Posted on 04/26/2006 6:26:21 AM PDT by Dark Skies
In the sentencing phase of Zacarias Moussaoui's trial winds up in an Alexandria, Va., courtroom, Moussaoui's lawyer, Gerald Zerkin, has attempted to defend the indefensible. Zerkin has explained how Moussaoui found himself in London studying at South Bank University, where he fell in with the wrong crowd — a radical Muslim crowd — and later conspired with al Qaeda in the 9/11 attacks.
It's not in any way exculpatory, of course, but it's true: What Moussaoui and a number of other al Qaeda operatives have in common is London, where many of them settled and fell under the influence of radical Islamism. Londonistan, the new book by British journalist Melanie Phillips, is a gripping account of how Islamism is taking control of Britain's culture and institutions.
Phillips is critical of Britain and its refusal to address the growing problem of Islamism, which she defines as the "politicized interpretation of the religion that aims to Islamize societies." Because of this, British identity is being "eviscerated." The London bombings should have been a wake-up call to British authorities. Why, she asks, was nothing done to stop these radicals after Britain's primary ally across the Atlantic was attacked by votaries of the very same ideology? How, in short, did London become Londonistan?
Owing to an influx of Muslim immigrants from Pakistan, India, and other South Asian countries in the 1970s, Islam became "Britain's second largest community of faith after Christianity." With one of the world's easiest systems of entry and asylum, Britain enabled those who wanted to disappear into it to do just that. And many of them are far from benign: According to Phillips, "up to 16,000 British Muslims either are actively engaged in or support terrorist activity, while up to 3,000 are estimated to have passed through al-Qaeda training camps . . . [and] almost a quarter of all terrorist suspects arrested in Britain since 9/11 have been asylum-seekers."
The fad of multiculturalism has further enhanced the radicals' cause. Any effort to defend the distinctness of British culture and values is thought to be an attack on minorities and multiculturalism. A "victim culture" has taken hold in Britain, whereby the minority refuses to be held accountable for its actions, claiming it is being subjugated by the majority. As a result, the majority is often the scapegoat. More often than not, the fear of Islamic terrorists is trumped by the fear of being labeled an "Islamophobe." Phillips concludes that Britain is choosing the "path of least resistance" when it should, instead, be defending itself.
This noxious mix of a radical ideology and the desire to appease rather than stop radicalization has had serious consequences. British officials failed properly to appreciate the threat the extremists posed to their country: Over a decade before the London bombings, Osama bin Laden set up shop in London, establishing an office to transmit messages from various al Qaeda cells, recruit military trainees, and distribute funds. Both Richard Reid, the infamous shoe-bomber, and Ahmed Omar Saeed Sheikh, the mastermind behind journalist Daniel Pearl's murder, hailed from Britain. Yet officials seemed completely unprepared for British al Qaeda members to come home and carry out terror attacks on their own soil.
Phillips suggests that British officials were more focused on Ireland-based terrorism than on the Middle Eastern variety: They were never given the green light to shift their attention to the rise of radical Islamism. Also, the very idea that an extremist ideology could once more take hold of a society was assumed invalid after the end of the Cold War. But one of the main reasons for Britain's inaction was the police force's embrace of the victim-culture mindset: The fear of offending a minority group and being called bigots led them to back away from some necessary confrontations.
Phillips exposes breakdowns on every level — within the British government, intelligence community, and police force — in the effort to defend Western values. A startling number of British Muslims support Islamist extremism. Londonistan gives warning that if Britain does not change its pusillanimous ways, not just its national security but its national identity will be swallowed up by the Islamists. Phillips remarks that "a nation can fight to defend itself only if it knows what it is fighting for, if it is secure in its own values"; Britain should listen to her urgent message.
— Erin Carden is assistant to the editor at National Review. She’s starting graduate work at the Paul H. Nitze School of Advanced International Studies in the fall.
1) Muslims comprise 3% of the total population is no where near the taking over and Izlamication of Britain.
Total population: 58.8 million
Muslim population: 1.6 million (2.8%)
2) Why did the authorities not act sooner:
Different priorities, until quite recently the majority of Britain’s anti terrorist intelligence gathering were aimed at North Ireland.
These included monitoring and fighting the
IRA
INLA
UVF
UFF.
And smaller cowboy units
MI5, Special Branch and other domestic intelligence agencies also had other priorities as well as the troubles in North Ireland.
This included surveillance of foreign hostile intelligence agencies
Domestic terrorists groups such as the Animal Rights Front, CND, and a lot of resources were also diverted to fight the renewed War on Drugs, requested by President Bush prior to Sept 11th. Other organised crime, organised crime has gone global.
