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Itís This Bad [Outsanding from Dalrymple on England's descent into liberal hell]
City Journal ^ | 4/18/2006 | Theodore Dalrymple

Posted on 04/19/2006 5:32:55 PM PDT by Uncledave

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Simply brilliant
1 posted on 04/19/2006 5:32:58 PM PDT by Uncledave
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To: Uncledave

2 posted on 04/19/2006 5:39:22 PM PDT by RKV ( He who has the guns, makes the rules.)
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To: Uncledave

Pretty bad when you have to move to France.


3 posted on 04/19/2006 5:40:14 PM PDT by tet68 ( " We would not die in that man's company, that fears his fellowship to die with us...." Henry V.)
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To: Uncledave
. . .zeitgeist of the country is now one of sentimental moralizing combined with the utmost cynicism . . .

Sounds much like another country I know.

4 posted on 04/19/2006 5:44:57 PM PDT by madprof98
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To: Uncledave

England is in the grips of Liberalism and this is just one of the results.

Advanced stage would be when a Blair is gone and a Mugabe takes over. Just a case of moving from "moderate" liberalism to the end product.

This is because Liberalism is social AIDS. Once entrenched, it removes a country's ability to resist more serious social diseases such as despotism.


5 posted on 04/19/2006 5:45:59 PM PDT by OldArmy52 (China & India: Doing jobs Americans don't want to do (manuf., engineering, accounting, etc))
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To: Uncledave
“If there were real justice,” he said, “they would have gone to prison for life.” Could any compassionate person disagree?

A CLOCKWORK ORANGE comes to reality.

Of course if Mr Wareing had been armed and shot his attackers, they would have thrown him in prison - and for a lot longer than nine months!

6 posted on 04/19/2006 5:47:46 PM PDT by Rummyfan
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To: Uncledave
"soft and creeping totalitarianism "

Before you realize it, its too damn late to do anything short of revolution to change it.....it's a sad state of affairs - and it may move across the Atlantic.

7 posted on 04/19/2006 5:48:05 PM PDT by 45Auto (Big holes are (almost) always better.)
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To: Uncledave

There is an absence of any kind of idealism that is a necessary precondition of probity, so that bad faith prevails almost everywhere.

Excellent point. Without idealism, without the idea that there is something greater than our individual selves, without ideals to aspire to we sink to the cynicism and hopelessness that is symptomatic of leftism.

8 posted on 04/19/2006 5:57:06 PM PDT by SuzyQue
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To: Uncledave
“Excuse me,” said the young man to the policeman, “do you realize your horse is gay?”

He was arrested and charged under the Public Order Act for having made a “homophobic remark."

Europe is decadent.

The Islamic imperialists, the Chinese oligarchy, the Marxist and sociopathic leaders of the Western Left, and all other enemies of Western Civilization are well aware of this.

The only people who don't seem to know this are the morons who compose the rank and file of the Left, but these morons are too stupid to comprehend anything. That's why they're Leftists.

9 posted on 04/19/2006 6:02:21 PM PDT by Savage Beast ( The Spirit of Flight 93 is the Spirit of America. R.I.P., Todd Beamer.)
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To: Uncledave
One consequence of the liberal intelligentsia’s long march through the institutions is the acceptance of the category of Thoughtcrime. On the other hand, political correctness permits genuine incitement to murder—such as the behead those who insult islam placards carried by Muslim demonstrators in London four months after the publication of cartoons of Mohammed in a Danish newspaper—to go completely unpunished. Other people, other customs.

The result when PC is taken to its (il)logical end.

But one does not feel the defects of a foreign country in quite the same lacerating way as the defects of one’s native land; they are more an object of amused, detached interest than of personal despair.

I don't know, reading this filled me with despair, and I'm not even a Brit. Are they past the point of no return I wonder?

10 posted on 04/19/2006 6:04:38 PM PDT by Rummyfan
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To: Uncledave

Brilliant. Beautifully written. There's nothing like a well-educated British writer. Those with the best educations in England have always been well educated indeed.

But perhaps that is no longer true. A sad business.


