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Bonds Hits No. 713, Moves Within One Of Ruth
CBS2CHICAGO ^ | 7 MAY 2006 | AP

Posted on 05/07/2006 10:00:12 PM PDT by Extremely Extreme Extremist

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To: isthisnickcool

The Cincinnati Reds now have cheerleaders. Maybe you should give baseball another shot.

The steroid question is difficult to answer. The game has changed a lot since the days of Ruth. Things have been altered to favor the hitter over the pitcher (mounds lowered, ballparks shrinking, balls being replaced more frequently). Additionally, there are performance enhancers. Say a pitcher from the olden times blew out his elbow. His career was over. Nowadays, the player will have Tommy Johns surgery and come back. Should his stats get an asterisk because it is modern medicine that allowed him to achieve that?

But I suppose for all my questions I would have to say no to steroids. The distinguishing feature is that they chemically alter the player's body to enable play beyond what is naturally possible. The problem is enforcement, and the temptation for aspiring players to do whatever they can to get the edge. No one would care about it if the hallowed records of Aaron weren't in danger of being broken by a man who is something of a freak of science. It's just so strange--Ruth is larger than life, a tragic hero and the original slugger; Aaron is the tortured model of consistency, a man who faced untold malice of racists while also bearing the weight of history. Bonds is an acerbic man with no charisma and no compelling backstory.

Rose should not be allowed into the Hall of Fame. As well as superior playing ability, it's also supposed to be for good ambassadors of the game. Rose disrespected the game by his antics and his lack of sincere repentence. He doesn't deserve it. Curt Flood on the other hand does deserve some sort of honor in Cooperstown.


101 posted on 05/08/2006 12:17:59 AM PDT by Cyclopean Squid (History is a work in progress)
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Comment #102 Removed by Moderator

To: Borders.Language.Beer.

I played baseball from aged 9 in 1966 till aged 19 in 1976...basically from Dixie Youth Little League up to Servian-American Legion League where guys either got drafted to the minors or scholarships

I never saw roids in those latter teen years though I see them now in High School players


103 posted on 05/08/2006 12:24:05 AM PDT by wardaddy (I am buying Shelby Steele's new book: White Guilt)
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To: My Favorite Headache
I for one think he probably did roid up...but what he is accomplishing in the last 2-3 years under so much scrutiny...I am giving him the benefit of the doubt and saying he is passing Ruth's record on legit power and talent.

Bonds isn't exactly having a stellar year. And he isn't really passing Ruth's record on legit power and talent. Say I am participating in a marathon. I ride in a car for the first 25 miles, then hop out and do the last one on my own. I win easily. You can't say that I won it legitimately. If Bonds cheated in the past, his current accomplishments cannot stand.

The sad part is that if he didn't cheat, he would still have been one of the greats. Aaron's record would have been safe (at least until A-Rod and Pujols), but he would have been the best all-around player of his generation. Now he's just a tainted joke.
104 posted on 05/08/2006 12:24:07 AM PDT by Cyclopean Squid (History is a work in progress)
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To: Primetimedonna

Drugs may not explain talent but they certainly exploit talent. As was pointed out earlier, his numbers exploded when naturally they should have been falling. That effect did not come from all those years of practice.

I don't think anybody here would disagree that Barry is loaded with talent. However, his admittance to using performance enhancing drugs sheds a negative light on all of his accomplishments. That is actually kind of sad.


105 posted on 05/08/2006 12:25:41 AM PDT by Paulus
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To: Brimack34; Mr. Mojo

And they lowered the mound because after Gibson's stellar year (who as you know was both black and one of the best pitchers ever) the hitters cried foul, so to speak.


106 posted on 05/08/2006 12:27:19 AM PDT by Cyclopean Squid (History is a work in progress)
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To: KoRn
Its a shame. The comparison with Ruth really isn't valid because back then they didn't throw 90mph.

Try telling that to the ghost of Walter Johnson and Cy Young. A little before Ruth's time, but the pitchers back then had plenty of cheese. And everyone knows that any major leaguer can crush a fastball. It's the breaking pitches that win games.
107 posted on 05/08/2006 12:31:03 AM PDT by Cyclopean Squid (History is a work in progress)
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To: Petronski; All

Ruth or Bonds? Don't make me laugh.

Hank Aaron is included in my chuckles.

The true Home Run King is none other than Josh Gibson. And that's that.