With Sept 11th priorities changed, but it didn’t happen over night, why. Well Surveillance assets had to be recruited , a surveillance or undercover operative who worked in the Irish sphere would not pass muster in mosque.
Intelligence analysts a new orbat has to be drawn up, new faces identified, and retraining of what is and what is not important.
Know that the intelligence system is underway in both Britain and European countries arrests have been made and networks rolled up.
This is an ongoing war and both sides are learning evolving and adapting, but at the moment we have the upper hand.
"Around two fifths of Muslims (38 per cent) lived in London. After London, the regions with the next biggest share of the Muslim population were the West Midlands (14 per cent), the North West (13 per cent), and Yorkshire and the Humber (12 per cent). Even within these regions, Muslims were highly concentrated spatially. Muslims made up 8 per cent of London's population overall but 36 per cent of the Tower Hamlets and 24 per cent of the Newham populations."Source: http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=956
I know there is a popular theory on this site amongst some American freepers that us not practicing Christians will bend over and take whats coming to us.
LOL what total bollox.
After twenty years Military service I am not bending over for no man, and that goes for all my other non religious army mates.
I notice that you have not commented on the ongoing war I detailed.
Tony, most FReepers don't have a concept of 'the mob'.
I didn't respond to you because, for the most part, you seem to be a ranter and raver instead of someone who is calmly seeking to further an argument and uncover the truth. Given the limits of time, I would rather enter into discourse with someone from whom I can learn than waste time with folks who enjoy a p!ssing contest.
If I have you pegged wrong, please accept my apologies.
LOL I have been called a lot of things, where do I rant and rave, although in England a raver is someone who goes out clubbing.
You posted an article without comment, and I refuted it, you posted another reply to back up the first comment and I refuted that.
I live in London I am a Londoner Born and Bred, I think I may have first hand knowledge of this both from a London and Intelligence perspective.
Your apology is more than happily accepted.
I'm not sure I get your point. That graph demonstrates that most UK Hindus and Jews live in London, and that something over a third of UK Muslims do. This doesn't necessarily mean that there are a lot of them, just that most chose to live in London. If possible, please clarify.
However, as to the MO of islam, I think I would rather accept Daniel Pipes' and Steve Emerson's opinion as to how a very small population of muslims can exert its power. Case in point, the Danish cartoon affair essential killed free speech in the U.K. (and U.S. for that matter) as pertains to mohammed and the riots weren't even in the U.K. or U.S.
I certainly don't have a deep understand of what is going on in the intelligence services, but I do know dhimmitude when I see if.
Here's what Daniel Pipies says about Londonistan
"In contrast to the overwhelming majority of her British compatriots, who prefer to avert their eyes from the radical Islamic horror growing in their midst, Melanie Phillips has compiled a unique record that fearlessly, brilliantly and wittily exposes this problem. Londonistan builds on and goes beyond her prior work by showing the role of what she calls the British ‘spiral of decadence’ in permitting Islamist ideas and demands to ride roughshod over the UK’s traditional ways. Phillips rightly warns Americans of the acute dangers for them, too, from Britain’s being a source of Richard Reid–like terrorists to the ending of the two countries’ special relationship."—Daniel Pipes, director of the Middle East Forum and author of Militant Islam Reaches America
Here's what Steve Emerson says...
"Londonistan is one of the most compelling books you will ever read on the ascendancy of Islamic fundamentalism, violence and intimidation in the West. Melanie Phillips exposes the scandalous appeasement of militant Islam by British officials, the media, even the Church of England, capturing in extraordinary detail how British society and institutions have either ignored or actively fostered the growth of extremist groups on British soil. This book will both enlighten and enrage. Although its story is focused on the United Kingdom, it could be applied to any European capital or to the United States."Gee, whose opinion should I accept...yours or theirs?—Steven Emerson, executive director of the Investigative Project on Terrorism and author of American Jihad: The Terrorists Living Among Us
I love this type of article expalining how the UK is losing it's culture and being taken over by Islam!
Here's a few figures from the CIA Factbook:
The UK has a population of 60,609,153 versus 298,444,215 for the US. The proportion of those populations who are of white, christian ethnicity are 92.1% for the UK and 81.7% for the US. The US figure includes those of Latin ethnicity, so if you don't count latins as white christians and bear in mind 11% of Americans claim Spanish as their first language, you are down to the low 70's%. There are 1.8m muslims in the UK and more than 6m muslims in the US.
If the white christian majority on the UK ever drops from over 92% down to less than 75% as in the US, then we can start worrying!
As for MI5 not catching on to Islam quickly enough, well it's not really surprising as they were pretty busy dealing with the millions of dollars donated to the IRA from our US allies every year. . . .
