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First Knights Templar Discovered
Daily Telegraph (UK) ^ | 4-10-2006

Posted on 04/17/2006 2:34:31 PM PDT by blam

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To: ExcursionGuy84
Scene 3

[clop clop]
ARTHUR: Old woman!
DENNIS: Man!
ARTHUR: Man, sorry. What knight live in that castle over there?
DENNIS: I'm thirty seven.
ARTHUR: What?
DENNIS: I'm thirty seven -- I'm not old!
ARTHUR: Well, I can't just call you 'Man'.
DENNIS: Well, you could say 'Dennis'.
ARTHUR: Well, I didn't know you were called Dennis.
DENNIS: Well, you didn't bother to find out, did you?
ARTHUR: I did say sorry about the old woman, but from the behind you looked--
DENNIS: What I object to is you automatically treat me like an inferior!
ARTHUR: Well, I AM king...
DENNIS: Oh king, eh, very nice. An' how'd you get that, eh? By exploitin' the workers -- by 'angin' on to outdated imperialist dogma which perpetuates the economic an' social differences in our society! If there's ever going to be any progress--
WOMAN: Dennis, there's some lovely filth down here. Oh -- how'd you do?
ARTHUR: How do you do, good lady. I am Arthur, King of the Britons. Who's castle is that?
WOMAN: King of the who?
ARTHUR: The Britons.
WOMAN: Who are the Britons?
ARTHUR: Well, we all are. we're all Britons and I am your king.
WOMAN: I didn't know we had a king. I thought we were an autonomous collective.
DENNIS: You're fooling yourself. We're living in a dictatorship. A self-perpetuating autocracy in which the working classes--
WOMAN: Oh there you go, bringing class into it again.
DENNIS: That's what it's all about if only people would--
ARTHUR: Please, please good people. I am in haste. Who lives in that castle?
WOMAN: No one live there.
ARTHUR: Then who is your lord?
WOMAN: We don't have a lord.
ARTHUR: What?
DENNIS: I told you. We're an anarchosyndicalist commune. We take it in turns to act as a sort of executive officer for the week.
ARTHUR: Yes.
DENNIS: But all the decision of that officer have to be ratified at a special biweekly meeting.
ARTHUR: Yes, I see.
DENNIS: By a simple majority in the case of purely internal affairs,--
ARTHUR: Be quiet!
DENNIS: --but by a two-thirds majority in the case of more--
ARTHUR: Be quiet! I order you to be quiet!
WOMAN: Order, eh -- who does he think he is?
ARTHUR: I am your king!
WOMAN: Well, I didn't vote for you.
ARTHUR: You don't vote for kings.
WOMAN: Well, 'ow did you become king then?
ARTHUR: The Lady of the Lake, [angels sing] her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite, held aloft Excalibur from the bosom of the water signifying by Divine Providence that I, Arthur was to carry Excalibur. [singing stops] That is why I am your king!
DENNIS: Listen -- strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.
ARTHUR: Be quiet!
DENNIS: Well you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just 'cause some watery tart threw a sword at you!
ARTHUR: Shut up!
DENNIS: I mean, if I went around sayin' I was an empereror just because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me they'd put me away!
ARTHUR: Shut up! Will you shut up!
DENNIS: Ah, now we see the violence inherent in the system.
ARTHUR: Shut up!
DENNIS: Oh! Come and see the violence inherent in the system!
HELP! HELP! I'm being repressed!
ARTHUR: Bloody peasant!
DENNIS: Oh, what a give away. Did you here that, did you here that, eh? That's what I'm on about -- did you see him repressing me, you saw it didn't you?

101 posted on 04/17/2006 7:56:39 PM PDT by Lessismore
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To: blam; FairOpinion; StayAt HomeMother; Ernest_at_the_Beach; 24Karet; 3AngelaD; ...
Thanks Blam.

To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list. Thanks.
Please FREEPMAIL me if you want on or off the
"Gods, Graves, Glyphs" PING list or GGG weekly digest
-- Archaeology/Anthropology/Ancient Cultures/Artifacts/Antiquities, etc.
Gods, Graves, Glyphs (alpha order)

102 posted on 04/17/2006 9:55:16 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: blam
Speaking of Knights Templar... anyone here read Eco's Focult's Pendulum?

It is not an easy read... it may be 2,000 years before I finish it, but damn, I WILL FINISH IT.

103 posted on 04/17/2006 10:02:17 PM PDT by Trajan88 (www.bullittclub.com)
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To: rvoitier

bttt


104 posted on 04/17/2006 10:06:29 PM PDT by nopardons
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To: Strategerist

Yes, not an easy book to get into, but once there, it's really quite a good book.


