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ISP Snooping Gaining Support
CNet ^ | 4/14/06 | Declan McCullagh

Posted on 04/14/2006 1:21:05 PM PDT by steve-b

The explosive idea of forcing Internet providers to record their customers' online activities for future police access is gaining ground in state capitols and in Washington, D.C....

Mandatory data retention requirements worry privacy advocates because they permit police to obtain records of e-mail chatter, Web browsing or chat-room activity that normally would have been discarded after a few months. And some proposals would require providers to retain data that ordinarily never would have been kept at all....

Jim Harper, director of information policy studies at the free-market Cato Institute, was the member of the Homeland Security's Data Privacy and Integrity Advisory Committee who asked Chertoff about data retention last month.

In an interview this week, Harper warned that mandatory data retention may cause more harm than good. "The true criminals will go and use random Wi-Fi nodes where you can get anonymous access," he said. "You haven't done anything but increase surveillance of law-abiding citizens."

(Excerpt) Read more at news.com.com ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Government; News/Current Events; Technical
KEYWORDS: 1984; bigbrother; billofrights; carnivore; constitutionlist; doubleplusgood; endofprivacy; govwatch; hsa; internet; jackbootedthugs; libertarians; noprivacy; patriotact; privacy; scamalert; snooping; youareyouripaddress
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Big Brother Is Watching You (not just what you're doing now, either...).
1 posted on 04/14/2006 1:21:05 PM PDT by steve-b
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To: steve-b

Oh, no they don't.

Nope.


2 posted on 04/14/2006 1:21:56 PM PDT by IncPen (Torture should be safe, legal, and rare.)
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To: steve-b
"You haven't done anything but increase surveillance of law-abiding citizens."

Might as well get on with it. It is inevitable that the politicians will give the 1984 solution a try.

The Internet, however is not without it's resources to combat the loss of privacy. PGP will grow like a weed. Encryption in general will become pervasive. It may be hard (but maybe not impossible) to hide where you go but you will be able to hide the transactions. And then, of course, they will try to outlaw encryption. Then we will all be criminals.

3 posted on 04/14/2006 1:30:32 PM PDT by InterceptPoint
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To: steve-b

Honestly, there's part of me that doesn't mind, the government has a warrant, it has the right to see anything. OTOH, with the precedent set that the government doesn't need a warrant for practically anything, my answer is HELL NO!


4 posted on 04/14/2006 1:32:21 PM PDT by antiRepublicrat
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To: IncPen

"I am here from the Office of Pre-crime."

5 posted on 04/14/2006 1:33:18 PM PDT by freedumb2003 (Don't call them "Illegal Aliens." Call them what they are: CRIMINAL INVADERS!)
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To: steve-b
If the government doesn't do something to control all of this internet communication we could have a serious outbreak of FREE SPEECH.
6 posted on 04/14/2006 1:33:20 PM PDT by FreePaul
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To: steve-b

Why build a system like Carnivore when you can just order the ISPs to do it for you?


7 posted on 04/14/2006 1:35:56 PM PDT by Yo-Yo (USAF, TAC, 12th AF, 366 TFW, 366 MG, 366 CRS, Mtn Home AFB, 1978-81)
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To: InterceptPoint
And then, of course, they will try to outlaw encryption. Then we will all be criminals.

Back to the good old days of Al Gore I guess -- clipper chip, key escrow, loads of fun. I know I refused to vote for Gore for a reason, but now I'm wondering why since things I feared under him are coming true anyway.

And check out the thread Phone Taps Just Got Impossible where some FReepers are apparently mad at the hindered snooping ability of the government.

8 posted on 04/14/2006 1:37:02 PM PDT by antiRepublicrat
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To: steve-b
A lot of countries spy on their citizens, China and Iran come to mind first. What political party is incharge now? Ahhhh yes, I will remember in November.
9 posted on 04/14/2006 1:38:06 PM PDT by Realism (Some believe that the facts-of-life are open to debate.....)
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To: steve-b

The solution to this is simple.

Set up a Virtual Private Network server in the Bahamas, attach it to a huge internet pipe, and sell a subscription service for access to the VPN service. All your internet traffic will be sent via the pipe to the Bahamas, encrypted, and it will appear, for all intents and purposes, that the internet traffic is originating in the Bahamas.