True, but this small percent seems to be making a loud noise, pushing for changes to suit them, changes quite different from how the Brits live. And there seems to be (much like in places here) a number of leftie Brits who feel, I don't know, a kind of guilt or mislaid sympathy for this immigrant group, a need to kowtow to their wishes, the wishes of a small minority that openly seems to dislike them. Also, for some Christian Brits, like some Christians these days, are lukewarm in faith and see the strong faith and traditions of this group and feel drawn to it. What they're missing, and can easily regain, is spirituality and tradition in their own lives and churches, but they mistake the fervor (fanaticism) of the Muslims and think that's a better way, when really they just need to reconnect with their faith. So they are ready to cave to the wishes of the minority.
And that 3%? I haven't read the book - yet. I suspect the number is a bit larger with 'visitors' and 'guests' of these radicals who come to 'study' at their mosques.
Your upbeat optimism is rather refreshing: I want you at my side if the UK ever plunges into civil war.
That said: please be friendlier to our fellow FReepers. Dark Skies had some pertinent things to say (the large number of Muslims in London for instance): let's not get into a flamewar for no reason.
Tony: member since 2000; does not need lecturing from your or the other newbie.
A small minority of Muslims are very vocal, but then you can say that of all groups, in Britain and America and other countries.
Just because they are agitating for change does not mean they are going to get it.
Yes we have political correctness over here, but after scoring some ridiculous home goals which have been widely publicised in the Media the political correctness agenda is on the retreat.
There is a problem with Muslim extremists but they are being targeted and we have deported many, others have fled abroad .
We have had over 50 years on the job training in dealing with extremists and terrorists, and now that experience is being used against those who wish to cause trouble over here, or use Britain has a base of operations to further a cause abroad.
I'll be the judge of that, Sir.
You'll be the judge of what someone else needs? Okay.
This is good news on the espionage/policing front - but the Nick Griffin case - and the associated Goverment crackdown on "thoughtcrime" - makes me think its not all going our way.
I didn't think I was not being friendly I was commenting and refuting on thread and at least it has sparked some interest.
A civil war is definitely not on the cards at least in the not so far future.
Civil disturbances are another matter, but if we survived the North Ireland war, the Race riots in the 70s and 80s the miners strikes and other problems that befall all nations we will survive any civil disturbance.
Cheers Tony
Nick Griffin was found not guilty British law at work.
Damn, I seem to be making enemies very easily today.
Look: there are a lot of spirited, in-yer-face UK Freepers and I care about how they come across. We want to win this civilisational war, not drive wedges between two parts of the Anglosphere just to be "thread-king". /peacemaker>
Not to mention that
whole Reformation thing and
all that turned in to . . .
Cheers, amigo. I, among countless other Americans, are extremely proud of your warriors. God save the Queen, but not without some of the bravest dudes I've ever known. Semper Fi
I'm not intending to make enemies. Listen to TC when it comes to London. Listen and learn.
Sorry: I didn't make myself clear. Nick got off, as he should have, but our PC enemies have claimed the air-space. They are - in essence - telling us "say anything about Islam and we will prosecute you"
That said - they may well have shot themselves in the foot. BNP membership is through the roof if I understand correctly. Can anyone confirm this - I just heard it from a friend?
The guy is a real asset, agreed
As many people know, I am very pro-UK.
I am anti-islam and I believe that what is happening in the UK either is happening in the U.S. or will soon happen here.
I wish the same book would be written about dhimmitude in the U.S. Many people here are blind as to what is going on.
You may disagree with this article but there is much evidence to support the basic point of it...and very little to support yours.
Don't really have anything to add as such as I think you've made all the points I was going to make already, but FWIW I completely agree. Your point that it's only a small minority of Muslims who are extreme is definitely one that needs emphasising I feel- It's rather difficult to accept the assertion that all Muslims are evil (something which is often made on FR) when you have several Muslim friends, all of whom are lovely people who are no more likely to plot the downfall of their country then I am.
Of course there is a threat from Muslim extremists, but it's rather silly to inflate the problem to apocalyptic proportions and to do so runs the risk of giving the Islamists more credibility- they are a dangerous nuisance that in time will be dealt with much as we sorted out the Fenians and Anrarchists in the 19th century, or the IRA in more recent times.
The time to worry about the BNP is when they field a national candidate
I cant see the BNP getting anywhere near the NF in popularity during the late 70s and early 80s.
Also the BMP is splitting into many groups one factor is the Jewish question, Nick Griffin and some modernises want to drop the anti Jewish stance, at least in public , but this is causing problems for the more Nazi inspired members who can not drop there hatred of Jews just so that they can turn all there energies against the Muslims.