105 posted on 04/17/2006 10:09:28 PM PDT by nopardons
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To: Trajan88

I read it but I don't remember it. Maybe in 200 years it will come back to me.


106 posted on 04/17/2006 10:16:19 PM PDT by hedgetrimmer ("I'm a millionaire thanks to the WTO and "free trade" system--Hu Jintao top 10 worst dictators)
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To: restornu

BTTT


107 posted on 04/17/2006 10:17:53 PM PDT by nopardons
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To: blam

Ultra-mega Fish Slap making the sound(swissh-BLAM)...


108 posted on 04/17/2006 10:19:08 PM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole..)
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To: ExcursionGuy84
Gallahad: Let me face a little bit of peril!

Lancelot: No! It's too perilous!

Gallahad: I bet you're gay!

Lancelot: ..........No, I'm not!

109 posted on 04/17/2006 10:26:05 PM PDT by uglybiker (Don't blame me. I didn't make you stupid.)
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To: newgeezer

This seems strange to me. In the lower vault of the Temple Church in London, England, there are the stone sarcophagi (sic) of a number of Templars.


110 posted on 04/18/2006 3:59:20 AM PDT by Jimmy Valentine (DemocRATS - when they speak, they lie; when they are silent, they are stealing the American Dream)
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To: Dog Gone

Amber Alerts? Back then? No, back then they would have been "Tree-Sap Alerts"!


111 posted on 04/18/2006 4:32:24 AM PDT by Hegemony Cricket (Rage is the fuel that powers the islamic machine)
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To: Strategerist

So is it another book that takes the usual cheap shots at the RCC?


112 posted on 04/18/2006 5:51:31 AM PDT by Romish_Papist (St. Jude, pray for my lost cause. St. Rita, pray for my impossible situation.)
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To: Lessismore

LOL-25 years later and I am stil laughing at that scene. Pure genius.


113 posted on 04/18/2006 5:56:11 AM PDT by MattinNJ (Allen/Pawlenty in 08-play the map.)
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To: Wormwood
I love Foucault's Pendulum! And I saw a lot of similarities in it with the DC. A great book!
114 posted on 04/18/2006 5:56:36 AM PDT by twigs
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To: blam

"I'm not dead, yet. Let's just call it a draw."


115 posted on 04/18/2006 5:57:11 AM PDT by Lee'sGhost (Crom!)
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To: Plutarch

I thought it meant they were gay.


116 posted on 04/18/2006 5:59:50 AM PDT by Lee'sGhost (Crom!)
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To: mnehrling
Even without reference to the Da Vinci Code, it's confusing. The "first bodies?" " What is that supposed to mean? They've never discovered remains of members of this widespread order before (untrue)? ......Or these were the "first" in that they were the founders of the order?...or the first to die in battle?

Unfortunately, clarity is not valued among journalists half as much as sensationalism.

117 posted on 04/18/2006 6:09:21 AM PDT by cookcounty (Army Vet, Army Dad.)
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To: Strategerist

Wonderful book, and I had a hard time taking DaVinci Code seriously having read Eco's book first.


118 posted on 04/18/2006 6:15:34 AM PDT by Steelerfan
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To: muir_redwoods
" ....hailed the find as the first provable example of actual Knights Templar."

That is indeed nuts. There are Knights Templar artifacts all over France, most of which were never "lost." My favorite is their monastary at Temple-sur-Lot in SW France, which houses a really great restaurant (friendly to Americans!) named "La Commanderie."

119 posted on 04/18/2006 6:15:44 AM PDT by cookcounty (Army Vet, Army Dad.)
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To: blam
Soon they will find the ancient manuscript of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion too, eh?
120 posted on 04/18/2006 6:27:08 AM PDT by XR7
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To: cookcounty

The article is exceedingly poorly written. The author clearly did not understand that all the excitement was in reference to finding the remains of "a" Knight Templar ... bones in a grave, with more than sufficient provenance to authenticate.


121 posted on 04/18/2006 6:54:12 AM PDT by RegulatorCountry
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To: PISANO

They know the date the castle fell, therefore they know the exact date of death. Rare indeed.


122 posted on 04/18/2006 7:40:01 AM PDT by Tallguy (When it's a bet between reality and delusion, bet on reality -- Mark Steyn)
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To: cyborg

Or even five years from now?