11 posted on 04/19/2006 6:07:29 PM PDT by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: SuzyQue

Chirac boasts of hedonism. In Britain and Ukraine that means drunkeness, as far as I can tell.


12 posted on 04/19/2006 6:16:17 PM PDT by ClaireSolt (.)
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To: Uncledave
Yep, I last visited Great Britain on vacation in 2000 and everything I've read of that country since has reinforced my determination to never ever go there again. The inmates are firmly in charge of the asylum.

It's a shame too. My wife and I spent our honeymoon there and went several times after that. It's a fascinating and beautiful country, but it ain't worth my life.

13 posted on 04/19/2006 6:16:27 PM PDT by OldPossum
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To: Uncledave
“If there were real justice,” he said, “they would have gone to prison for life.” Could any compassionate person disagree?

Slight disagreement. If there were real justice, the attackers would have been dead.

Otherwise, a great article. Thanks for posting it.

14 posted on 04/19/2006 6:19:50 PM PDT by PGalt (Compassion for the guilty is TREASON to the innocent)
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To: Uncledave
I wonder when the English will revolt. Their greatness is in there somewhere.
15 posted on 04/19/2006 6:20:50 PM PDT by Nuc1 (NUC1 Sub pusher SSN 668 (Liberals Aren't Patriots))
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To: Uncledave

We in America should bow our heads every day and thank God for giving our nation's founders the wisdom to write and include the Second Amendment in the Bill of Rights. I realize that the Second Amendment was included primarily as a tool for armed revolution against a possible future tyrannical government, but it also comes in mighty handy for dealing with common street thugs as well.


16 posted on 04/19/2006 6:20:56 PM PDT by Lancey Howard
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bump


17 posted on 04/19/2006 6:22:07 PM PDT by Drew68
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To: Uncledave

bump


18 posted on 04/19/2006 6:25:46 PM PDT by fso301
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To: 45Auto
Before you realize it, its too damn late to do anything short of revolution to change it.....it's a sad state of affairs - and it may move across the Atlantic.

If the Dems come back or the Pubs don't grow some cojones it will.

19 posted on 04/19/2006 6:27:13 PM PDT by Tribune7
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To: Uncledave
One definition of decadence is the concentration on the gratifyingly imaginary to the disregard of the disconcertingly real. -Theodore Dalrymple

E.G. "I'm protesting Bush trampling on civil liberties" versus ignoring Islamic extremists that blow you up or put you under Sharia law.

20 posted on 04/19/2006 6:27:23 PM PDT by NutCrackerBoy
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To: Uncledave

Next thing you know they will be issuing warning tickets for
rape...or turning their backs on muslims building giant mosques and planning terror attacks from them...


21 posted on 04/19/2006 6:27:29 PM PDT by joesnuffy
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To: Rummyfan

Are WE past the point of no return I wonder?


Greart article BTW.


22 posted on 04/19/2006 6:32:32 PM PDT by listenhillary (The original Contract with America - The U.S. Constitution)
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To: OldPossum; Uncledave
"...It's a shame too. My wife and I spent our honeymoon there and went several times after that. It's a fascinating and beautiful country, but it ain't worth my life..."

What the author doesn't apparently realize is that, since effective gun-banning is in place in England- all violence has now stopped.

Therefore, if you suffer an accident at the hands of a mob, you need to realize that it was love that hurt you.

23 posted on 04/19/2006 6:33:43 PM PDT by pickrell (Old dog, new trick...sort of)
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To: Uncledave

You've gotta love anyone who properly uses the term "Pecksniffian" in an article.

But, France? Oh dear. . .


24 posted on 04/19/2006 6:35:02 PM PDT by alwaysconservative (Golden immigration rule: You have only the rights we would if we entered Mexico illegally.)
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To: Uncledave
"Both received sentences of 18 months, with an automatic nine-month remission, more or less as of right. In other words, they would serve nine months in prison for having destroyed the health and career of a completely innocent man, caused his wife untold suffering, and deprived three young children of a normal father."