108 posted on 05/08/2006 12:31:19 AM PDT by rdb3 (It helps now that I'm no longer young enough to know everything.)
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To: Primetimedonna

Anybody knowledgable knows that Bonds is talented.

They also know that he is tainted.


109 posted on 05/08/2006 12:32:34 AM PDT by PBRSTREETGANG
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To: Cyclopean Squid
Nicely written, Cy!

Bonds is all ego, He will never be the player Ruth was and lacks the character of Hank Aaron. He wants a stat to prove his greatness. Unearned.
110 posted on 05/08/2006 12:34:14 AM PDT by BIGLOOK (Order of Battle: Sink or capture as Prize, MS Media)
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To: stillonaroll

And walk-off homers didn't count back then either. Say the Yanks were tied with the Red Sox 4-4 in the Bronx. Bottom of the 9th. Runner on first. Babe hits one out of the park. As soon as the runner on first scores, the game ends, 5-4. The Babe would not be credited with a home run. I'm not sure how this affected Ruth's career numbers, but it's an interesting rule.


111 posted on 05/08/2006 12:36:33 AM PDT by Cyclopean Squid (History is a work in progress)
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To: Paulus

The numbers before were still better than average. The drugs may have helped, I don't really know what he really used, and what he really believed them to be. But he also has had himself on a strenuous work out routine of over 4 hours per day for many years, which may have helped as well.

On the contrary to what you say, MANY here disagree that he is loaded with talent. Many people, led by the MSM, have had a campaign to tear him down for much of his career. His dislike of the media has been well documented, and as most of us on FR know, the media can do a pretty good job of tearing people down whether they be sports personalities or politicians. He has been portrayed as less than pleasant, so many like to use him as a whipping boy. Technically he has not admitted to using enhancing drugs, which is part of what annoys folks. I do agree with you that using anything to enhance himself does shed a negative light, and it is sad. But I don't think it should bring out the venom many here show.


112 posted on 05/08/2006 12:38:15 AM PDT by Primetimedonna (Charter member of the San Francisco SnowFlakes! We love our Tony! It's SAN FRANCISCO, not Frisco.)
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To: PBRSTREETGANG

"They also know that he is tainted"

Amazing what people "Know" without first hand proof.


113 posted on 05/08/2006 12:40:29 AM PDT by Primetimedonna (Charter member of the San Francisco SnowFlakes! We love our Tony! It's SAN FRANCISCO, not Frisco.)
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To: BIGLOOK

Did I read you post correctly? Are you implying Babe Ruth wasn't "all ego"? Many writers and players of his time may disagree.


114 posted on 05/08/2006 12:42:19 AM PDT by Primetimedonna (Charter member of the San Francisco SnowFlakes! We love our Tony! It's SAN FRANCISCO, not Frisco.)
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To: Luke21

Joe Morgan was a great player but not a good analyst or commentator. He also claimed that Aaron had "way" more RBIs than the #2 guy on the list. The #2 guy is the Babe (which Joe never mentioned). Aaron has 2297, Ruth has 2217. That's not a big difference, especially when you consider that Aaron played 795 more games than Ruth. And if Gehrig hadn't gotten sick, he would easily have held a virtually unbreakable record (he retired with 1995 and many more years of playing time ahead of him).


115 posted on 05/08/2006 12:43:15 AM PDT by Cyclopean Squid (History is a work in progress)
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To: Primetimedonna
Ruth dominated in his time and yeah.....he had a big ego. Earned.

Reread the first post.
116 posted on 05/08/2006 12:48:24 AM PDT by BIGLOOK (Order of Battle: Sink or capture as Prize, MS Media)
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To: stillonaroll
Why does that matter? The pitching at the time was quality, just as it is today. Ruth was a great hitter, as was a lot of other players through history. The problem is today, you do not know who is real and who isn't.

BTW, what is Bond's ERA?
117 posted on 05/08/2006 12:53:29 AM PDT by okiecon
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To: A message

Don't forget to ask how many season's of "deadball" baseball Ruth played, where entire teams did not hit as many home runs as he did?


118 posted on 05/08/2006 12:58:06 AM PDT by okiecon
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To: Primetimedonna

I remember him in Pittsburgh... Everybody knew he was special.

I just googled "Barry + Bonds + admits = " Bonds admits he used a clear substance and a cream that was supplied to him by his trainer, but he didn't know the substances contained steroids."

As a former athlete.Athletes are really aware about what goes into the machine. He knew what he was doing.

