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Itís This Bad [Outsanding from Dalrymple on England's descent into liberal hell]
City Journal ^ | 4/18/2006 | Theodore Dalrymple

Posted on 04/19/2006 5:32:55 PM PDT by Uncledave

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To: tonycavanagh
but it is mostly ignored like your street gang violence in your cities when its just gang on gang,

Well, that is true. Hopefully, the article is an exaggeration or written with the intent to keep things from getting worse. I like the English.

51 posted on 04/20/2006 6:32:15 AM PDT by Tribune7
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To: Uncledave

Simply wonderful. Every word a gem.


52 posted on 04/20/2006 6:38:42 AM PDT by hershey
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To: alwaysconservative

Exactly!


53 posted on 04/20/2006 6:41:10 AM PDT by hershey
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To: tonycavanagh
LOL and the root cause of crime in other countries is

Original sin. But what I'm talking about is not "crime," but the British insistence that for a law-abiding citizen to defend himself against crime is somehow unacceptable.

The farmer who was burglarized repeatedly and then prosecuted for shooting the burglars ... what is his name again, Tony Martin? Talk to him about it.

54 posted on 04/20/2006 6:41:16 AM PDT by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: NZerFromHK
it is deemed common sense over in Britain to believe that to maintain order in society, that government should do something "deemed sensible" in the way of combating disorder.

Because of this belief, explaining the US's Second Amendment might as well be talking to them in Malay.

I guess their definition of what is "deemed sensible" and mine must not have much commonality. To me, "doing something sensible in the way of combating disorder" would involve shall-issue concealed carry.

Actually it would probably involve a serviceable assault rifle (and a supply of ammunition) in the home of every law-abiding, stable citizen, too. That's what the Swiss do; it seems to work.

55 posted on 04/20/2006 6:45:36 AM PDT by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: Malesherbes

Some months ago, someone posted TD's analysis about France's situation vis a vis the Muslim invasion/eventual takeover. Sobering reading, indeed.


56 posted on 04/20/2006 6:46:27 AM PDT by hershey
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To: ccmay

Wow. Way to go!


57 posted on 04/20/2006 6:47:56 AM PDT by hershey
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To: Uncledave
re :I couldn't agree more that it's a shell of it's former self. I don't want to return.

As a Londoner i have to say that is complete and utter bollox, London is a lot smarter and richer now, The whole of the Thames are for a start.

58 posted on 04/20/2006 6:52:22 AM PDT by tonycavanagh (We got plenty of doomsayers where are the truth sayers)
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To: Uncledave
Coming to a country near you.

Remember, the neo-comms want the US to be "more like Europe."
59 posted on 04/20/2006 6:54:49 AM PDT by Antoninus (I don't vote for liberals regardless of their party affiliation.)
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To: Campion
re :Original sin. But what I'm talking about is not "crime," but the British insistence that for a law-abiding citizen to defend himself against crime is somehow unacceptable.

No that is wrong, you are entitled to defend your self.

Tony Martin is always brought up and is always proved to be a bad example.

When Tony Martin shot those two intruders, they were running away from his house. Both were shot in the back.

Therefore it was deemed not self defense but revenge.

If he had shot them, in his house and claimed that they had surprised him, he would probably of got away with it.

Self defense is if you believe you or someone else is under attack.

I belted a bloke who was running at me with a bottle in the face with a metal dustbin lid, he went down nothing happened to me.

But if I then decided to give him a further lesson by battering him when he was on the floor I would of been done.

60 posted on 04/20/2006 6:57:15 AM PDT by tonycavanagh (We got plenty of doomsayers where are the truth sayers)
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To: NZerFromHK
LOL what a surprise you on a Britain is going to hell on ahand cart thread.

Your two favorite roles Brit bashing and American ass kissing

61 posted on 04/20/2006 7:00:15 AM PDT by tonycavanagh (We got plenty of doomsayers where are the truth sayers)
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To: Uncledave

You can blame a lot of the problems in England (and elsewhere across the pond) on hip-hop culture. I was deeply depressed last time in London over how much it has filtered into their youth society.

Gangsta machoism, glorification of stupidity, foul-mouthed nihilism, abuse and degradation of women... all the lovely baggage that comes along with it. A cancer, plain and simple.


62 posted on 04/20/2006 7:01:10 AM PDT by Jhensy
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To: tonycavanagh

By saying "shell" I'm certainly hyperbolizing. But I have to say the city felt quite different to me in ways I didn't like. Friends of mine who live there tell me the same thing - many wanting to leave. They talk to me of immigration woes, increased drug use (in public view, that is), more aggressive youth, apathy of various public services, political correctness gone awry (eg Livingston's lily-livered comments after the subway bombing)

I do have a fond place in my heart for the Brits and England. Marvelous people and country. I've even kept up my overseas Viz subscription!