123 posted on 04/18/2006 7:28:09 PM PDT by baa39
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To: Meadow Muffin

http://www.templarhistory.com/addison.html


124 posted on 11/22/2007 12:16:06 AM PST by Ironmajor (nnDnn, “Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum”)
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To: Meadow Muffin; blam

The Battle of Jacob’s Ford was fought in 1179 between the Kingdom of Jerusalem and the forces of Saladin. The site is also known by the Latin name of Vadum Iacob and in modern Hebrew as Ateret.

In October 1178, King Baldwin IV of Jerusalem and the Knights Templar began building the castle of Chastellet at the site of Jacob’s Ford, the only crossing place of the Jordan River and the main route from Saladin’s Empire to the Kingdom of Jerusalem. The castle was only a day’s march away from Damascus, Saladin’s capital, and would severely undermine his authority there. At the beginning of construction Saladin was away quelling a rebellion in Lebanon. The castle was set to rival the size of Crac des Chevaliers but when Saladin returned, only the castle’s first ring of walls was finished, standing ten metres high and only one tower was completed with the rest of the castle still unfinished.

In the Spring of 1179 several skirmishes took place, mainly with Saladin victorious. Baldwin retreated to Tiberias and later Jerusalem to regroup, while Saladin summoned reinforcements from northern Syria and Egypt. By August 1179 Saladin was ready to assault Jacob’s Ford. Baldwin was now stationed at Tiberias, only a half-day’s march away. Saladin began by bombarding the castle with arrows from the east and west and then sending specialist miners to sap the walls by filling a tunnel under the wall with brush and setting a fire to cause the roof to collapse bringing the wall down with it. The tunnel was completed on the fourth day of the seige but the fire failed due to the tunnel not being directly under the wall. Saladin was now expecting Baldwin to arrive soon and force his retreat so he needed to continue the sapping immediately but with the fire still raging it was now impossible. Saladin offered a gold coin for each man who volunteered to put the fire out which they did by carrying buckets of water from the Jordan river. The volunteers suffered heavy casualties due to the Crusaders concentrating their fire on them in an attempt to buy time for Baldwins arrival. With the fire out, the tunnel was extended and set afire again on the fifth day causing a breach through which Saladin poured his men, killing 800 of the garrison and taking a further 700 captive who he then had executed. Saladin ordered his men to fill the castle well with the bodies of slain men and horses, spoiling the water source for many years to come and deterring reconstruction on the site. Baldwin arrived six hours later and, seeing his castle in flames, turned back. Saladin dismantled the castle, but not before a “plague” ravaged his army killing ten of his commanders.


125 posted on 11/22/2007 3:00:41 AM PST by Ironmajor (nnDnn, “Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum”)
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To: Meadow Muffin; blam

Development of Jacob’s Ford

Reconstruction of the fortress of Jacob’s Ford In October 1178 Baldwin set out to construct a castle which would destabilise Saladin’s nascent empire and shift the balance of power in his own favour - the fortress of Jacob’s Ford.

He began fortifying a strip of raised ground on the west bank of the River Jordan, beside an ancient ford north of the Sea of Galilee. With swamps upstream and rapids to the south, this ford was the only crossing of the Jordan for 50 miles and, as such, acted as a gateway between Latin Palestine and Muslim Syria.

‘It stood in a frontier zone contested by both Baldwin and Saladin - a kind of no-man’s-land between their respective realms’
But Jacob’s Ford did not lie on the Crusader’s side of a literal border line. Instead it stood in a frontier zone contested by both Baldwin and Saladin - a kind of no-man’s-land between their respective realms. Add to this the fact that Jacob’s Ford was just one day’s march from Damascus, and it becomes clear that Baldwin was, in 1178, adopting an audacious, even visionary, strategy.

His new castle was designed to be a defensive tool as well as an offensive weapon, to severely inhibit Saladin’s ability to invade the Latin kingdom while simultaneously undermining the sultan’s security in Damascus. If completed, this fortress could thwart Saladin’s ambitions for an empire stretching into northern Syria and Mesopotamia.

Baldwin took his new project at Jacob’s Ford exceptionally seriously, committing practically the entire resources of his realm to its construction. Between October 1178 and April 1179 he actually moved his seat of government to the building site to be on hand as supervisor and protector. He also enlisted the aid of the Templars, a military order that combined the ideals of knighthood and monasticism in the sacred pursuit of the Holy Land’s defence

The Battle at Jacob’s Ford

Reconstruction of Muslims and Crusaders fighting at Jacob’s Ford At dawn on Thursday 29 August 1179, the great Muslim sultan Saladin launched a deadly assault on the Crusader castle of Jacob’s Ford in the Holy Land. As his troops poured through a burning breach in the walls, the Christian garrison of elite Templar knights made a bloody, but ultimately futile, last stand.

