Jews in Poland Speak of Shoah Remembrance as a Curse.

The Jewish Journal ^ | 2006-04-21 | Jane Ulman

[lizol]

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[Carlos Martillo II]

"under the sway of the then-anti-Semitic Catholic church"

What a hateful, evil comment.

[rmlew]

Ping!

[rmlew]

The Roman Catholic Church was not anti-Semitic in 1939. There were far more anti-Jewish or anti-Judaic teaching before Vatican I and II.
Of course there were some rather nast Anti-Semites in the church then, just as today there is a Polish Catholic radio station, whose anti-Semitic rants were recently condemned by the Vatican.

The real problem is that certain brands of Polish Nationalism excluded all ethnic minorities. The middle class and wealthy Jews generally gained their status under the Prussian and Austrian Empires and many were not seen as loyal. They were assimilated and spoke Polish, although generally as a second or third language.
Poorer Jews, especially those is ghettos, spoke little Polish and were quite insular.

In 1939, Poland was a relatively large multi-ethnic state. I believe that there were roughly 30 million citizens, of which only 20 million were ethnic Poles.

[SJackson]

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[ketelone]

eh, eh, eh?

It isnt Polands fault she was invaded by a regime which had determined that Jews were to be exterminated from the face of the Earth.

If I were Polish, I would feel no shame about something that I had been powerless to prevent, however much I may have wanted to.

Sadness, yes. Shame? No.

And whats the good of painting the RC church as rabidly anti-jewish? AFAIK, may Jews were saved by action of the pope at the time, through Vatican issuance of travel documents to them.

[lizol]

Wartime Rescue of Jews by the Polish Catholic Clergy. The Testimony of Survivors.

A pretty long (but interesting) read (in pdf).

[Grzegorz 246]

"just as today there is a Polish Catholic radio station, whose anti-Semitic rants were recently condemned by the Vatican."

First of all Church can't do much about that radio, because It is not owned by the church, besides although definitely not pro-semitic, anti-semitism is not any of their main issues. There are idiots in every religion. Polish nuns in Jerusalem are attacked by Jewish fanatics almost every day.

"Poorer Jews, especially those is ghettos, spoke little Polish and were quite insular."

And whose fault was that ?

[ketelone]

That really was a very interesting read! Thanks for posting.

[AnalogReigns]

It's an opinion, which can be demonstrated by evidence--and which has been admitted to even by John Paul II. Many scholars of the period agree--that many of the leaders of the Roman Catholic Church in 1939 were anti-Semitic. That doesn't mean they supported the Nazis, nor does it deny that many Catholics helped save Jews from the Holocaust. (unfortunately many also did the opposite)

Scholarly oppinions, which can be backed up by evidence, AND have been admitted by the Pope himself (and I belive Pope John Paul II was one of the greatest popes of all history) are not "hateful and evil" unless you want to accuse the blessed John Paul II of that...

[warsaw44]

say....can you think of anyone who might like to read that 200 page article?

[SaltyJoe]

"under the sway of the then-anti-Semitic Catholic church"

Yeah, I stopped reading when this came into view.

So, what is Jewish "identity" all about? I'm not Jewish, but I'd hate to think that my Catholic identity was only about suffering abuse from those who hate me. So, I can understand why there are some Jews who are put off by the Holocaust when it's used to indoctrinate "identity" more than warning.

I'm sure I'm wrong about it, but I wonder why The Chosen were scattered to the winds. Maybe, by living among gentiles, they'd remember their identity? I only say this, because sometimes I get annoyed by being around nothing but my own kin. Is this my "real" family? Please tell me I'm adopted!

I knew this Jewish guy who summed up a very simple thought, and I paraphrase it in the following: the spirit of this world has failed to kill Jews. There is a God, and He loves me.

Some may think of the "Promise Land" as a patch of water front soil in the heart of the Middle East. I think of it as prime real estate waiting for us in Heaven.

[rmlew]

I wrote:
"Poorer Jews, especially those is ghettos, spoke little Polish and were quite insular."

Grzegorz 246 responded
And whose fault was that ?

It was the fault of many people over many years. Many Jewish religious laws exist to keep us a nation apart. There is also history. At various points rulers kept power by playing ethnic groups off each other. There was a degree of anti-Jewish sentiment, which ensured that Jews were way of others. This was especially true in the Polish areas which had been part of the Russian Empire. We were only a generation removed from the pogroms.
However, at the end of the day, I lay the blame on the leaders of the various Jewish ghettos and communities, who kept power by ensuring that there was no assimilation. That way they were not threatened by revolt in the Ghetto and ensured taht they had useful votes for the parliament.
Frankly, I am somewhat appalled to see a continuation of this among certain Hasidic sects in New York.

[Ciexyz]

Most interesting.

[twinself]

However, at the end of the day, I lay the blame on the leaders of the various Jewish ghettos and communities, who kept power by ensuring that there was no assimilation.

I don't blame anybody except for these Jews directly, even though in theory living in almost utterly Yidish speaking environment they simply didn't have to develop language skills in Polish. Similarily there are Poles in Chicago who didn't even learn English after 20 years of living in the States and never visited neighbouring quarters. I mean who's to blame for their own ignorance and stupidity? Authorities?

[curiosity]

You know, I've seen this claimed many times:

"many Poles aided and abetted the Nazi,"

But I've never seen any evidence to back it up. Obviously, the number could not have been zero, but is there any evidence to justify saying "many?"

[curiosity]

It's an opinion, which can be demonstrated by evidence--and which has been admitted to even by John Paul II. Many scholars of the period agree--that many of the leaders of the Roman Catholic Church in 1939 were anti-Semitic.

The anti-semites within the Catholic leadership were a minority. The evidence simply does not justify giving the institution that label.

[lizol]

"Many Poles" is not so bad (sarcasm).

I've seen many times an expression "Poles in general", or "Poles as a rule".

[Neophyte]

in the early 1970s, while doing business in Russia as a real estate developer...

Pardon me?! A foreign - American! - real estate developer doing business in Russia in the early 70s? Gimme a break. The gal who wrote that takes too strong pills, or she is so ignorant that she'd believe anything...