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Defending science education against intelligent design: a call to action
American Society for Clinical Investigation ^ | 01 May 2006 | Alan D. Attie, Elliot Sober, Ronald L. Numbers, etc.

Posted on 05/03/2006 8:23:06 AM PDT by PatrickHenry

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To: CarolinaGuitarman
Actually, the 5% figure corresponds to the percentage of scientists in all fields who reject evolution. Very interesting...

Among biologists it's about 1/3 of 1%. I can post my Project Steve analysis again if necessary.

151 posted on 05/03/2006 11:24:54 AM PDT by PatrickHenry (Unresponsive to trolls, lunatics, fanatics, retards, scolds, & incurable ignoramuses.)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
>>The reason other evolutionists are opposed to this particular form of Theistic evolution is that in it G-d slips out of the world of human philosophical speculation into the world of fact, and most even "Theistic" evolutionists believe G-d should remain safely behind the Magical Door that also conceals Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy.<<

That is often not true. I'm a Christian. I believe in ID. My objection to ID is to teaching in Science class unless and until it is supported by enough evidence that the scientific community views it as a reasonable possibility. I don't think that will happen because I think God wants faith, not demands for proof.
152 posted on 05/03/2006 11:25:25 AM PDT by gondramB (He who angers you, in part, controls you. But he may not enjoy what the rest of you does about it.)
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To: Liberal Classic

Alrighty then!


153 posted on 05/03/2006 11:25:29 AM PDT by mlc9852
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To: js1138

>>Would that Biblical military strategy include killing every man, woman, child, fetus, dog, cat and bunny rabbit among the enemy?<<

I'm sure what your point is. My point is that we would never ask the military to fight based on biblical strategy - we expect them to fight based on what they have learned that works in the modern world.


154 posted on 05/03/2006 11:27:17 AM PDT by gondramB (He who angers you, in part, controls you. But he may not enjoy what the rest of you does about it.)
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To: gondramB

Weapons change, but generals still study Biblical military strategy. That's one thing the Bible seem to have right.


155 posted on 05/03/2006 11:29:52 AM PDT by js1138 (somewhere, some time ago, something happened, but whatever it was, wasn't evolution)
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To: metmom; mlc9852
Notice the evolutionists avoid answering the question of whether Jesus was lying when He said that God created Adam and Eve.

Of course He wasn't lying. And just as obviously, He never said or explained the "how" of that creation. For that matter, the "how" of creation isn't anywhere in the Bible. The so-called Biblical literalists simply skip over that inconvenience (and usually fill in the "how" gap with a juvenile image of God as a cheap magician waving a magic wand and sprinkling fairy dust).

156 posted on 05/03/2006 11:30:02 AM PDT by atlaw
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To: js1138
>>Weapons change, but generals still study Biblical military strategy. That's one thing the Bible seem to have right.<<

I don't really understand what you are talking about. I would have said you you had been condescending about the bible all morning and now you seem to suggest basing military strategy on it.
157 posted on 05/03/2006 11:33:52 AM PDT by gondramB (He who angers you, in part, controls you. But he may not enjoy what the rest of you does about it.)
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To: PatrickHenry
Skeptical discussion of Scientology

They seem to have their own version of evo, including Piltdown Man.

Xenudidit

158 posted on 05/03/2006 11:34:42 AM PDT by Virginia-American
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To: Junior; CarolinaGuitarman
We are talking about the FSM, right?

Chicken Tetrazini.

His Noodliness comes in many shapes and flavors.

159 posted on 05/03/2006 11:38:47 AM PDT by dread78645 (Evolution. A dying theory since 1859.)
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To: BibChr

As with liberalism in general, opponents of intelligent design wish to muzzle alternative presentation (as seen when conservative speakers are blacklisted or shouted down when they attempt to speak on University Campuses) .

If the man-from-monkey crowd are secure in the correctness of their theories, believing that in honest debate their view will prevail, then why are they attempting to "burn the books" of those with an alternative view?


160 posted on 05/03/2006 11:39:18 AM PDT by Moby Grape
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To: dread78645
His Noodliness comes in many shapes and flavors.

Ramen, brother.

161 posted on 05/03/2006 11:39:55 AM PDT by Junior (Identical fecal matter, alternate diurnal period)
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To: CarolinaGuitarman

Not from personal experience, LOL.

From old reports about cannibalism in the South Pacific. The islanders referred to man as "long pig", because it looks, cooks, and tastes like pork.