Kill or permanently cripple them. Not in revenge but as a preventative measure.
25 posted on 04/19/2006 6:36:42 PM PDT by TalBlack
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To: OldArmy52
Liberalism is social AIDS. Once entrenched, it removes a country's ability to resist more serious social diseases such as despotism.

That was one of the frustrating flaws of V for Vendetta, a flick with some energy but horribly muddled ideology. It portrayed the "sheeple" phenomenon while skipping completely what would have been its logical cause, which is exactly what Dalyrmple describes in this piece. On the other hand, while true that the left-wing social disease will lead to disaster, one possible manifestation of it could be the eventual rise of a Hitler type. I would forgive the movie if it predicted that history, but the film's notion is that modern-day conservatism leads to the portrayed dystopia.

26 posted on 04/19/2006 6:37:03 PM PDT by NutCrackerBoy
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To: Uncledave
One consequence of the liberal intelligentsia’s long march through the institutions is the acceptance of the category of Thoughtcrime.

That pathetic apologia from the UCSD student regarding speech codes yesterday came to mind reading this. It is simply difficult to credit that normal, intelligent people are capable of repeating such palpable nonsense so solemnly and expect other people to accede to the mutual illusion. We aren't immune from this by any means.

27 posted on 04/19/2006 6:41:47 PM PDT by Billthedrill
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To: Uncledave
Yes, brilliant indeed, and Theodore Dalrymple has written an equally perceptive analysis about the situation that surrounds him in France. Sadly, virtually the same incidents he describes in Britain can and do happen in the USA in certain jurisdictions. The lesson in Tom Wolfe's "Bonfire of the Vanities" is to separate yourself from such jurisdictions.
28 posted on 04/19/2006 6:48:49 PM PDT by Malesherbes
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To: Uncledave

Thanks. Writing this the week of the Duke Lax fantasy just hits the nail on the head.


29 posted on 04/19/2006 6:50:52 PM PDT by Mr. Rational
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To: Tribune7
or the Pubs don't grow some cojones it will

The Pubs would need a scanning electron microscope to find their cojones.

30 posted on 04/19/2006 7:00:43 PM PDT by pierrem15
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To: pierrem15

I fear your right.


31 posted on 04/19/2006 7:07:09 PM PDT by Tribune7
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To: Uncledave
Mene, mene, tekel upharsin
32 posted on 04/19/2006 7:19:01 PM PDT by Snickersnee (Where are we going? And what's with this handbasket?)
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To: OldPossum
Your comments hit home. I was a student in London in 1990, during the final days of Thatcher. It was a wonderful time, one of those personal "golden eras".

I visited the UK several times throughout the later 90s, and spent my final visit in July of 2001. Each time, I watched the city deteriorate until it was unrecognizable. The 'spirit' that was so tangible in '90 had disappeared.

My husband and I will celebrate our fifth anniversary this year (good gravy!) and since we didn't have a honeymoon, we were thinking about different cities to go to. London was suggested, and nostalgia made me consider it--but the place is so different. Just a shell of what it was.

33 posted on 04/19/2006 7:20:10 PM PDT by RepoGirl ("That boy just ain't right..." Hank Hill)
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To: Uncledave
It is more concerned that young men should not smoke cigarettes in prison or make silly jokes to policemen than that they should not attack and permanently maim their elders and betters.

And more concerned with taking firearms away from law-abiding citizens than with keeping criminals armed with rocks, sticks, and fists from brutalizing those law-abiding citizens.

But the root of this is that Britain has a socialist mindset -- Labour advances socialism and the Tories preserve it until Labour takes power again -- and socialism is fundamentally criminal at its root, being based on the confiscation (pronounced, "theft") of lawfully-earned property for the benefit of the idle. Hence a socialist state is almost guaranteed to take the side of criminals against the side of the law-abiding and productive. The socialists know who their friends are.

34 posted on 04/19/2006 8:46:56 PM PDT by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: Uncledave
“You were looking for trouble and prepared to use any excuse to visit violence on anyone you came by. It is the callousness of this that is so chilling. . . . You do not seem to care that others have been blighted by your gratuitous violence.”