For most private usage purposes, this set up will work fine. High bandwidth requirements might be a problem, but I'm sure that problem can be solved with faster servers, compression, and more bandwidth.

(Okay, so this solution isn't that simple. The simplest solution would be to piggy back off your neighbor's wireless when you're doing something naughty.)


10 posted on 04/14/2006 1:39:00 PM PDT by coconutt2000 (NO MORE PEACE FOR OIL!!! DOWN WITH TYRANTS, TERRORISTS, AND TIMIDCRATS!!!! (3-T's For World Peace))
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To: steve-b
This would be tantamount to being able to come to your home and demand to see all your mail for the past - forever.

Gotta be illegal -

11 posted on 04/14/2006 1:39:33 PM PDT by maine-iac7 (",,,BUT YOU CAN'T FOOL ALL OF THE PEOPLE ALL THE TIME" Lincoln)
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To: steve-b

Nail American citizens but allow ILLEGALS to do as they please.


12 posted on 04/14/2006 1:39:35 PM PDT by INSENSITIVE GUY
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To: steve-b
The Internet protocol for the RADIUS server, the software that logs dial up users on and off the Internet, has always contained provisions for logging every site a user brings up in his browser.

Most ISP's keep such records at least for some period of time.

It is fairly hard to keep anything one does on the net a secret if someone wants to know what you are doing.

13 posted on 04/14/2006 1:39:57 PM PDT by Common Tator
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To: Realism
Ahhhh yes, I will remember in November

and you can make a case for being safer under the socialistDems????

14 posted on 04/14/2006 1:42:16 PM PDT by maine-iac7 (",,,BUT YOU CAN'T FOOL ALL OF THE PEOPLE ALL THE TIME" Lincoln)
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To: Yo-Yo
Why build a system like Carnivore when you can just order the ISPs to do it for you?

Exactly. That's "enlightened communism" and it's been going on for as long as I can remember.

15 posted on 04/14/2006 1:43:21 PM PDT by the invisib1e hand (Polls show Jesus' approval ratings at all time low, after a triumphant reception just a few days ago)
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To: steve-b

you are your ip address that big computer in the sky...


16 posted on 04/14/2006 1:44:23 PM PDT by the invisib1e hand (Polls show Jesus' approval ratings at all time low, after a triumphant reception just a few days ago)
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To: steve-b
I'd be all for this if it were a two-way street, meaning government entities were required to do the same thing, and to allow full access to the data to the public.

Like that would ever happen.

17 posted on 04/14/2006 1:44:35 PM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum (Islam Factoid:After forcing young girls to watch his men execute their fathers, Muhammad raped them.)
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To: maine-iac7
and you can make a case for being safer under the socialistDems????

I can hardly tell the difference anymore...

18 posted on 04/14/2006 1:44:36 PM PDT by Realism (Some believe that the facts-of-life are open to debate.....)
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To: steve-b

any legal eagles...how come the 5th ammendment no longer seems to work here?


19 posted on 04/14/2006 1:47:20 PM PDT by mo
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To: Realism

What you said.


20 posted on 04/14/2006 1:50:24 PM PDT by Jack Hammer
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To: mo
any legal eagles...how come the 5th ammendment no longer seems to work here?

Oh come on, the Constitution is just so passe these days. As far as Bush's government is concerned, they can have ANY info on you that is being kept by a third party without even bothering with a warrant.

21 posted on 04/14/2006 1:52:12 PM PDT by antiRepublicrat
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To: steve-b
This is so easily circumvented that the idea is dumb at face value. At MOST, the ISPs could record where you went. But with the application of IPSec and SSL tunneling, it would be easy enough to connect to a server outside of the US and then tunnel your traffic to other sites.
22 posted on 04/14/2006 1:53:36 PM PDT by taxcontrol
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To: InterceptPoint
It may be hard (but maybe not impossible) to hide where you go but you will be able to hide the transactions.

It's worth checking out Tor which allows for anonymous browsing.

23 posted on 04/14/2006 1:54:19 PM PDT by cryptical (Wretched excess is just barely enough.)
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To: coconutt2000
Cable and Wireless is headquartered in the Bahamas... High bandwidth WILL NOT be an issue.
24 posted on 04/14/2006 1:55:40 PM PDT by taxcontrol
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To: taxcontrol
This is so easily circumvented

Why should I have to be sneaky to have some privacy. Even if I'm just watching TV I don't want someone peering in my windows to make sure the movie is PG.