162 posted on 05/03/2006 11:41:57 AM PDT by wyattearp (Study! Study! Study! Or BONK, BONK, on the head!)
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To: Impeach the Boy

Bingo.


163 posted on 05/03/2006 11:42:14 AM PDT by BibChr ("...behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, so what wisdom is in them?" [Jer. 8:9])
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To: Liberal Classic; mlc9852; metmom
After reading Misquoting Jesus I wonder just how much of what Jesus supposedly said actually came out of his mouth.
164 posted on 05/03/2006 11:42:31 AM PDT by Junior (Identical fecal matter, alternate diurnal period)
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To: gondramB

You are correct. I have been out of sorts today. I get that way when the Bible gets brought up as a reference on science threads.


165 posted on 05/03/2006 11:42:35 AM PDT by js1138 (somewhere, some time ago, something happened, but whatever it was, wasn't evolution)
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To: Impeach the Boy
"As with liberalism in general, opponents of intelligent design wish to muzzle alternative presentation..."

It's the ID'ers taking the liberal route by crying victim and demanding *diversity* and affirmative action for a theological claim to be pushed into a science class.

"If the man-from-monkey crowd..."

You DO realize that most of the main proponents of ID have accepted common descent, right?

"then why are they attempting to "burn the books" of those with an alternative view?"

They are doing no such thing; they are asking for only science to be taught in a science classroom. ID is theology.
166 posted on 05/03/2006 11:43:59 AM PDT by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is grandeur in this view of life....")
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To: Impeach the Boy

>>If the man-from-monkey crowd are secure in the correctness of their theories, believing that in honest debate their view will prevail, then why are they attempting to "burn the books" of those with an alternative view?<<


You don't see a difference between not wanting to be ordered to teach something they don't believe has a scientific basis versus book burning.


167 posted on 05/03/2006 11:44:41 AM PDT by gondramB (He who angers you, in part, controls you. But he may not enjoy what the rest of you does about it.)
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To: Junior

There really seem to be two completely different people: one concerned with love and good works, and one concerned with keeping the preachers gainfully employed.


168 posted on 05/03/2006 11:44:48 AM PDT by js1138 (somewhere, some time ago, something happened, but whatever it was, wasn't evolution)
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To: atlaw

What Christian has ever told you they believed God sprinkled fairy dust to create human beings?


169 posted on 05/03/2006 11:45:15 AM PDT by mlc9852
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To: wyattearp

"Not from personal experience, LOL."

Well that's a relief! :)


170 posted on 05/03/2006 11:45:55 AM PDT by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is grandeur in this view of life....")
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To: js1138

>>You are correct. I have been out of sorts today. I get that way when the Bible gets brought up as a reference on science threads.<<

These threads have a way of doing that - I deliberately stayed out of discussions with one Freeper last night for just such a reason - I responded to his posts but removed his name.


171 posted on 05/03/2006 11:46:06 AM PDT by gondramB (He who angers you, in part, controls you. But he may not enjoy what the rest of you does about it.)
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To: Junior

I guess we'll have to find out after we get to Heaven and ask Him.


172 posted on 05/03/2006 11:46:09 AM PDT by mlc9852
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To: CarolinaGuitarman

I almost feel sorry for some of you - almost.


173 posted on 05/03/2006 11:47:07 AM PDT by mlc9852
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To: mlc9852

"I almost feel sorry for some of you - almost."

I don't feel sorry for you at all. Your ignorance is self-inflicted. :)

I don't do pity.


174 posted on 05/03/2006 11:48:32 AM PDT by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is grandeur in this view of life....")
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To: Dr. I. C. Spots
What? and evolution is not faith based?

No, it is not.

It takes more faith for someone to believe that, given enough time hydrogen will turn into a man,

I do not see the relevance of this statement, as the theory of evolution does not state that hydrogen will turn into a man under any circumstances.

than for me to believe that GOD created everything.

To which "GOD", out of the thousands of often mutually exclusive deities worshipped and acknowledged throughout human history, do you refer and why do you assume the existene of that particular deity and not any other? Also, what has this deity to do with the theory of evolution?

All of our so called brilliant scientists can't even duplicate an ant with all their collective reasoning brain power and your trying to tell me that it all just happened all by itself?,

I am curious. Do you have an actual argument against the mechanisms of the theory of evolution, or do you not understand what the theory actually states?