Pretty fancy words the judge was using, showing off his public-school education no doubt. For all the uneducated yobbo understood of his lecture, he might as well have been speaking in Welsh.

This kind of thug only understands the language of hot lead and hard wood. Bringing back the rope is not sufficient; it's time to start hanging them in chains at crossroads, for the ravens to peck out their eyes.

-ccm

35 posted on 04/19/2006 10:20:02 PM PDT by ccmay (Too much Law; not enough Order)
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To: Uncledave

This is a phenomenal quote:

"...one does not feel the defects of a foreign country in quite the same lacerating way as the defects of one’s native land; they are more an object of amused, detached interest than of personal despair."


36 posted on 04/19/2006 10:27:32 PM PDT by LibertarianInExile ('Is' and 'amnesty' both have clear, plain meanings. Are Billy Jeff and the President related?)
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To: Uncledave
"Simply brilliant"

...except that the author avoided writing about the main cause of the problem, even in such a wordy piece. He did manage to misrepresent his case by mentioning the family ties of only one young man, though.
37 posted on 04/19/2006 10:37:45 PM PDT by familyop (Essayons)
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To: Uncledave

thanks for posting that. the man is a great writer.


38 posted on 04/19/2006 11:49:52 PM PDT by traviskicks (http://www.neoperspectives.com/israel_palestine_conflict.htm)
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To: RepoGirl

IMHO Britain day by day is turning more European (in the European Union sense). I have noticed in recent years angry readers who are furious with American retorts of European (I shall stress not necessarily British) anti-Americanism, and angry detractors of American patriotic articles on dates such as July 4 each year, have been Britons. These Britons are quite busy defending their European neighbours and joining them to bash their American brothers.

It is as if Thatcher's times as Prime Minister is ancient history now, and Britons have abandoned what she stood for in droves.

"The [English] Channel is wider than the Atlantic" is now firmly a thing of the past.


39 posted on 04/20/2006 1:47:05 AM PDT by NZerFromHK (Leftism is like honey mixed with arsenic: initially it tastes good, but that will end up killing you)
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To: Campion

I wouldn't say it is socialism, but rather, a mindset that believes fundamentally power flows from those who are in charge. Sure, there are concepts of liberty, constraints of the political leaders' power, but deep down the source of power is granted to people from the Crown, and it is deemed common sense over in Britain to believe that to maintain order in society, that government should do something "deemed sensible" in the way of combating disorder.

Because of this belief, explaining the US's Second Amendment might as well be talking to them in Malay.


40 posted on 04/20/2006 1:52:37 AM PDT by NZerFromHK (Leftism is like honey mixed with arsenic: initially it tastes good, but that will end up killing you)
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To: Uncledave
This is a problem everywhere not just in Britain.

And the sad fact is we have always had this sort of violence even when I was growing up in avery tough part of the East End.

As a young lad in the early 70s I would not go into bars where I was not known.

The what you looking at has always been used to start a punch up, with also popular you looking at my bird, and you just made me spill my pint

And it was the same in my Dads day as well.

There are parts of Britain that have always been very violent, going right back through time.

That said we need to sort out a better sentencing structure.

The problem is we tend to use jail to much, which means we end up with overcrowded jails, and so have to limit the time spent.

We need to sort out a proper sentencing strategy and maybe look at what constitutes a crime as well.

I know one crime that I would legalise as it uses up more than its fair share of police, court and prison resources.

Also I sometimes work with youngsters and on the whole they are law abiding.

Its just the bad ones, the mindless thugs and criminals who get publicity.

41 posted on 04/20/2006 4:25:30 AM PDT by tonycavanagh (We got plenty of doomsayers where are the truth sayers)
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To: RepoGirl
re :Your comments hit home. I was a student in London in 1990, during the final days of Thatcher. It was a wonderful time, one of those personal "golden eras".

I have to correct you on this, it was a very violent time as well depending on where you visit. Do you forget the race riots in Brixton, the Notting Hill riots, the Miners strikes and riots

And as a native of London large parts of the city has been gentrified, the whole of the Thames Area.

