained air crews and pilots to man those carriers, is, of course, an open question.

Overall, a testiment to poor management and outdated modes of thought. Interesting fact: when the Yamato was torpedoed in Dec. 1943, the damage caused the armor belt to seperate from the frame (an engineering and design flaw, not wholly caused by the explosion). Correcting the problem was estimated to eventually add 5,000 tons to the ship's displacement, and eat up ever-scarce resources the IJN could barely afford. In the end, the damage was hastily (and inadequately patched), and the whole incident was buried.

[rmlew]

The Yamato, Musashi and her unfinished sister ships (shinano, ?) were designed to destroy our battleship fleet. Japan could never beat us in numbers so they hoped that these super battleships could win with quality. Frankly, I'm not sure that they were wrong. Until the Iowa class battleships were deployed in 1943, nothing in our fleet could hope to win.

[Jim Verdolini]

Just how many aircraft were lost trying to sink the Yamato? a dozen, a score, more?

A battleship in WWII was most useful as providing a very potent package of anti air coverage for a group of ships including carriers. Some of these ships had more than 100 anti aircraft barrels.

[Wombat101]

True enough. You'll get no argument from me there.

However, the Yamato was not designed to augment AA fire within a carrier group, like the later American and British BB classes were. AA armament added to the Yamato was done after the fact, and haphazardly. The ship was designed to strike fear into the hearts of the enemy and sweep the seas of all opposition, not shoot down aircraft.

American designers foresaw the utility (and the necessity)of the BB in air defence, and equipped the Iowas and North Carolinas with a superior built-in AA defense (also later augmented), at just over slighty-half the size of the Yamatos. The Japanese did not, which is surprising as they were amongst the foremost innovators in the field of naval aviation and should have known better.

Both ships spent their careers as floating targets for aircraft and submarines and as massive, floating headquarters. When you stop to think of the amount of resources and labor that went into building these ships (and their subsequent record), you simply have to shake your head. The German Bismark was a far superior ship to either, and so were the Iowas, even if they never got to slug it out with each other.

[Wombat101]

Sorry, but in the ultimate dream match-up of a squadron of Yamatos versus a squadron of Iowas, the Iowas would have won.

The Iowas outraced the Yamatos by six knots.

The 16" rifled gun of the Iowas had comparable (just slightly shorter) range than the Yamato's 18". This is not such a disadvantage because:

- The Iowas were infinitely more stable gun platforms (stability being a result of hull-finess and depth).

- The Iowas sported radar-controlled and directed gunfire.

The Iowas had a shorter (smaller) turning radius.

The Iowas had a less-impressive armor belt in terms of thickness, but it was far superior in terms of metallurgy and strength.

The Iowas were supported by a fleet train that the Japanese could never even dream of matching.

In a straight-up fight, there would be a whole lot more dead Japanese than Americans, I believe.

[JamesP81]

The Battleship Yamato (the largest in the world in the 1940's and never equalled in size since) was sunk while on a Kamikaze mission against the US Navy at Okinawa.

IIRC, it was attacked by more aircraft than attacked the entire US fleet at Pearl Harbor. I think the Yamato was hit by something like 20 bombs and ten torpedos. One account I read, by a sailor who was on it and survived the attack, stated that the ship developed a truly incredible 80 degree list before it destroyed.

Honestly, while it was the biggest battleship ever, it wasn't the finest battleship ever. Our battleships, especially Iowa class, had superior grade steel in their armor, far more accurate guns, and superior speed. The Japanese fleet learned of these advantages the hard way at Leyte Gulf.

[JamesP81]

Whether Japan could have found the trained air crews and pilots to man those carriers, is, of course, an open question.

I think fuel was an even bigger problem, thanks to our sub skippers sinking all of Japan's merchantmen.

[Wombat101]

"Honestly, while it was the biggest battleship ever, it wasn't the finest battleship ever. Our battleships, especially Iowa class, had superior grade steel in their armor, far more accurate guns, and superior speed. The Japanese fleet learned of these advantages the hard way at Leyte Gulf."

Heck, the bulk of the damage at Leyte Gulf was done by the ships previously SUNK or damaged at Pearl Harbor (raised, repaired and upgraded), and which were 1920's designs sporting 14 and 16 inch guns!

[Wombat101]

"I think fuel was an even bigger problem, thanks to our sub skippers sinking all of Japan's merchantmen."

Certainly, But without the fuel and material lost to submarines, you can't train pilots or produce aircraft, can you? They sort of feed upon one another.

[JamesP81]

In a straight-up fight, there would be a whole lot more dead Japanese than Americans, I believe.

Absolutely correct. The Iowas armor belt was made of tool-grade steel, and was far superior in quality to what Japan was making. Bottom line is the Iowas total damage resistance was superior to that of the Yamato's, despite the Iowa's smaller size. The Iowa's 16 inch guns were smaller, but they were devastatingly accurate. Japanese fire control was notoriously bad. The biggest guns in the world are useless if you don't hit anything. The Iowas were also faster.