In a final act of bravery the Templar commander mounted his warhorse and charged into the fray. One of Saladin’s lieutenants later described how ‘he threw himself into a hole full of fire without fear of the intense heat and, from this brazier, he was immediately thrown into another - that of Hell’.

‘He threw himself into a hole full of fire without fear of the intense heat...’
On that day 800 of the garrison were butchered, and a further 700 taken captive. With the stronghold overrun, Saladin set about razing it to the ground, later claiming that he ripped the foundation stones out with his own hands. The site was then abandoned and for eight centuries it lay untouched, its story all but forgotten.

The true significance of Jacob’s Ford, around 50 miles north-west of Jerusalem, is only now becoming apparent. With its location rediscovered and archaeological excavation underway, it now appears that the fall of this seemingly obscure fortress was actually a pivotal moment in the history of the Crusades as well as the wider struggle between Islam and the West.


126 posted on 11/22/2007 3:05:41 AM PST by Ironmajor (nnDnn, “Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum”)
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To: Billthedrill
Yeah, yeah. Like you never forgot where you parked your car?

I lost my virginity when I was 16 and I'm still looking for it.

127 posted on 11/22/2007 3:10:53 AM PST by MARTIAL MONK
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To: UCANSEE2

They did not come up with the date or, date the battle site to that date because of the archeological discovery; it was a matter of historical record that the battle took place on 29 Aug 1179. They were mesmerized to have discovered this site already knowing the exact date it took place. As they looked at the remains, they thought and wondered what it must have been like on that exact date.


128 posted on 11/22/2007 3:11:26 AM PST by Ironmajor (nnDnn, “Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum”)
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To: Ironmajor

Thanks. I guess I was misreading it.


129 posted on 11/23/2007 12:19:16 AM PST by UCANSEE2 (- Attention all planets of the solar Federation--Secret plan codeword: Banana)
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To: blam; SunkenCiv

Thanks for the great post. The real story of the Knights Templar is an important one in the study of christianity, and the Judeo-Christian cukture of the West.

Too bad The Da Vinci Code mucked things up so badly.


130 posted on 11/23/2007 12:28:23 AM PST by Cincinna (HILLARY & HER HINO :: Keep the Arkansas Grifters out of the White house.)
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To: nechayev
probably the calendar watches that were worn by the knights were broken during the battle, so the archaeologists just had to read the time and date.

Yes, but the watches they had in 1179 would have been keeping JST (Julian Standard Time) and not GST (Gregorian Standard Time) and the article doesn't mention if the reported date has been converted to our modern calendar or not.

131 posted on 11/23/2007 12:48:25 AM PST by Zack Attack
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To: blam; StayAt HomeMother; Ernest_at_the_Beach; 1ofmanyfree; 24Karet; 3AngelaD; 49th; ...

· join list or digest · view topics · view or post blog · bookmark · post a topic ·

 
Gods
Graves
Glyphs
Thanks Blam.

To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list.
GGG managers are Blam, StayAt HomeMother, and Ernest_at_the_Beach
 

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132 posted on 11/23/2007 8:33:24 PM PST by SunkenCiv (Profile updated Sunday, November 18, 2007"'"'"'"'"'"'"'"'"'"'https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: SunkenCiv

Ai-yi-yi-Yi-yi!

You’re presenting this stuff on a holiday weekend???
*sigh*

I’m full of turkey, side dishes, and various alcoholic beverages, and this ar-tickle makes my brain hurt.

It doesn’t want to WORK!


133 posted on 11/23/2007 9:04:04 PM PST by Monkey Face (If we are what we eat, I'm cheap, fast and easy.)
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To: Steelerfan; Strategerist; Trajan88; Wormwood; blu; blam; nopardons
Conspiracists -- at least those who can read -- go all frothy at the mouth over Foucault's Pendulum precisely because Eco nails their pathology so neatly. In a nutshell, they devise conspiracies in order to (a) make sense of history and the world, and (b) bolster their sense of self-importance. Possibly not in that order.
134 posted on 11/23/2007 9:52:16 PM PST by Tenniel2 ("After a glimpse of Democrats in power, Republicans don't look so bad" -- Jack Kelly)
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To: Monkey Face

The Crusades, and the Crusaders — another thing for which to give thanks. :’)


135 posted on 11/23/2007 10:21:53 PM PST by SunkenCiv (Profile updated Sunday, November 18, 2007"'"'"'"'"'"'"'"'"'"'https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: Verginius Rufus

You are correct, Sir. Hence ‘Salah Ad Din’ Province.