25 posted on 04/14/2006 2:01:48 PM PDT by Realism (Some believe that the facts-of-life are open to debate.....)
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To: cryptical
It's worth checking out Tor which allows for anonymous browsing.

Indeed it is. You make my point. The more talk there is about Government snooping on Internet Users the more you will see an acceleration in the development of applications like Tor.

Let the games begin.

26 posted on 04/14/2006 2:03:27 PM PDT by InterceptPoint
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To: steve-b

It's just a hidden tax on ISPs and will be passed along to customers. Who get to pay for this monitoring, overhead, and storage. You and me, that's who.


27 posted on 04/14/2006 2:05:28 PM PDT by glorgau
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To: maine-iac7

"and you can make a case for being safer under the socialistDems????"

Safe? I don't want to be safe. I want to be free.


28 posted on 04/14/2006 2:08:02 PM PDT by VRing (Nine out the ten voices in my head told me to stay home and clean my rifle today.)
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To: coconutt2000
Anonymous internet surfing
29 posted on 04/14/2006 2:11:17 PM PDT by FReepaholic (I was FReepin' when FReepin' wasn't cool.)
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To: coconutt2000
The simplest solution would be to piggy back off your neighbor's wireless when you're doing something naughty.

Don't forget to hack the ethernet MAC address on your card. Otherwise the particular computer used in the "transaction" will be traceable. For tips on this, Google is sometimes your friend.

America is all about freedom.

30 posted on 04/14/2006 2:12:20 PM PDT by glorgau
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To: traviskicks

libertarian ping wow that jorge agusto sure is reigning in the fed gov huh ?Thank god a majority of the people pulled the republican lever last election


31 posted on 04/14/2006 2:12:41 PM PDT by freepatriot32 (Holding you head high & voting Libertarian is better then holding your nose and voting republican)
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To: VRing
Safe? I don't want to be safe. I want to be free.

you got me - how can you be free if not safe?

and how are you going to be free under a socialist/communist/liberal run govt?

How is this preferable to a republican gov't - even if it has warts?

Your reasoning escapes me......

32 posted on 04/14/2006 2:14:20 PM PDT by maine-iac7 (",,,BUT YOU CAN'T FOOL ALL OF THE PEOPLE ALL THE TIME" Lincoln)
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To: E. Pluribus Unum

Mywish would be this: I could track spammers and pop-up writers and send them a message that would make their monitors explode and the computers shut down forever.


33 posted on 04/14/2006 2:16:06 PM PDT by sgtbono2002
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To: taxcontrol

i think you are right about this.
i'm not an info management wiz, but it seems that if the government starts to require the isp's to keep track of the content (in addition to the address) of sites that everybody visits, that the whole thing would come crashing down, since it would require infinite capacity to store everything.


34 posted on 04/14/2006 3:11:53 PM PDT by nechayev
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To: InterceptPoint
PGP will grow like a weed.

Only people who need to encript will bother to deal with the hassels of encriptation. Encription is big flag that says to NSA's computers, "Look at me!" NSA can crack your 128 bit PGP in a matter of minutes.

35 posted on 04/14/2006 3:43:21 PM PDT by Jeff Gordon (Is tractus pro pensio.)
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To: FReepaholic

That certainly works, but the VPN solution is elegant because it translocates your apparent point of origin to a network in the Bahamas. It can also be configured to funnel 100% of your internet traffic via the encrypted pipe so that somebody would have to be snooping the VPN gateway in the Bahamas in order to intercept your traffic, which would be outside of Federal jurisdiction.

100% of internet traffic includes file sharing/swapping services, chat programs, telnet, IRC, etc; and not just the web. Some VPN clients will even allow you to define exceptions to the rule so that legitimate network use can be broadcast normally over your network, or out to the internet unencrypted.

Quite literally VPN is the coolest privacy tool I've found. Although, I don't see why encrypted connections aren't used for everything already. Even just a simple compression algorithm would be enough to protect most data from casual snoopers.


36 posted on 04/14/2006 6:13:00 PM PDT by coconutt2000 (NO MORE PEACE FOR OIL!!! DOWN WITH TYRANTS, TERRORISTS, AND TIMIDCRATS!!!! (3-T's For World Peace))
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To: freepatriot32; albertp; Allosaurs_r_us; Abram; Americanwolfsbrother; AlexandriaDuke; ...
"The true criminals will go and use random Wi-Fi nodes where you can get anonymous access," he said. "You haven't done anything but increase surveillance of law-abiding citizens."