Dark skies, I don't think it is being taken as anti-UK, it's just that we as a country have a much larger majority of white christian ethnic population than the US does and has survived every threat to our small island nation for a millenia. America is finding that the anglo-saxon-celtish majority that made it great is sliding towards a minority very quickly and consequently, your danger is much greater than ours.
I am happy for you to post this evidence for us all to look at and dissect.
BTW I don't see this thread as anti UK. But a i tend to be weary of any we are all doomed books, the whole purpose of a book is to sell, so it tends to over dramatize situations.
I don't understand your graph at all. The percentages add up to way more than 100%. And if it's saying there are three times as many Sikhs in London as there are Christians or unbelievers, I don't find that credible.
Unfortunately, you are quite correct. As said, the U.S. is knee deep in this problem also. Our own President, when in California this week, again referred to islam as a great religion that has been hijacked. Quite the contrary, when islam is practiced in earnest it is misogynistic, bloody and primitive.
I know there are many fine muslims...I am not anti-muslim. But there is a quality in islam that encourages the radical sects to bully the moderates (takfir is the muslim word for it) thereby marginalizing the moderates and enabling the radicals to dominate.
There are many people who say that islam isn't evil and they are welcome to their opinions. However, there are many muslims, ex-muslims, and infidels who study it and find it to be virulent and a growing threat to civilization.
It shows the percentage of each religion in the U.K. that lives in London...not the religious makeup of London shown as percentages of the total pop.
LOL you mean in Italy its called "vilipendio," or "vilification," of "any religion admitted by the state." .
In fact the complaint who brought the charges Adel Smith a Muslim will also go on trail under the same law for attacking the Catholic church.
So to support your case that Britain is mortally threatened by Islam you cite a case in Italy (which hasn't reached a verdict yet and is unlikely to see Fallaci convicted as it would quite rightly be a serious breach of the free-speech sections of the ECHR) and France, where the police are just as unhappy to go into non-Muslim estates as they get just as bad a recption there?
I fail to see the relevance of these examples, they're happening in different national contexts with different legal systems, histories etc. In the case of Britain the 'powers that be' have been quite used to handling religiously-motivated terrorism embeded within the ethnic communities of London- they've been doing it for over a century and things seem to have largely settled down with that particular one. Other European countries might well bugger things up royally, but at present at least in Britain the threat is nothing like as severe as some people seem to like to think.
You can imagine what Winston Churchill would be saying right now about islam (and you can remember what he said in the 1930's). You might be weary (and be correct in that weariness) or you might be dead wrong about this threat.
Here is what Churchill said in 1899 (inThe River War)...
How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities — but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilisation of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilisation of ancient Rome.
I don't equate white with christian. If you read my post carefully, you will see I descibe the group as of 'white christian ethnicity' just as the CIA factbook does. That is to say, people whose ethnic background is that of both white and christian. I couldn't care what the proportion of these people is that attend church, I refer to their ethnicity.
The determined and aggressive minorities are far less of a threat to nations with an overwhelming majority of people of native ethnicity which is white christian ethnicity in the UK. It is countries where this once over-wheming majority is fast disappearing that are at most risk from these minorities, such as the US.
As for Europe, I care not a fig, sir! The good lord gave us a moat between this fair isle and the denizens of euroness and it has served us well for many a century - you should try digging one between yourselves and your southern neighbour! :)
Just because Churchill said something doesn't neccesarily mean that he was right; from a speech he made in Dundee, 1908;
"I am on the side of those who think that a greater collective sentiment should be introduced into the State and the municipalities. I should like to see the State undertaking new functions"
Later on, he remarked that "Our whole nation must be... socialised if you like the word."
Just thought I'd make the point...
I agree, I have done business with many British muslims and been welcome in their homes. They are not evil any more than all Irish are evil because of the IRA, but their religion is a common brotherhood and when radical islam calls them to defend their faith, they find their duty to their religion and country at odds.
As an Englishman, my inclination is to defend the right of any man to practice his religion in England, but I regularly regret that our muslim communities do not do more to root out the radical members who do the average British muslim such dis-service.
Churchill also said:
'You can always count on Americans to do the right thing - after they've tried everything else.'
;-)
I do, right here on FR daily (or least whenever I find something good)...and you are always welcome to dissect each and every article I post.
IMO, if it weren't for Churchill raising the alarm about Hitler, we would all be wearing swastikas!
Of course you are correct...but when he is right, he is right. And, he was right about Hitler and he is right about islam IMO.
"But one of the main reasons for Britain's inaction was the police force's embrace of the victim-culture mindset: "
If that's true why do they keep sending people who defend themselves against thugs to jail and letting the perps off with a warning?
British pundit: "Nothing to see here, everyone move along please!"
Ping!
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