Regards,


136 posted on 11/23/2007 10:26:36 PM PST by Thunder 6
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To: blam

The Templars are a great subject for fiction writers as well as pseudo-historic pop culture writers.

Since they were essentially a secret society who gained great wealth and lands and then were persecuted and wiped out by Phillip the Fair, their story presents all kinds of opportunities for fictional accounts.

I don’t know what the problem is with people who attack the writers of these books as long as they are clearly fiction and meant for entertainment. If they blend in some accurate history with the fiction, so much the better.


137 posted on 11/24/2007 12:44:29 AM PST by wildbill
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To: RegulatorCountry
"British historian Tom Asbridge yesterday hailed the find as the first provable example of actual Knights Templar."

I find this confusing, especially from a British Historian. There are all manner of Templar properties in England and Scotland,including the Temple Church in London.

138 posted on 11/24/2007 3:59:59 AM PST by Jimmy Valentine (DemocRATS - when they speak, they lie; when they are silent, they are stealing the American Dream)
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To: Jimmy Valentine
This thread started April 2006....
..did you all notice this or does it matter?
139 posted on 11/24/2007 4:04:56 AM PST by Guenevere (Duncan Hunter...President '08)
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To: PISANO

No doubt they brought in CSI to confirm the precise time of death.


140 posted on 11/24/2007 5:13:29 AM PST by Huber (And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. - John 1:5)
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To: Guenevere

woops!No I did not. Still kind of confusing, though.


141 posted on 11/24/2007 5:19:24 AM PST by Jimmy Valentine (DemocRATS - when they speak, they lie; when they are silent, they are stealing the American Dream)
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To: blam

The Knights Templar still exist.


142 posted on 11/24/2007 5:44:31 AM PST by bannie
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To: blam

They should be reintered as heroes and among the first Christians to die fighting the Islamic menace.


143 posted on 11/24/2007 6:30:29 AM PST by ZULU (Non nobis, non nobis Domine, sed nomini tuo da gloriam. God, guts and guns made America great.)
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To: newgeezer

Which motion picture?


144 posted on 11/24/2007 6:31:03 AM PST by ZULU (Non nobis, non nobis Domine, sed nomini tuo da gloriam. God, guts and guns made America great.)
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To: Jimmy Valentine

I think the author is using “first” interchangeably with “earliest,” here.


145 posted on 11/24/2007 7:24:11 AM PST by RegulatorCountry
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To: wildbill
I don’t know what the problem is with people who attack the writers of these books as long as they are clearly fiction and meant for entertainment. If they blend in some accurate history with the fiction, so much the better.

The problem is not with the books. We have had historical fiction as a genre forever. The problem is that with the deterioration of education and the cynical marketing by unscrupulous authors, who deliberately blur the boundaries of what is 'clearly fiction."

Too many people no longer can tell the difference between "accurate history" and fiction, and there is a media echo chamber which profits by encouraging ignorance. Recall how many times the author of daVinci Code was interviewed on TV and acted as if his schlock was a genuine hypothesis. Imagine how many people think the Code is real: millions no doubt.

146 posted on 11/24/2007 7:30:17 AM PST by hinckley buzzard
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To: UCANSEE2

one of the dead guys had a newspaper in his backpack. they took the date from that.

headline in the newspaper was “christianity is doomed, withdraw the templars before december”


147 posted on 11/24/2007 7:38:57 AM PST by beebuster2000 (choice is not not peace or war, but small war now, or big war later masquerading as peace now.)
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To: blam

The Davinci Code has absolutely nothing to do with historical fact. The reporter is as intellectually shallow as oil on a mirror.


148 posted on 11/24/2007 7:40:36 AM PST by Redleg Duke ("All gave some, and some gave all!")
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To: ApplegateRanch
"I met an 88 degree Mason on a job, once. He couldn't lay a square corner if his life depended on it."Did you give him the 2nd degree? ;^)
149 posted on 11/24/2007 8:29:50 AM PST by Cvengr (Every believer is a grenade. Arrogance is the grenade pin. Pull the pin and fragment your life.)
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To: hinckley buzzard

Well, these authors (Berry and Brown) are getting an awful lot of flack here among the literate cognoscenti who should know better.

I never saw Brown blur the line between fiction and truth on any interview. He does point out the factual history he used, but he always states his book and the Code are fiction.

I think the antagonism problem occurs when folks think their religion is being undermined by fictional accounts that question the truth of doctrine or dogma. Of course, that doesn’t happen if they truly have faith in the tenets of their church.


150 posted on 11/24/2007 8:33:37 AM PST by wildbill
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