63 posted on 04/20/2006 7:02:36 AM PDT by Uncledave
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To: RepoGirl
Hi Repo, if you and your Husband are still looking for a great place to visit I highly recommend Prague. My wife and I went last year and had a really great time.
64 posted on 04/20/2006 7:06:25 AM PDT by The Toll
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To: Uncledave
re :They talk to me of immigration woes, increased drug use (in public view, that is), more aggressive youth, apathy of various public services, political correctness gone awry (eg Livingston's lily-livered comments after the subway bombing) .

The problem is that these are subjects that are discussed more in the papers but are they worse than before.

Every one has a political correctness story that has happened to someone else not them.

More aggressive youth, I don't think they are any more aggressive than when I was there age.

Rowdy and noisy I agree but so were we.

And most youth are still polite, its easy to paint them all with the same brush.

There are more immigrants that I will agree. My Mums local pub is full of Poles and Russians.

As for Ken Livingstone he has always been mealy mouthed, he was a IRA supporter in the 70s/80s when we were fighting them.

We have a problem with drugs, although I don't think its a problem since those who went to raves and dropped pills were not so violent, in fact drug taking is dropping and drinking is on the up.

Thats the new problem binge drinking and the violence that goes with it.

As an aside when I was serving in West Germany, I saw the green book American soldiers were issued with, and they were warned about the drunken aggressive and violent nature of the British sqaddy and this was in the early 80s.

Where did you go unie.

65 posted on 04/20/2006 7:13:06 AM PDT by tonycavanagh (We got plenty of doomsayers where are the truth sayers)
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To: The Toll; RepoGirl
re :Hi Repo, if you and your Husband are still looking for a great place to visit I highly recommend Prague. My wife and I went last year and had a really great time.

LOL although its becoming a favorite place for young aggressive British male binge drinkers.

66 posted on 04/20/2006 7:14:25 AM PDT by tonycavanagh (We got plenty of doomsayers where are the truth sayers)
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To: Uncledave
I agree that this is a fine article, brilliant in it's point and writing.

What I did not see was any reference to morals and where morals come from. Brace yourselves....God.

How do expect anyone to know squat about principal, morality, civilized conduct or anything resembling those qualities when there is a focus on humanism? From their parents? How were they raised?

It would appear that most of Britain turned their backs on religion, and that the Church of England, once a rock, has dissolved into a pile of PC silliness.

It's sad, I have been to England many times, though not lately. And on an even more sad note, we are seeing the same thing here, and it will get worse. The problem is moral bankruptcy. It will not be solved by courts, or police or politicians.
67 posted on 04/20/2006 7:28:56 AM PDT by alarm rider (Irritating leftists as often as is humanly possible....)
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To: tonycavanagh
As a Londoner i have to say that is complete and utter bollox, London is a lot smarter and richer now, The whole of the Thames are for a start.

I have to agree. What has happened to the Docks is nothing short of amazing.

You can't deny, however, that crime is on the increase. And would be more so, if the statistics weren't crook. I have a friend who used to be a copper out in Buckinghamshire, and according to thim they are routinely cooking the books to make their statistics more palatable to the public.

-ccm

68 posted on 04/20/2006 7:48:45 AM PDT by ccmay (Too much Law; not enough Order)
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To: tonycavanagh

I went to school there through Boston Univ which had (probably is still there) a small outpost they ran out of a brownstone in Kensington, near the Glouster St stop.

Following classes, students had an internship. I had mine with IBM at their South Bank office. The group I worked with sold into the petrochem industry and many of their clients were US energy firms: esso, texaco, etc. The IBM lads were invited to participate in their clients' softball league (it's like baseball) and as the only American on the team most of my interneship was spent teaching them how to play.

I remember telling people all day, "No, running after you hit the ball is NOT optional!" or "No, you can't bounce the ball towards the batter!" or "Take of those silly Jumpers!".


69 posted on 04/20/2006 7:54:24 AM PDT by Uncledave
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To: tonycavanagh
If he had shot them, in his house and claimed that they had surprised him, he would probably of got away with it.

"Probably" is the word I have trouble with.

If you don't have the right to defend yourself in your own house against an intruder, your other rights aren't worth very much.

Where I live, the law is that you have the right to use deadly force to defend yourself or an innocent victim against an attacker who intends death or great bodily harm. The law further presumes that an intruder inside your house intends death or great bodily harm, no matter what he does.