4 hour workouts... I would say he was not working out with any intensity. If he was working out with a lot of intensity, he would need more than protien powder and vitamins to recover. Things slow down as we age. Recovery is one of those things.

As far as the media goes... I would hate them to. If in the same situation. I cannot say I would be helpful to that beast. I kind of admire his disdain for the media.

I make my own decisions and I stick to them... Sometimes it takes me a while to process the info. but I do the best I can and I am always learning.


119 posted on 05/08/2006 1:06:05 AM PDT by Paulus
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To: BIGLOOK

Bonds earned his ego as well.

I already read the other post!


120 posted on 05/08/2006 1:08:44 AM PDT by Primetimedonna (Charter member of the San Francisco SnowFlakes! We love our Tony! It's SAN FRANCISCO, not Frisco.)
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To: Extremely Extreme Extremist
OK, if you wanna go there. Let's asterisk ALL the Hall-of-Famers who have been caught cheating. Former baseball commissioner Ford C. Frick is best remembered for being the instigator of the asterisk on Roger Maris' shattering of Babe Ruth's 60 HR season. That travesty stuck to Maris until the day he died, and was finally renounced thirty years later.

Frick's asterisk is nowadays viewed as an error made out of his personal friendship with Ruth (Frick was the Babe's ghost writer) and the baseball world's reverence of the Bambino. Bud Selig, whose only significant accomplishment as commissioner is the realignment of the divisions and the Wild Card, would be a fool to duplicate Frick's biggest mistake.

Selig has revealed himself to be a Frickin' idiot in the past; only Bud would have declared a tie in an All-Star game. But he can't be a total moron, and he should be able to figure out that if he comes down on Bonds, the question will be where in the heck he was while all of Bonds'(and other players') juicing was going on. IMHO, any suspension for rules infractions by Bonds is a tacit admission that he fell down on the job, and should resign.

I have yet to hear or read of a credible or fair way to determine which home runs Bonds, Giambi, Caminiti, Palmeiro or Canseco may have hit that were a result of use of steroids. Certainly nobody is suggesting that there have been any tainted homers in Bonds' past three seasons under mandatory random testing. Besides, singling Bonds out among all known juiced players is unfair not only to Bonds, it is congenitally unjust.

For better or for worse, unless something season-ending happens to Bonds very soon, he will be second on the all-time list when this season is over. He may be under indictment or he may be suspended, but he will be second only to Hank Aaron.

121 posted on 05/08/2006 1:13:50 AM PDT by L.N. Smithee
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To: Paulus

We may not agree with each other on everything, but I truly admire folks like you who keep an open mind. I like to think I do as well....so much easier to listen to others when ideas are articulated, rather than listening to tired old rants saying the same thing!!

I know athletes are careful of what they put into their bodies, but I'm not 100% convinced that Bonds wasn't at least partially duped since the cream and the clear were applied topically. As for the workouts, what I've seen and read, they are indeed the real deal and did involve the usual protein powder and pills. His personal trainer put him through a pretty rigorous routine, some of which we could see on the field before the park opened. I'm sure I'm a bit naive, and will cop to such, but still wonder if he didn't put too much stock in the integrity of his trainer.

I thank you for input that can help me make my decisions as well!


122 posted on 05/08/2006 1:16:52 AM PDT by Primetimedonna (Charter member of the San Francisco SnowFlakes! We love our Tony! It's SAN FRANCISCO, not Frisco.)
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To: L.N. Smithee

Well said.


123 posted on 05/08/2006 1:19:44 AM PDT by Primetimedonna (Charter member of the San Francisco SnowFlakes! We love our Tony! It's SAN FRANCISCO, not Frisco.)
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To: Extremely Extreme Extremist
" "
124 posted on 05/08/2006 1:34:01 AM PDT by Roy Tucker
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To: KoRn

My guess is that he will pass Ruth but retire before surpassing Aaron to avoid the aggravation.


125 posted on 05/08/2006 1:39:28 AM PDT by Roy Tucker
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To: stillonaroll

Just wanted to clarify that Ruth would have faced Latino pitchers, just not black Latino pitchers.


126 posted on 05/08/2006 1:46:54 AM PDT by Roy Tucker
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To: Primetimedonna
Amazing what people "Know" without first hand proof.

Amazing what some people are willing to overlook in the face of ample evidence.

127 posted on 05/08/2006 3:29:11 AM PDT by PBRSTREETGANG
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To: Bush_Democrat

I hope they have a rally( similar to the cursed ball in chicago)by dropping it in a vat of dog poopoo and then smash it, sell the t.v rights so the guy who caught it can pocket a few dollars and then have it replayed over and over on espn's top 10.


