Skip to comments.Ceku: Kosovo Albanian independence close
Posted on 05/15/2006 12:16:10 PM PDT by Bokababe
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So, if I read you correctly, then the entire CIA strategy for "managing the Balkans" can be summed up as:
"When fascism is in power, back the communists, and when communism is in power, back the fascists"
Is that correct?
Actually I'm on an Orthodox mailing list with a Croation who is intent to point out that there are Serb Muslims in Bosnia, that's why I make the distinction. Said Croatian was intent to pin the crimes of Serbian Muslims outside Serbia on Serbs in general.
If they are Orthodox, then yeah i'd call em Serbs.
Unless Americans finally stand up and fight, this is what could happen to the American Southwest in another 20 years. OF course, the Serbs did fight but Clinton would not let them win. How sad.
BINGO! Im deeply touched, I feel like a father of your success. Thank you for sharing with me the obvious thing that the Serbs are the Serbs. It was not easy for you to come to this conclusion but with my help you did it! My satisfaction is even bigger.
The definition of "a Serb" historically had always been based on "being a Serbian Orthodox Christian" -- and Bosnia was the original proving ground for this idea.
Bosnian Serbs were baptized as Serbian Orthodox Christians on the ground on which they stood-- IN Bosnia. But (especially in Bosnia) if you converted from Serbian Orthodoxy to something else -- Catholicism or Islam -- you were no longer considered "a Serb". Likewise, the Muslims and Croats looked at it the same way -- you were no longer "a Croat" if you converted to something else. So being "a Serb" has never had anything to do with being "from Serbia". (The distinction between "being from Serbia" vs. "being a Serb" --from anywhere -- exist in the Serbo-Croat language(s) as well, so this is not just "American intellectualism").
It is only the recent generation -- communist and post-communist -- who sees "Serbian Orthodoxy" as only some sort of "optional add-on" to the geographic and ethnic identities as "Serbs".
And this is also why you see some Montenegrins saying that they are "not Serbs" -- because they only see themselves in the light of politics and geography, not their religious Faith. Some just can't see the connection of Faith as mattering that much anymore. But as I have pointed out to many Montenegrins, if they choose that "Montenegrin only" outlook, then they cut the connection between themselves and their own heroic historical figures like Njegos and Prince Danilo -- who all considered themselves "Serbs".
Being "a Serb" where ever you are geographically -- including in the US or Canada -- ONLY makes sense if it is based on being a Serbian Orthodox Christian. And there is only a "unity of the Serbs" if you see it's structure much like Orthodoxy itself -- some of us are "the hands", some of us are "the feet", but we are all of "one body".
Ok. I'll get off my soapbox now.
Just out of curiosity, as there are Serbian Orthodox churches in America, say an Irish Catholic converts to Serbian Orthodoxy, are they now Serbian?
You know Ohio, I think that we, as Americans, are so confused about "who we are" and "what we represent as a people", that we are easy for politicians and the media to manipulate. They play our emotions like a violin and we wind up doing anything to please them -- and ourselves.
Re the NATO Bombing of Yugoslavia, that was exactly why we all backed it -- we wanted to see ourselves as "heroes protecting the underdog from the big bad guy"; we wanted to "altruistically liberate a people from an oppressor".
In short, for once, we wanted to be "our fathers" who fought for justice from tyranny during WWII. Not only were so many allusions to WWII to made by the media from the ealy 1990's on -- "deathcamps, ethnic cleansing, Nazis" -- hell, even Clinton and Blair, tried to assume to FDR and Churchill roles -- making us all forget our post-Vietnam hangover, and instead become a part of "a just war" -- "a WWII" --and a war that we could win without much sacrifice on our part as long as we got to "play the part". This all appealed to our narcissism, and it worked.
Now we have the same problems as the Serbs do. Southern California is quickly becoming an early-stage "Kosovo". So now what?
Until we really figure out who we are and what we really stand for, we won't find an answer that works.
They are "a Serb", yes.
Here in CA, there was a guy who was half-Albanian & half-Croat by blood, and he was originally Catholic by religion. He had converted to Serbian Orthodoxy during WWII and joined Mihailovich's forces. He was born and raised in Dubrovnik and came to the US post-war. That guy not only became "a Serb", he was elected the president of the Oakland Serbian Orthodox Church twenty years ago -- and his last name is Albanian.
Likewise for a Scot without a drop of Serb blood who was raised in Scotland and came to the US in his twenties. He married a Serb girl, converted and also became a church president here in CA.
Unfortunately, since the last wars, the wave of Serb refugees who have come to our churches here in the US and find so much seemingly "non-Serb" (translate: "non-Yugoslav")about us, have not liked it. But then again, many of these refugees only learned to cross themselves about fifteen minutes ago, so what do they know?
It's an interesting scenerio. It seems to me they CAN become Serbs if they embrace the ethnic traditions as well but I have troubling seeing it as a given.
Would you say the same of Russians and ROCOR or MP parishes?
Basicaly Serbs are concidered Eastern Ortodox, on same way as English are Anglican, Irish are Catholics etc.
But, There are (small numers) of Serbs, Cathokics, Muslims even Baptists (in my hometown we have baptist, Adventist and Evangelist church) on same manner, Anglish can be catholic and Irash can be protestant.
As for me, My father is Half Hungarian mother Serbian, and Im Serbian.
Basicly, you are what you fell and act like.
It seems to me that if they embrace the Church, they automatically DO embrace the traditions, since most of the traditons came FROM the Church. Among Serbs, this includes celebrating Slava, embracing the Serbian Saints, etc.