70 posted on 04/20/2006 7:55:49 AM PDT by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: tonycavanagh

Ha Ha, I suppose that's true, I forgot about that part. There were quite a few, however they stayed around the main pub crawl at night and were very pleasant around sunset when they were looking for breakfast.


71 posted on 04/20/2006 8:09:06 AM PDT by The Toll
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To: Campion
I said probably as I am not a lawyer, but this will explain the law in Britain http://cps.gov.uk/legal/section5/chapter_d.html.

A person may use such force as is reasonable in the circumstances for the purposes of:

self-defence; or

defence of another; or

defence of property; or

prevention of crime; or

lawful arrest.

In assessing the reasonableness of the force used, prosecutors should ask two questions:

was the use of force justified in the circumstances, i.e. was there a need for any force at all? and

was the force used excessive in the circumstances? .

Hope the link helps

72 posted on 04/20/2006 8:31:55 AM PDT by tonycavanagh (We got plenty of doomsayers where are the truth sayers)
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To: Uncledave; albertp; Allosaurs_r_us; Abram; Americanwolfsbrother; AlexandriaDuke; Americanwolf; ...
A good article on twisted government values and incentives.





Libertarian ping! To be added or removed from my ping list freepmail me or post a message here.
73 posted on 04/20/2006 8:32:11 AM PDT by traviskicks (http://www.neoperspectives.com/israel_palestine_conflict.htm)
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To: Uncledave
re ;Take of those silly Jumpers!".

LOL wearing or wrapped round the shoulders preppy style.

As an aside I think Viz has gone down hill a bit, but my faveirite is still Modern parents, Student Grant, Jack Silver Spoilt bstard and Art Critics

74 posted on 04/20/2006 8:34:18 AM PDT by tonycavanagh (We got plenty of doomsayers where are the truth sayers)
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To: tonycavanagh

Viz does put a noticeable effort in trying to bring in new characters. I suppose there's only so many ways Biffa can get his "head kicked reet in" or San and Tray can stuff their faces and orifices.

I like the new guy who draws Harry Bestial and Drunken Bakers. It's amusingly cynical, dry, abstract, creepy.

Modern Parents and Student "Gwant" indeed take great stabs at the culture. I'd add Millie Tant to that list.


75 posted on 04/20/2006 8:49:43 AM PDT by Uncledave
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To: tonycavanagh

Sorry.
If you have been robbed repeatedly, then shooting the @$$holes is just a little common-sense prevention. Since the law will do nothing about them, Martin would be at their mercy when they decided to return. Martin was engaged in self-defense against potentially violent invaders who repeated invaded his home.
The fact they fearlessly invaded his home while he was there is, by itself, proof that he was justified.


76 posted on 04/20/2006 8:52:11 AM PDT by Little Ray (I'm a reactionary, hirsute, gun-owning, knuckle dragging, Christian Neanderthal and proud of it!)
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To: tonycavanagh
Hi Tony, thanks for your excellent post.

I was there from February to June of 1990. I remember a prison riot, and then I had friends who got accidentally caught up in the Poll Tax riots in Piccadilly (May '90?). When did the miners strikes, race riots and Notting Hill riots take place?

You're very correct, no time is ever perfect, and I admit even then, there were some rough patches. Our dorms were right in Bloomsbury, on Gower Street, and even in such a ritzy neighborhood, there were some nasty elements. The IRA was very active at that time--so we were always on the lookout for suspicious packages in pubs, on the tube, etc. In fact, a year later, my friend was just a street over when a bomb took out a couple of store fronts. When I call it a golden age, I admit that a lot of my perception of London is colored with that rosey glow of youth.

Although, being a kid raised in a scruffy little Florida beach town, I was struck at how incredibly polite people were in the UK. I'd spent considerable time before going to London in NYC and Philly, so when I came to the UK--I was flabbergasted at how formal (which I liked) and polite so many Britons were, from bricklayers to Barristers. Now, it may have been because, at the time (sigh...) I was a cute twenty-something coed, but I always found complete strangers to be helpful and friendly.

And going out into the country, to the small towns, was such an incredible treat. I can't remember what town we'd gone to--but I spent several hours talking about Tobey jugs (yeah, I know they're goofy...) with a pub owner. I found England to be incredibly welcoming.

From the mid-90s onward, I noticed the little niceties had started eroding. I used to get a giggle out of hearing people say, "Sorry..." when they'd invade your personal space on the Tube (again, I was used to much more brusque behavior). But, as the decade progressed, I'd encounter ruder and ruder behavior on my trips to the city. And, yes, while we have them in the states, the white kids pretending to be hard core 'gangsta rap' criminals with their gold chains and track suits just depressed me when I encountered them in the UK.