128 posted on 05/08/2006 3:35:28 AM PDT by dubyawhoiluv
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To: KoRn
"The comparison with Ruth really isn't valid because back then they didn't throw 90mph"

That I doubt, just because they didn't have radar guns doesn't mean they weren't throwing 90 or better.

129 posted on 05/08/2006 3:55:16 AM PDT by #1CTYankee (That's right, I have no proof. So what of it??)
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To: KoRn
"The comparison with Ruth really isn't valid because back then they didn't throw 90mph"

That I doubt, just because they didn't have radar guns doesn't mean they weren't throwing 90 or better.

130 posted on 05/08/2006 3:55:17 AM PDT by #1CTYankee (That's right, I have no proof. So what of it??)
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To: Extremely Extreme Extremist

Looks like Baseball is not going to do a thing about this. What a pathetic Commissioner! A weak, jelly-spined, risk-averse place-holder.


131 posted on 05/08/2006 4:23:50 AM PDT by bondjamesbond (Rice 2008)
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To: My Favorite Headache

So it won't matter to you if hundreds of the HR were due to steroid use as long as the last 50 were 'legit'. That's a crappy argument.


132 posted on 05/08/2006 4:35:47 AM PDT by Trust but Verify (( ))
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To: stillonaroll
"How many black or Latin pitchers did Babe Ruth face in his career"

Answer: A whole bunch, but not in lrague play. Ruth used to go "barnstorming" in the off season through Central America and faced all kinds of pitchers.

What makes Ruths batting so impressive is that the ball was not as lively then as it is now.

133 posted on 05/08/2006 4:37:25 AM PDT by Jimmy Valentine (DemocRATS - when they speak, they lie; when they are silent, they are stealing the American Dream)
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To: Lancey Howard
"Is that a joke?"

Ok I'll rephrase. 'Modern Day pitching', which I'm sure is better due to mechanics. The 90mph fastball idea just seemed to be the best way to say it at the moment. =)

134 posted on 05/08/2006 5:11:01 AM PDT by KoRn
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To: stillonaroll
How many black or Latin pitchers did Babe Ruth face in his career?

Questions like this are pretty silly, when you look at all of the vast differences in a sport from one generation to the next.

Here's my question . . . Leaving Latin pitchers out of the mix (since there was no "language barrier" in Major League Baseball that prevented them from playing back in Ruth's day) -- How many black pitchers has Bonds faced in his career, and how much better were they than the white pitchers he faced?

135 posted on 05/08/2006 5:50:11 AM PDT by Alberta's Child (Can money pay for all the days I lived awake but half asleep?)
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To: stillonaroll
Ruth, being on of “theirs,” having played in New York almost his entire career, is especially venerated by the East Coast sports media. They don’t give Hank Aaron sufficient props, as he played outside elsewhere.

One reason Aaron never got the credit he deserved is that he was something of an anomaly in the game of baseball. He was the all-time home run king, yet was never much of a "slugger" in the classic sense of the term. He never hit more than 47 home runs in any given season, and won only three home run titles in his 23-year career (compared to Ruth's 12 in only about 16 full seasons), and surpassed Ruth in a methodical, consistent manner of the course of his career. Aaron was basically a line-drive hitter with very strong wrists whose 755 career home runs were primarily a function of the small ballparks in which he played (in Atlanta and Milwaukee).

This is not a knock on Aaron, of course. Despite his career home run title, I think he's one of the most underrated ballplayers of all time. His 755 home runs really overshadow the fact that he was a great all-around hitter. His 3,771 hits are #3 on the all-time list (to put this in perspective, just understand that he has 3,000+ career hits other than the 755 home runs he hit), and his .305 lifetime batting average is actually higher than "all-time great" Pete Rose's.

136 posted on 05/08/2006 6:06:35 AM PDT by Alberta's Child (Can money pay for all the days I lived awake but half asleep?)
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To: Extremely Extreme Extremist

barry bonds WHO?....


137 posted on 05/08/2006 6:07:38 AM PDT by BallandPowder
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To: okiecon

Bonds' ERA = 0.00. I'm pretty sure he's never allowed an earned run. And his career WHIP is 0.00 too.


138 posted on 05/08/2006 6:58:59 AM PDT by Cyclopean Squid (History is a work in progress)
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To: pepperhead
Was there any good Latin pitchers back then?