Libertarian ping! To be added or removed from my ping list freepmail me or post a message here.
37 posted on 04/14/2006 6:14:30 PM PDT by traviskicks (http://www.neoperspectives.com/israel_palestine_conflict.htm)
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To: steve-b
Islamonazi Iran

Communist North Korea

Communist China

Communist Cuba

Islamonazi Syria

Iraq

Russia

.

.

Gee! What a great club to join. I mean, if it is good enough for North Korea and Iran, it must be good enough for America.

38 posted on 04/14/2006 6:30:58 PM PDT by M203M4
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To: INSENSITIVE GUY
Nail American citizens but allow ILLEGALS to do as they please.

It's getting to be like there's no special status for being a Citizen. Maybe in the eyes of politicians we're all Illegals now. It's what you can do for the politician, not who you think you are and what intrinsic rights you've been deluded to presume you have.

39 posted on 04/14/2006 6:46:04 PM PDT by kcar ( What demographic voting block are you?)
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To: mo
any legal eagles...how come the 5th ammendment no longer seems to work here?

5th ammendment? I saw it at a thrift shop next to the 10th ammendment. No 16th ammendment though.
40 posted on 04/14/2006 6:50:40 PM PDT by Kokojmudd (Outsource GM to a Red State! Put Walmart in charge of all Federal agencies!)
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To: coconutt2000

Damn, did I move to China? I thought this was America, guess I was wrong.


41 posted on 04/14/2006 6:57:31 PM PDT by rattrap
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To: traviskicks
The good news is...........they can't possibly lock us all up.

Who would be left to bust their @sses, only to have an increasingly-large percentage of their income and net worth confiscated to equip these people and pay their salaries?

Oops! Never mind. Most people apparently think paying taxes is a privilege. The more, the better.

42 posted on 04/14/2006 7:44:49 PM PDT by elkfersupper
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Comment #43 Removed by Moderator

To: antiRepublicrat

the details in this article are downright insane, especially Chertoff's comments.

can you imagine the size of the sniffers and the disk arrays needed if every web page every person visited was logged for up to two years, as well as every email?

and how do they filter out the spam porn mail that we all get as being an "illegitimate" part of the traffic that flows to us? or is everyone who get porn spam a sex offender now?

the administration is going too far here - this is what I can't stand, they take a legitimate program like the overseas phone taps, which most americans support, and then they try and parlay it into this monster.


44 posted on 04/14/2006 8:39:35 PM PDT by oceanview
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To: nechayev

government is comprised of mostly dummy beauracrats - look at chertoff's comments in the article. they just issue mandates - "store everything that flows over the internet for 2 years" - and expect industry to just magically do it. in the meantime, the FBI can't get email to work for its agents.

if this ever passed - buy stock in disk array makers.


45 posted on 04/14/2006 8:42:55 PM PDT by oceanview
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To: mo

Current law states that any records that are over six months old require only a warrent to see. Records less than six months old require a subpeona.

That's why Google's policy of making it difficult to delete your Gmails is so pernicious.


46 posted on 04/14/2006 8:44:29 PM PDT by Philistone (Turning lead into gold...)
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To: steve-b

47 posted on 04/14/2006 8:49:03 PM PDT by timestax
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To: IncPen

48 posted on 04/14/2006 8:50:47 PM PDT by timestax
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To: Jeff Gordon
Only people who need to encript will bother to deal with the hassels of encriptation. Encription is big flag that says to NSA's computers, "Look at me!" NSA can crack your 128 bit PGP in a matter of minutes.

OK then people will go to 256 bits or 1024 bits. Even NSA has it's limits in terms of capability and resources. The fact of the matter is that most people don't use things like PGP because there is no real need. But once the Government decides they want to read your e-mail, check out the web sites you are visiting then the apps will be written to make hiding yourself easy and common. Just a natural reaction. It doesn't have to be that way but that's the way it will probably go. Time will tell.

49 posted on 04/14/2006 8:56:29 PM PDT by InterceptPoint
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To: InterceptPoint

50 posted on 04/14/2006 8:57:01 PM PDT by timestax
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