Posted on 05/05/2006 8:45:41 PM PDT by killjoy
A Phuket marine-supply company is seeking permission to salvage what it believes are two British "human torpedoes" that have been lying in the sea near Phuket since World War II, the governor of Phuket said yesterday.
Governor Udomsak Asavarangura said East Marine SBS had sent a letter requesting permission to salvage the two human torpedoes, or Chariots, believed to belong to the British Royal Navy.
The Chariots sank near Dok Mai Island during a mission.
However, authorities in Phuket would first like East Marine to get British government confirmation that the two vessels really belonged to the British Royal Navy. "We need to have the evidence first, otherwise it could create problems for us later if the torpedoes are found to belong to another country," Udomsak said.
Manned torpedoes were secret naval weapons commissioned during World War II.
The British versions were electrically propelled mini-submarines with two crewmen equipped with diving suits riding astride.
They steered the vessel at slow speed to the enemy ship.
A detachable warhead was then used as a limpet mine after which the crew rode the "torpedo" away.
The device was carried by another vessel, usually a normal submarine, and launched near the target. The idea was successfully applied by the Italian navy early in World War II and then copied by the British when they discovered the Italian operations.
Some records say the British submarine Trenchant carried two Mk-2 Chariots for a mission at Phuket harbour on October 27-28, 1944.
Udomsak said the salvaging of the Chariots was related to national security, the environment and archaeology, and hence the province had to first consult several agencies, such as the Fine Arts Department, the National Resources and Environment Ministry and the Harbour Department.
The Chariots are archaeological finds under the authority of Thai Fine Arts Department, as they have been submerged in Thai waters for more than 60 years, Udomsak said.
"We also have to study the environmental effects," he said. "We still need information about how deep the naval weapons are under the water and how thick is the soil burying them."
Anat Bumroongwong, Director of the 15th Regional Fine Arts Office, Phuket, said people in Phuket had known about the submerged weapons "for a long time" but they had never been investigated by the authorities. He said Thai and UK authorities should work together to identify the nationality of the weapons.
He said if it could be proved that they were British Chariots, the
UK would have a right to retrieve them.
Anat added there were also "several objects" belonging to the Japanese submerged in Thai waters from World War II.
I say Phuket.
I'll have to check my references on this mission. The Chariot was an improved copy of the Italian Low Speed Torpedo. Both Italian and British forces used the weapon to great effect in WWII.
The Germans had a similar weapon that tended to kill the pilot. The Japanese version, the kaiten, was intended to kill the pilot. I have a small collection of books by surviving Kamikaze pilots and Kaiten pilots... an interesting substrain of literature. (they would be guys whose missions were canceled, or subs sunk under them, etc). I wish I knew Japanese, because I am sure there is much more available in that language.
During WWII Japan occupied Thailand along with Burma, Indochina and Malaya, and most of the Dutch East Indies (now Indonesia).
d.o.l.
Criminal Number 18F
That's POO ket.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_commando_frogmen#1944
October 27-28: The British submarine Trenchant carried two Mk 2 Chariots (nicknamed "Tiny" and "Slasher") to an attack on Phuket harbor in Thailand. They were released six miles out from the harbor. The targets were two Italian liners, the Sumatra and the Volpi, each approx 5000 tons. Six hours later, for the only time, the British charioteers rode back to their mothership. On the return journey the Trenchant jettisoned the chariots so it could travel faster, after receiving a report of a Japanese MTB in the area. The Trenchant carried the four charioteers back to Trincomalee. No chariot operations in combat in any war are certainly known of after this.
what a horrible way to die
Thanks for the links! Interesting stuff.
Yeah, if I was a human torpedo I'd say Phuket too.
I really dont see the need for permission, If they are in Thai waters.
Most likely they were ditched after returning to the mothership. The warheads are most likely not with the Chariots.
The British also used a larger midget submarine, the X-Craft.
The US Navy UDT operated Chariots for some years after World War II. They were a forerunner of today's Seal Delivery Vehicles (which are now very far advanced over WWII capability).
d.o.l.
Criminal Number 18F
Awww, Phuket.