Cut all the mumbo-jumbo show me the validating experiments.

Are you unaware of the extensive fossil record? What of DNA evidence showing similar features, even in non-coding regions of DNA, across related species? At least bring back to life something that was once alive!

How would this validate evolution? Evolution says nothing regarding restoring life to the dead.

There are no scientific facts to support evolution that's why 58% still don't believe it,

This is inaccurate. You should understand that even though you personally do not understand evolution, it does not logically follow that no facts support it. It only means that you are unaware of them.

"Only a fool says in his heart, there is no GOD"

This is an unsupported assertion, and also not relevant to a discussion on evolution.
175 posted on 05/03/2006 11:50:52 AM PDT by Dimensio (http://angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif <-- required reading before you use your next apostrophe!)
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To: Impeach the Boy
If the man-from-monkey crowd are secure in the correctness of their theories, believing that in honest debate their view will prevail, then why are they attempting to "burn the books" of those with an alternative view?

They don't. Science simply demands the same thing from IDers that it demands from evolutionary theory - if you want your theory taught in schools, you need to do research, submit papers for peer review, subsequently allow those papers to undergo scrutiny by the community at large, then have your major discovery published in one of the more major journals, at which point science textbook writers include your theory in college level textbooks, and eventually, if the theory is appropriate in comprehension level, it enters the secondary school teaching arena.

What IDers and creationists demand instead is special treatment, a.k.a. affirmative action for their theory, when its advocates aren't even really participating in the scientific method to start with.

Sort of like football fans complaining that the referee won't count imaginary touchdowns for one side just because their opponents have stronger players.

176 posted on 05/03/2006 11:52:06 AM PDT by Quark2005 (Confidence follows from consilience.)
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To: Junior

Just looked that up on Amazon.com, and it has generated some interesting reviews.


177 posted on 05/03/2006 11:54:52 AM PDT by Liberal Classic (No better friend, no worse enemy. Semper Fi.)
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To: CarolinaGuitarman

And your arrogance is self-inflicted so in a way we are even.


178 posted on 05/03/2006 11:54:53 AM PDT by mlc9852
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To: Quark2005; Impeach the Boy
If the man-from-monkey crowd are secure in the correctness of their theories, believing that in honest debate their view will prevail...

It did prevail, by about 1870 or so.

Also, we have come to expect dishonest debate from the anti scientists. Soundbutes, sophistry, equivocation, drug-induced perjury, ...

179 posted on 05/03/2006 11:58:04 AM PDT by Virginia-American
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To: Liberal Classic
It's definitely worth the price. The author originally intended to read the original words of the Bible to know exactly what God had to say. During his researches and schooling, however, he came to realize the original words were long lost and it would be difficult to recreate them from all the different versions of Scripture that have come down through the ages (he mentions one of the early researchers in this field compiled 30,000 variations in the New Testament alone from only 100 different manuscripts).

It's a fascinating read as he weedles out what the original Scriptures may have said and explains why they were changed over the centuries (politics, typos, whatnot).

180 posted on 05/03/2006 12:01:38 PM PDT by Junior (Identical fecal matter, alternate diurnal period)
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To: mlc9852
Literalism can be debilitating, as your comment aptly demonstrates. My point is that many purveyors of so-called Biblical literalism do not address the Biblical vacuum regarding the "how" of creation, preferring to skip over the dilemma by simplistically explaining away creation as a kind of galactic parlor-trick performed by "God the Magician", as if God were wielding a magic wand and sprinkling fairy dust, and, perhaps unwittingly (although I doubt it at times), conveying precisely that image.

Indeed, this very same comic-book approach to biological development, diversification, and speciation is embedded in the "this-is-too-complicated-to-be-explained" core of ID.

181 posted on 05/03/2006 12:05:57 PM PDT by atlaw
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To: atlaw

It isn't that it is too complicated to explain, just that's it's too complicated to have just happened by random chance. Big difference.


182 posted on 05/03/2006 12:08:12 PM PDT by mlc9852
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To: js1138
... Biblical military strategy. That's one thing the Bible seem to have right.

Spare the prostitute?

183 posted on 05/03/2006 12:13:58 PM PDT by dread78645 (Evolution. A dying theory since 1859.)
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To: Virginia-American
They seem to have their own version of evo, including Piltdown Man.