I hear Gaius Tullius Celeritas was OK.

139 posted on 05/08/2006 7:10:35 AM PDT by HIDEK6
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To: rvoitier

A banner being held by people to the right of your banner read, "Aaron did it on class".


140 posted on 05/08/2006 7:13:36 AM PDT by ryan71
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To: My Favorite Headache
What amazes me is if you watch Costas Now this past week with a roundtable of former players...they ALL said including Mike Schmidt that if steroids were popular and around when they played...they would have taken them as well.

Everybody wants to forget that part - that a sizable number of pitchers Bonds got those homeruns off of were also using performance-enhancing drugs.

The level playing field - and no MLB rule against steroid usage at the time mean that any talk of an asterisk is just ludicrous envy. Bonds' HR numbers are 100% legitimate given the environment he operated in. Steroids didn't help him hit more or longer home runs, they just kept him off of the DL...which is why he isn't likely to catch Aaron at this point. He's got too many nagging injuries and permanent knee problems.

141 posted on 05/08/2006 7:20:52 AM PDT by Mr. Jeeves ("When the government is invasive, the people are wanting." -- Tao Te Ching)
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To: PBRSTREETGANG

"Amazing what some people are willing to overlook in the face of ample evidence."

Yeah, I'm one of those crazy types who figures I'll wait until I have all the evidence possible, not just "ample" evidence, whatever that is. I'm kind of silly about waiting till a person is proven guilty before castigating them. Go figure.


142 posted on 05/08/2006 7:29:54 AM PDT by Primetimedonna (Charter member of the San Francisco SnowFlakes! We love our Tony! It's SAN FRANCISCO, not Frisco.)
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To: KoRn

I understand what you are saying and I disagree mightily.
Back when there were a total of only 16 teams, and each team had a rotation of only four starters, the competition for those starting jobs was a lot more fierce than it is today.

There were very few "mediocre" pitchers. Look around the league today and you'll see that most teams have an ace or two and then fill out the rotation with a parade of nobodies. From night to night, Ruth certainly faced better pitching than today's hitters.


143 posted on 05/08/2006 7:38:15 AM PDT by Lancey Howard
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To: Cyclopean Squid
And walk-off homers didn't count back then either. Say the Yanks were tied with the Red Sox 4-4 in the Bronx. Bottom of the 9th. Runner on first. Babe hits one out of the park. As soon as the runner on first scores, the game ends, 5-4. The Babe would not be credited with a home run. I'm not sure how this affected Ruth's career numbers, but it's an interesting rule.

I’ve never heard that before. When was the rule changed?

144 posted on 05/08/2006 7:52:25 AM PDT by stillonaroll
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To: Extremely Extreme Extremist

Hard to decide whether to cheer the gigantic and awesome home run hit, or boo the guy who hit it.


145 posted on 05/08/2006 7:54:35 AM PDT by RightWhale (Off touch and out of base)
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To: Primetimedonna
I'm kind of silly about waiting till a person is proven guilty before castigating them. Go figure.

Be as silly as you like.

I'm kinda silly in that once I see sufficient evidence, both direct and circumstantial, I feel I can make up my own mind as to what transpired.

Good luck helping O.J. search for the real killers.

146 posted on 05/08/2006 8:01:42 AM PDT by PBRSTREETGANG
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To: stillonaroll
How many stolen bases did Babe Ruth have? Bonds has 500.

What's Bonds' ERA? How many wins? How many innings pitched?

147 posted on 05/08/2006 8:04:40 AM PDT by Petronski (I just love that woman.)
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To: PBRSTREETGANG

We'll be able to save the government lots of money. Now we can dispense with all those arcane trials and such. We can just run things by you! Who knew!

Don't play golf, so I can't help OJ out. sorry! ;>)


148 posted on 05/08/2006 8:04:43 AM PDT by Primetimedonna (Charter member of the San Francisco SnowFlakes! We love our Tony! It's SAN FRANCISCO, not Frisco.)
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To: TheWasteLand

Everybody gains three hat sizes in their late thirties . . . don't they?


149 posted on 05/08/2006 8:07:43 AM PDT by Petronski (I just love that woman.)
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To: stillonaroll
How many stolen bases did Babe Ruth have? Bonds has 500.

Babe Ruth was beloved by fans. Bonds is a racist jerk hated by nearly everyone he comes into contact with.

150 posted on 05/08/2006 8:08:28 AM PDT by Trailerpark Badass
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