[Wombat101]

That doesn't even begin to get into questions of superior damage control, redundant systems, initiative, on-the-spot ingenuity, etc.

They (the Yamatos) were great looking ships, and technical achievements, but (almost-) totally worthless in combat.

[JamesP81]

Heck, the bulk of the damage at Leyte Gulf was done by the ships previously SUNK or damaged at Pearl Harbor (raised, repaired and upgraded), and which were 1920's designs sporting 14 and 16 inch guns!

Yeah, I know. We blasted their new stuff to scrap with our old, worn out ships we were using because we didn't yet have enough new classes to replace them.

[gakrak]

I was about 3 1/2 yrs at that time and my cousin was on the USS BUNKER HILL (CG 52). Heres some history:
On 7 April 1945 Bunker Hill’s aircraft took part in a fast carrier task force attack on a Japanese naval force in the East China Sea. During the US attack, the Japanese superbattleship, Yamato, one cruiser, and four destroyers were sunk.
On the morning of 11 May 1945, while supporting the Okinawa invasion, Bunker Hill was hit and severely damaged by two suicide planes. The ship suffered the loss of 346 men killed, 43 missing, and 264 wounded. Although badly crippled, she managed to return to Bremerton, WA via Pearl Harbor.
They were very brave and I barely remember praying with my grandma for the sailors. Amen.

[Al Gator]

The Yamato was awe inspiring, with a disciplined and dedicated crew.

She would have won any battle she got into....in WWI.

Its always the case that we fight any war with the last war's technology, save a few innovations.

Just ask the Brits when they ran up against the Exocette in the Faulklands.

Good Day!

[JamesP81]

They (the Yamatos) were great looking ships, and technical achievements, but (almost-) totally worthless in combat.

Another thing to consider is that the strategic disposition didn't favor use of heavy capital ships by Japan. BBs were excellent for two things: air defence, and artillery fire support for ground troops. Japan had clearly opted against using them for air defense, and they weren't on the offensive, so using them for fire support of ground troops wasn't an option either.

[Wombat101]

"Just ask the Brits when they ran up against the Exocette in the Faulklands."

Or just ask the Brits when the Hood ate a bunch of 15" shells from the Bismark, or when the Repulse and Prince of Wales bought it at the hands of Japanese aircraft. Or how about when the Royal Oak got it at the hands of a WWI-suprlus German U-Boat?

How about when the Bismark was finally brought to heel by a collection of obsolete biplanes? Or the Italian fleet staggered by the same at Taranto?

Usually takes a tragedy to change long-held beliefs based upon "experience" and "tradition", doesn't it?

[PzLdr]

It's the sinking of the Japanese super battleship I.M.S YAMATO on her suicide run to Okinawa [only had fuel for a one way trip], where she intended to beach herself and provide fire support for the Japanese Army.

[Wombat101]

The conventional Japanese "strategery" of the day stressed the offense at all times. The Yamato was just the classic (and logical) continuation of that idea.

The "defensive" was a no-no in just about every area of Japanese military science; aircraft without armor or self-sealing fuel tanks, oxygen-powered torpedos that were extremely dangerous to handle and store, almost religiously downgrading the value and importance of serious reconnaisance (like at Midway), Bonzai attacks when husbanding of resources for future operations might have been a better option, and finally, kamikazes attacks when all else failed.

That was a cultural shortsightedness, though, that didn't really disappear until after Japan had been occupied.

[PzLdr]

Shinano was commissioned as the largest aircraft carrier of WW II. She put to sea transporting aircraft before completion. After being torpedoed by a U.S submarine [ARCHERFISH, I believe, and a single tonnage record], SHINANO's Capt. ordered her to proceed at speed. Her watertight doors wouldn't work, he wouldn't slow her speed and she sank [unbeknowst to the submarine, which had submerged].

[B-Chan]

Thanks.

[B-Chan]

Danke. Or should I say "domo"?

[Wombat101]

Could you imagine what would have happened had the Japanese been able to build, equip and man a squadron of Shinano's (say four or so), and provide them with the requisite protection and logistical support they needed?

Great Mariana's Turkey shoot? Probably not!

[PzLdr]

BISMARCK's rudder was jammed by a torpedo attack by Royal Navy Swordfish torpedo bombers [her AA fire control couldn't adjust for their slow speed], but they didn't bring him [German warships were referred to in the masculine] ' to heel'. That was done by the 16" guns of H.M.S RODNEY and the 14" guns of H.M.S KING GEORGE V, and the torpedoes of H.M.S DORSETSHIRE.

Although she was a flaming hulk, with all her main guns out of action, current evidence supports the claim of BISMARCK's crew that she was scuttled.

[Wombat101]

Despite all of that firepower arrayed against the Bismark (Rodney, Prince of Wales, KGV, etc), it was still an obsolete biplane that finally caught and damaged the Bismark to such an extent that she was a sitting duck.