The Scientologists have their own version of evolution. I don't think it fits with anything else, so I can't use it. Scientology History of Man. But it's no less scientific than ID, so perhaps their "theory" also belongs in science classes.

184 posted on 05/03/2006 12:15:36 PM PDT by PatrickHenry (Unresponsive to trolls, lunatics, fanatics, retards, scolds, & incurable ignoramuses.)
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To: Stultis
This only follows if the scientific account of reality is held to be complete complete -- requiring no supplementation from philosophy, religion, art, etc -- and held to be the only valid account. Most would brand this view "scientism".

Exactly. This is what your side is. You don't recognize it because you say that science is incomplete without "art, philosophy, religion," etc. But what do you mean by "religion?" Obviously by including it in with art and philosophy you hold it to be speculative and subjective, with no claims to facticity whatsoever.

What you advocates of modernity refuse to recognize is that "religion" doesn't exist. There is only G-d, for Whom everything else in existence is only a garment. Jewish civilization knows nothing of a separate category called "religion" because all of life is regulated--to a totalitarian degree--by "religious" discipline whose ultimate source is HaShem Yitbarakh. The same "religion" that regulates business and forbids murder and theft also regulates the Temple service, prayer, forbids unkosher food, regulates sexual relations, etc. Life is a single seamless reality governed in entirety by G-d, which is why devout Jews recite special blessings for almost every occasion.

Orthodox Judaism is actually much like islam in its overall attitude. It's a shame the Jewish people over the past centuries of persecution have caught a bad case of "minority-itis." If they could confront the world with the actual contents of their religion (rather than its context as a minority faith absolutely dependent on modernity in order to survive) the world might look very different than it does now. It might even be redeemed!

BTW, "religion" in Judaism is statutory rather than voluntary and salvational, which means that Fundamentalist Protestants wanting to mandate school prayer and Jews opposing it is highly ironic. Too bad no body but me seems to notice this.

185 posted on 05/03/2006 12:17:36 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Lo' `aleykha hamela'khah ligmor, 'aval lo' 'attah ben chorin lehibbatel mimennah.)
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To: Right Wing Professor

I'll concur with others that your post is good, but that doesn't mean I agree with everything in it! :-)

#####The GOP has been far smarter than the Dems, except perhaps Bill Clinton, in building coalitions. They are currently splintering, mostly because of the hubris of religious right.#####

Gotta disagree! The GOP is in trouble right now because of RINOs who support big spending, oppose protecting the borders, want to reward illegal aliens with amnesty, and a variety of other issues. Whenever the GOP moves leftward, it sinks. We could include the Harriet Miers nomination in this category had President Bush not corrected his mistake with Sam Alito. The religious right is the most loyal constituency the GOP has. That's why the GOP feels it can ignore them, even betray them, and still count on their loyalty. Secular, "moderate" Republicans are far less loyal. A lot is made here of the fact that the pro-ID Dover GOP school board was ousted in favor of leftist Democrats, but that's because secular Republicans sided with the Democrats over conservative Republicans. In contrast, liberal Republican Arlen Specter won re-election in Pennsylvania because conservatives limited their opposition to him to intra-party activities. They fought him in the primary, but when he won it, they backed him in the general election.

If a secularist Republican beats a Christian Republican in a primary, Christian voters will support the secularist in the general election because of party loyalty, but a Christian who beats a secularist in a GOP primary always has to worry about the secularist's backers defecting to the Democrat in the general election.

Even Barry Goldwater, when he became militantly secularist after marrying a leftist woman in his old age, caused the GOP to temporarily lose a U.S. House seat in Arizona. When a pro-life Republican beat a pro-abortion Republican in the primary in Goldwater's home district, he endorsed Karan English, a hardcore left-wing feminist Democrat. She won the election, using Goldwater's endorsement to tar her opponent as someone trying to impose a theocracy on America.


####BTW, intruding religious beliefs into science class is not a 'mild request' in the minds of scientists.####


If science is truly neutral on religion as claimed, the requests of critics of evolution wouldn't ruffle many feathers.

If science is clueless regarding God's existence or non-existence, then a few minutes of class time discussing this fact wouldn't hurt anything.


186 posted on 05/03/2006 12:19:09 PM PDT by puroresu (Conservatism is an observation; Liberalism is an ideology)
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To: mlc9852
"And your arrogance is self-inflicted so in a way we are even."