This was against two Italian liners, the Sumatra and the Volpi, at Phuket, north of Penang, Malaya. On 27 October 1944, the Trenchant (Lt. Cdr. A.R. Hezlet RN) successfully launched two Mk.II 'Terry' Chariots. These were a great improvement on the Mark 1, with the two-man crew sitting back-to-back. The two chariot teams comprised Sub-Lt 'Lofty' Eleridge with Petty Officer Woollcott, and Petty Officer W.S. Smith and Steward A. Brown. The first pair successfully attacked and sunk the Sumatra in a text-book raid. The second team found that they unable to attach their charge to the hull of the Volpi, due to the deep draught and lack of space underneath the hull and then the barnacle-encrusted hull itself. Brown, therefore, had to place the charge inside the ship's engine-room, a job which took twenty extra minutes. Both crews returned to the Trenchant and were able to watch as their targets exploded. This was the last chariot attack of the war. After the war, Chariots were used in clearing harbours of wrecks and mines.
From Doorways in the Sand:
Instead it bounded forward and sprang toward me, my mind instantly filling with something which, when supplied with words, came through, roughly, as It is more {satisfying/noble} to die with your{teeth/claws}{in/at} the {throat/heart} of the enemy of {nest/totem/civilization}! Die, nest molester!
"I really dont see the need for permission, If they are in Thai waters."
Translation: the Thai government (or businesses) don't want to PAY for the retrieval of these mini-subs. Better to stick the "country of origin" with the bill. These are British wrecks, probably not worth much as salvage, sitting in Thai territorial waters. The Brits have, in effect, "littered" in Thailand. It's only right to ask them to clean the mess up,and pay for it, too.
They may also still have "live" ordinance aboard, which while submerged in salt water for sixty years, might still go "boom" when you least expect it.
Pu is pronounced like in "Winnie the pooh"
Thai Ping
They were going to get them and got caught up in red tape. In the end they said "phuket"
I disagree. Without knowing more details, it is hard to say, but here is my take. Whoever is in charge on the Thai side is not sure of the legal situation. If he approves something that could come back to haunt him, he is in major trouble. He is not going to risk his career, or chance of promotion, by doing something that will piss off the UK.
The other possible answer is whoever is in charge on the Thai side is making it difficult because he is looking for a bribe. He is throwing up artificial obstacles in order to get it. This is very common in Thailand and I have run into it quite often here.
"I disagree. Without knowing more details, it is hard to say, but here is my take. Whoever is in charge on the Thai side is not sure of the legal situation. If he approves something that could come back to haunt him, he is in major trouble. He is not going to risk his career, or chance of promotion, by doing something that will piss off the UK."
Applying my imperfect knowledge of international law, anything within Thailand's three-mile limit is property of Thailand, unless there is some extenuating circumstance (for example, if there reason to believe that war dead were aboard one of these things). Thailand would be well within it's rights under salvage law to recover the things or leave them alone.
Salvage of anything from underwater is an expensive proposition, particularly if the wreck is a grave or has historical signifigance (both situations have their own sections of Salvage Law attached to them). If the story above is correct, there are no war dead, and the hsitorical signifigance is next-to-nil: the subs never carried out their mission and it was a very minor footnote to a very minor operation, in an otherwise major war.
We're not talking about locating the sunken Bismark in the open sea, or leaving Japanese mini-subs sunk off Hawaii in place as war graves. If I had to guess, these mini-subs are representing either a hazard to navigation or, more likely, a future hazard to future development.
"The other possible answer is whoever is in charge on the Thai side is making it difficult because he is looking for a bribe. He is throwing up artificial obstacles in order to get it. This is very common in Thailand and I have run into it quite often here."
In which case, the British government WILL be paying for the removal of those mini-subs, in one way or another, assuming they agree to it. Otherwise, the Thais, if it suited their interests over the last 60 years, would have done it themselves or taken steps to solve this matter already.
Cool, I've dove all over Phuket, but not sure where Dok Mai island is.
According to the story I found online, it looks like the subs successfully attacked their targets and were scuttled after the crew got back to safety. If so, they could be outside of Thai territorial waters.
My gut feeling is the team wants to bring them up for historical reasons. Unfortunately, I doubt the Thais could bring them up themselves. The Thai military has massive budgets problems and getting something like this approved would be incredibly difficult unless someone in a very high position took a personal interest in it.
In Thailand, WWII history is almost forgotten. Keep in mind that Thailand was loosely allied with the Axis powers. Yes, the Free Thai movement worked with the OSS and fought against the Japanese but it is now just a footnote in a history book.
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