And we still have the same spirit as yester year.

Most street crime now days is youngsters on youngsters.

By the what where were you a student, I had just left the Regular Army then, and was attending London University QMW

42 posted on 04/20/2006 4:30:50 AM PDT by tonycavanagh (We got plenty of doomsayers where are the truth sayers)
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To: RepoGirl
re :Your comments hit home. I was a student in London in 1990, during the final days of Thatcher. It was a wonderful time, one of those personal "golden eras".

I have to correct you on this, it was a very violent time as well depending on where you visit. Do you forget the race riots in Brixton, the Notting Hill riots, the Miners strikes and riots

And as a native of London large parts of the city has been gentrified, the whole of the Thames Area.

And we still have the same spirit as yester year.

Most street crime now days is youngsters on youngsters.

By the what where were you a student, I had just left the Regular Army then, and was attending London University QMW

43 posted on 04/20/2006 4:30:53 AM PDT by tonycavanagh (We got plenty of doomsayers where are the truth sayers)
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To: Campion
re :But the root of this is that Britain has a socialist mindset

LOL and the root cause of crime in other countries is:

44 posted on 04/20/2006 4:32:29 AM PDT by tonycavanagh (We got plenty of doomsayers where are the truth sayers)
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To: Uncledave

He misses a point. If these incidents were considered "normal", and not out of order, they would not have been in the newspapers which he read.

Plenty of normal life goes on in England. I live on the South Coast, and while we have our share of young and stupid teenagers, this is a good place to be and to live.

Every country has its problems, but there are virtues too. What is certain is that every time the world has written Britain off, that judgement has been proven incorrect.

Regards, Ivan


45 posted on 04/20/2006 4:34:27 AM PDT by MadIvan (I aim to misbehave.)
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To: MadIvan

I'm glad you pointed that out. We certainly have our share of incidents of liberal madness in the U.S. (most of them are chronicled and exposed here on FR), yet I'm not even close to pronouncing this country irretrievably lost.


46 posted on 04/20/2006 4:42:48 AM PDT by rightwingintelligentsia
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To: tonycavanagh
This is a problem everywhere not just in Britain.

There is a difference between expecting a fight in a bar in a tough neighborhood and expecting a fight -- to the death, mind you -- while you are fixing your car in your driveway.

Concerning everywhere, the circumstances described in the article remind me a bit of my suburban neighborhood in the '70s when the biker gangs where in their heyday.

Things have gotten much better.

47 posted on 04/20/2006 5:02:32 AM PDT by Tribune7
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To: Uncledave

Good read! Makes you wonder about the ones who claim that we are becoming better and better all the time...why in no time, we will all be gods!


48 posted on 04/20/2006 5:20:48 AM PDT by Shery (S. H. in APOland)
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To: Tribune7
re :There is a difference between expecting a fight in a bar in a tough neighborhood and expecting a fight -- to the death, mind you -- while you are fixing your car in your driveway.

I agree, problem was the bloke was fixing his car in a tough neighborhood.

Most of this sort of crime happens in the same neighborhoods, and its usually the same kids, and there kids, in fact usually the same family.

In my old area there were one or two families that were the most aggressive, petty criminals the works, and today their grandkids and in some cases great grandkids are just as bad.

The problem is that this sort of crime only gets reported when the victim is seen as one of the betters, but it is mostly ignored like your street gang violence in your cities when its just gang on gang, or in our case poor working class beating up on poor working class.

So most people while they may tut tut over there newspapers don't care because it wont reach them, although it does reach there children when they are mugged for there mobiles, ipods psps and trainers.

49 posted on 04/20/2006 6:08:06 AM PDT by tonycavanagh (We got plenty of doomsayers where are the truth sayers)
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To: RepoGirl

I, too, was a student in London during 1990. During the summer, which was a World Cup year. I've been back several times since, most recently in 2005. I couldn't agree more that it's a shell of it's former self. I don't want to return.


50 posted on 04/20/2006 6:30:33 AM PDT by Uncledave
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