As I hadn't even said anything to you before you pinged me with your un-Christian attitude and false *pity*, it is you who are both arrogant and ignorant. And you like it that way.
187 posted on 05/03/2006 12:19:57 PM PDT by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is grandeur in this view of life....")
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To: gondramB
That is often not true. I'm a Christian. I believe in ID. My objection to ID is to teaching in Science class unless and until it is supported by enough evidence that the scientific community views it as a reasonable possibility. I don't think that will happen because I think God wants faith, not demands for proof.

See my previous post to Stultis.

What if instead of compartmentalizing life and labelling it we treated it as the wholistic gift of HaShem, the Supreme Reality? What if instead of asking "is this faith or science" we simply asked "what actually happened?" If you don't believe the Torah tells us "what really happened" perhaps you should study it a little more and learn its origin and transmission (about which most people are entirely ignorant).

188 posted on 05/03/2006 12:21:13 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Lo' `aleykha hamela'khah ligmor, 'aval lo' 'attah ben chorin lehibbatel mimennah.)
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To: CarolinaGuitarman

You called me two names and I only called you one. You win.


189 posted on 05/03/2006 12:21:31 PM PDT by mlc9852
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To: mlc9852

No scientist claims evolution happens by random chance. The spin of a roulette wheel produces random results, but the house always wins. This is easy enough to observe and document. There is no magic involved. The house does not have to cheat.

Play roulette long enough and the house will have all of everyone's money. Randomness does not preclude movement toward order.


190 posted on 05/03/2006 12:23:08 PM PDT by js1138
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To: mlc9852

"You called me two names and I only called you one. You win."

And who started with the attacks? Oh, that was you, in a fit of false pity and arrogant bile.


191 posted on 05/03/2006 12:24:19 PM PDT by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is grandeur in this view of life....")
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To: gondramB

The biggest lie is the lie that the devil doesn't exist is a lie. (It's turtles all the way down.) Or perhaps the existence of the anti-anti-anti-anti-missle-missle-missle-missle-missle.


192 posted on 05/03/2006 12:25:19 PM PDT by Doctor Stochastic (Vegetabilisch = chaotisch ist der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
"What if instead of asking "is this faith or science" we simply asked "what actually happened?"

That's what science is already doing, to the chagrin of Biblical literalists.
193 posted on 05/03/2006 12:26:46 PM PDT by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is grandeur in this view of life....")
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To: Junior

I've done something like this on my own by comparing my English Tanach with my King James Bible.


194 posted on 05/03/2006 12:27:19 PM PDT by Liberal Classic (No better friend, no worse enemy. Semper Fi.)
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To: PatrickHenry

EXCELLENT!


195 posted on 05/03/2006 12:29:39 PM PDT by RadioAstronomer (Senior member of Darwin Central)
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To: CarolinaGuitarman

I admit to the false pity but deny the arrogant bile.


196 posted on 05/03/2006 12:30:14 PM PDT by mlc9852
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To: mlc9852

"I admit to the false pity but deny the arrogant bile."

No doubt.


197 posted on 05/03/2006 12:30:55 PM PDT by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is grandeur in this view of life....")
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To: CarolinaGuitarman
It's an uphill battle, that's for sure.

Climbing a cliff is more like it. Sigh.

198 posted on 05/03/2006 12:31:46 PM PDT by RadioAstronomer (Senior member of Darwin Central)
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To: LibertarianSchmoe

#####But don't worry; ID still has plenty of support in the wide world of Islam.#####


This should make for some interesting adjudication somewhere down the line. Evolution is Politically Correct. So is Islam. As long as opposition to evolution can be given the "fundamentalist Christian" label, judges like Jones have no problem issuing a ruling. PC evolution = good. Non-PC "fundies" = bad. But when PC protected faiths start requesting that not only ID, but outright creationism be included in the curriculum, the unhittable baseball will encounter the unmissable baseball bat. Something will have to give once there are enough Muslims to have political clout equal to secularists.


199 posted on 05/03/2006 12:36:31 PM PDT by puroresu (Conservatism is an observation; Liberalism is an ideology)
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To: mlc9852

Not to be lawyerly about this (he said, leaving himself wide open), I suppose that depends on your definition of "random." If by random, you mean "without cause," then I would agree entirely with you. Once you proceed beyond principal causation, however, the issue gets murky. Even by fairly basic Biblical precepts, God is not a necessary driver for the minutia of His creation to operate.


200 posted on 05/03/2006 12:36:41 PM PDT by atlaw
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