Although, I was really impressed with how they'd fixed up the areas south of the Thames (like around the museum of Science and Industry, the now-closed MOMI, etc.) and up around Islington.

I hope I am wrong, and that London still has that 'spark'. It holds such a special place in my heart. Now... if you tell me where I can find a decent pint of Websters Bitters, I'll be forever greatful.

77 posted on 04/20/2006 1:13:41 PM PDT by RepoGirl ("That boy just ain't right..." Hank Hill)
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To: The Toll

We're actually really interested in eastern europe these days. I've heard great things about Prague, but Poland as well.


78 posted on 04/20/2006 1:16:00 PM PDT by RepoGirl ("That boy just ain't right..." Hank Hill)
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To: Little Ray
re :If you have been robbed repeatedly, then shooting the @$$holes is just a little common-sense prevention.

LOL you know and I know that wont wash in a court of law in America never mind Britain, it would be nice if it could, taking them out before or after they commited a crime, but then we would not need the police and courts, and while you (maybe) and I would not abuse the system, there are many who would.

The problem is the law is the law and while criminals don't mind breaking the law that is what makes them criminals.

What we need is a tougher sentencing structure.

79 posted on 04/23/2006 11:44:07 AM PDT by tonycavanagh (We got plenty of doomsayers where are the truth sayers)
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To: RepoGirl
LOL I agree, about the more aggressive behavior on the tube as a tube traveler, may have something to do with more sardines, I mean commuters jammed into the tubes, with stoppages in between tunnels.

(Blush) I admit I get more aggressive on the journey to work, just shattered on the way home.

Lager drinker myself, but will ask around.

Cheers Tony

80 posted on 04/23/2006 11:47:13 AM PDT by tonycavanagh (We got plenty of doomsayers where are the truth sayers)
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To: MadIvan

You are missing something. Yeah, maybe the country should not be written off. Having never been there I can't judge either way. But one thing is clear from the articles that he pointed out. The fact that they were printed does NOT mean those things are not common. If is very clear they youths beating up bystanders is common and these cases were only reported because of the severity of the injury that resulted. How many other cases did the victim only get some bruises or a broken bone and recovered within weeks. Such stories would not get reported.


81 posted on 04/25/2006 2:38:59 PM PDT by TalonDJ
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To: listenhillary

Probably


82 posted on 04/25/2006 2:54:01 PM PDT by Chickensoup (The water in the pot is getting warmer, froggies.The water in the pot is getting warmer, froggies.)
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To: TalonDJ
If is very clear they youths beating up bystanders is common and these cases were only reported because of the severity of the injury that resulted. How many other cases did the victim only get some bruises or a broken bone and recovered within weeks. Such stories would not get reported.

Some of the stories he talks about are merely outrageous rather than injurous (e.g., the "gay" horse). Therefore your theory is out the window on the first go. The fact that we are supposed to be outraged by these stories indicates how uncommon they are, and how they grate on our sense of justice. If our sense of justice was not provoked by these stories, then I'd be packing my bags for Australia. But they do, and so I'm not.

Ivan

83 posted on 04/25/2006 2:59:08 PM PDT by MadIvan (I aim to misbehave.)
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To: Billthedrill

I thought about this yesterday when I had to go to a mall. I generally rarely interact with the masses here (just south of SF), but I have noticed that they are just becoming more and more ignorant. And I don't just mean their complete lack of formal education, but also the values that they take seriously.

If I see one more middle-class white or Asian kid with his pants around his knees and a baseball cap on sideways, I'm gonna go postal.

One kid I who walked past me yesterday had on the full gangsta attire - cami shirt, cami-jacket, the requisite bling, the cami SF Giants hat on sideways and his cami pants around his thighs. I think I must have been smirking because he turned around to look at me - obviously trying to decide if he wanted to confront me for "dissin'" him. He wisely chose not to, but you could tell he was thinking it.

From Homer Simpson to SpongeBob to the latest rap lyrics, ignorance is celebrated in this country. And if you're going to listen to SpongeBob, why wouldn't you listen George Clooney?

But unfortunately, ignorance isn't the opposite of reason, violence is. And the violence which comes from ignorance is alive and well and growing here in the US.


84 posted on 04/25/2006 3:12:53 PM PDT by Philistone (Turning lead into gold...)
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To: RKV

RE post #2, first thing I thought of.


85 posted on 04/25/2006 4:00:38 PM PDT by Former Proud Canadian (How do I change my screen name after Harper's election?)
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To: Philistone

"But unfortunately, ignorance isn't the opposite of reason, violence is."

Nice thought for the day, thanks.


86 posted on 04/27/2006 1:25:35 AM PDT by Apogee
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