None of the British ships you mention would have caught the Bismark (in an open seas chase) to engage her in a gun battle but for the damage caused by the Swordfish. In the one gun battle that occured prior to the Bismark's final demise, the "most powerful warship in the world" (the Hood) was done in by radar controlled-gunfire, fired by superior weapons, and a poor decision (in the battlecruiser concept itself) to sacrifice armor for speed. The tactics used (coming at the Bismark in such a way as that half the Hood's guns could not be brought to bear), merely compunded the problem.

The Prince of Wales served mainly as a target (because she was NOT ready for combat) and was lucky to escape.

The Germans might be right that the ship was scuttled, and that's open for debate. It still doesn't mean the Royal Navy's big guns finally brought the Bismark to heel. For all the good they did, those big guns might have just as well have stayed at Scapa Flow. It was the airplane that set the stage for the guns and torpedoes.

[JamesP81]

Although she was a flaming hulk, with all her main guns out of action, current evidence supports the claim of BISMARCK's crew that she was scuttled.

And if the Bismarck was that serious of a warship, just stop and think about trying to sink an Iowa class for a minute.

[Wombat101]

I think the Bismark would have given the Iowas a good run for their money, and handled properly, might have even triumphed under certain circumstances.

Just a poor decision to put to sea ina ship that couldn't steer by virtue of her own propellers in the event of loss of rudder.

But she was a formidible ship, no doubt.

[Larry Lucido]

A lot of stuff blew up, but I'm glad you asked for the specifics. :-)

[brazzaville]

Big ship, but she sank anyway. Payback's a bi**h.

There's probably a lesson there, but I don' know what it is.

Michael Frazier

[derllak]

Lol, me too! So many smart people on FR, which is why I come here to enlighten myself! :)

[ABG(anybody but Gore)]

Sorry, but in the ultimate dream match-up of a squadron of Yamatos versus a squadron of Iowas, the Iowas would have won.

Weren't we working on a class to replace the Iowas? The Montanas, I believe? They were canceled when the war ended. I don't really know the specs, but she was supposed to be one hellacious battlewagon.

[Mike Darancette]

1423: Sunk: The YAMATO's No. 1 magazine explodes and sends up a cloud of smoke seen 100 miles away. She slips under followed by an underwater explosion. The YAMATO sinks at 30-22 N, 128-04 E.

Blowed up real good!

[Wombat101]

Yes, there were plans for a Montana class, and (believe it or not) there were also the Alaska class (battle cruisers! Alaska, Guam and Hawaii)

However, the war proved that the battleship (in it's classic role of high-firepower boxer on the high seas) had seen better days and that no advance of technology would allow them to reprise that role in a world of carrier aircarft, submarines and guided missiles.

Even at that, the BB survived (the French built the last actual battleship in 1950, forget the name) because it's guns served other purposes. But it would never again be the standard by which navies counted their strength.

[COEXERJ145]

During the battle of Leyte Gulf, our battleships didn't get a chance to go up against a powerful Japanese fleet. They obliterated the remains of Southern Force which had one battleship,the Yamashiro, and a some smaller ships. The Japanese sailed right into the classic naval trap and the American fleet "crossed the 'T'". The Japanese fleet was blown out of the water during the last time in history when battleship faced battleship.

Had they opposed the Japanese "Center Force" they would have run into the Yamato, Kongo, and other battleships.

[COEXERJ145]

When the wreck of the Bismark was explored, it showed that most of the damage to the ship was caused by the 16 inch shells from H.M.S. Rodney while the 14 inch shells from H.M.S. King George V did very little overall damage.

Prince of Wales would have been totally outclassed even if she had been in top working condition. The Hood was really the only ship capable of going head to head with the Bismark in terms of firepower and speed. However, the difference in armor ensured that the Bismark had the advantage.

[Wombat101]

Who explored that wreck? I didn't know (or don't remember) that happening. Would be interesting to seer the pics and read the reports.

You know where I can find that info?

[ABG(anybody but Gore)]

The name battlecruiser always sounded cool, but IMO it was a flawed concept, as the Hood proved when she took on the Bismarck. As a raider, carriers and subs were better, and as a ship of the line, she was going up against better armored, and usually better armed battleships. You would think the Brits would have learned that lesson at Jutland.

[COEXERJ145]

Bob Ballard found the Bismarck but the last major expedition to it was funded by movie director James Cameron. They were the ones who found evidence that the Rodney did most of the damage to the ship with the KGV's shells tended to bounce off. There was a two hour show about a while back but for the life of me I can't remember what channel it came on.

[Wombat101]

I think the concept was sound, but expecting battle cruisers to be an effect part of the battle line was not.
The battalecruiser was NOT an adjunct to the battleship in those terms.

When used in ways not related to slugging it out at long distance against other battleships, the battle cruiser could be effective. The Scharnhorst, Geniesenau and Graf Spee were very effective commerce raiders, right? They're very presence caused allied navies to include battleships in convoy escort (a serious waste of resources!), at the very least.