And I would argue that these "converts" who do embrace the Serbian Orthodox Church have far more of a right to call themselves, "Serbs" than those with "the right last name" (often shared by Croats, as my maiden name was) or who speak "the right language" (contrary to modern argument, it is the SAME language with minor dialectical differences as the Croats and Moslems speak) or who born "on the right piece of geography" (which is the same land as Croats, Muslims, Gypsies & Jews were born on also.) Being born in the former Yugoslavia may make you "a Yugoslav", but it doesn't make you "a Serb".
Much like the Jews, we don't have to born in Israel to be "a Jew" -- and not all Israelis even are Jews. Likewise, you can be "a Serb" where ever you are born, and not all people born in Serbia are even "Serbs".
Interesting question re the Russians, but I have no real answer for that, only more questions. My knowledge of Russian history is not as good as it should be.
I am not sure that Russians really ever derived their entire identity as "Russians" based on religion. I think that they were "Russians" first and then became Orthodox. But I could be wrong about that.
I do know that Serbs through out history, until the recent genrations, conpletely defined themselves based on their Faith. Post communism, that is no longer the case.
Many of the older generations of "Serbs" --from which I and many American-born Serbs come from --never had "a country" to completely identify with, unless they were from Serbia.
Although my heritage comes from today's Montenegro, where my father was born, Boka Kotorska, was then part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, not part of Montenegro. For many Serbs from Lika, Bosnia-Hercegovina and Dalmatia, the story was the same -- they weren't Serbs based on geography, they were Serbs based on religion. And in many of the lands I just mentioned, there were no fence-sitters about religion because someone was always trying to convert you or kill you for what you were.
Today, post-communism, you call yourself what you feel like being sans the religious tie. And that is something most American-born Serbs can't fathom about Serbs born in Yugo. Because, based on that logic, I am not "a Serb" at all, but just "an American" in spite of celebrating all the Serbian religious rites and cultural traditions longer and more faithfully than most Yugo-born Serbs have -- or have even been able to do.
But you know, if I let myself think that way, then I'd be out swimming and playing tennis instead of devoting so much of my time trying to help "my people", and that would mean what I have done all of these years is a waste of my time and energy -- and that I don't believe for a second.
LOL guys dont miss x5452s question wherever he may consider himself as a Russian or not. Hehe He is really funny guy.
x5452, be not afraid, I told you many times that you are more Russian that most of Russian nationalists.
I think I understand Re the Serbs but my knowledge of Serbs is not great.
As far as Russia I think there was for a long time a situation where to be Russian was to be Orthodox and in Russia to be Orthodox was to be Russian. (Part of why Cathrine the Great was respected as being Russian, and having been baptised into the Russian church).
Certainly this is less true within Russia today but not altogether false either. Even the Russian athiests I know are familiar with the traditions and holidays of the church.
I think its very similar, that up until the revolution the two were inseparably intertwined, and even today the Orthodox church is part of the core Russian identity. (I always find it hilaerous that most Russians when I mention my parents are not Orthodox assume they are Catholic btw) I think most Russians view anything that isn't the Russian Orthodox church as something foreign and non-Russian, so that would seem to make it a pretty core part of their identity.
Boo I'm a big scary Russian now go pee in my soup as Lizol said. ;p
It is you who are a really funny guy Lukas.
(Further Lukas you've never refered to me as Russian you've reffered to me as a Soviet, and KGB member)
I still remember your shocking statement, that you would join to the communist party of USSR if you would gain financially. Something that I simply cannot forget.
I never said anything of the kind you liar.
You said that you are not Orthodox and not Catholic, but you are Russian. So, I am really trying to understand --not razz you -- what religion are you? I know that there are a lot of Rusiians who converted to Protestantism. There is a Russian Baptist church across the street from our SOC church.
By the way, there are a huge number of Jehovah's Witnesses from Serbia here -- the Jehovah's Witnesses helped bring them from Serbia to the US. Ironically, most all of them show up for danced on Saturday nights at the Serbian Orthodox Churches !
If I said I'm not Orthodox I misspoke, I am Orthodox. (Baptised in an OCA church, though I go to a ROCOR church now)
Actually, you said that your parents are not Orthodox, so I incorrectly assumed that you weren't either.
Are you a convert?
So I'm curious what do you say to little Bobby when you're explaining to him he's always going to work as a janitor, he'll always have a small apartment, he'll never get to see the world. (Lukasz: if his father doesn't join to the communist party)
Let's see at least 75% chance some member of my family will be hauled off to a gulag on suspicious of treason if we all decide to protest and not join up. Frankly yes I'd join up. One can join up with something without beleiving it in their heart and to do so to protect their family and livelyhood is a sad but respectable reason and quite distinct from being a member advancing the greater interest of such an evil party.
There's a difference between 'financial stability' (as you call it) and being sent to a gulag. Again you're stupidity astounds.
I am a convert (well not really I wasn't baptized before being baptized into the Orthodx church, I attended Catholic school, my parents are protestants my mom was a quaker and my dad presbyterian, neither particuraly devote when I was growing up.)
Financial stability, we Polish conservatives consider such motivation to be high treason. As NativeRussian explained to you in above mentioned threads, membership in the communist party was not compulsory and he personally never was their member.
Were you born in the US or in Russia?
Polish conservatives my but you baby killing supporting liar. Your kind would as soon open a gulag as vote.
further you entirely lie about my post i said nothing of financial stability i said if the threat was a gulag,, but you lie routinly anyway refusing to acknowledge how your polish friends were helping orchestrate the great famine.
more polish lies ping
"Would you say the same of Russians and ROCOR or MP parishes?
LOL guys dont miss x5452s question wherever he may consider himself as a Russian or not. Hehe He is really funny guy.
x5452, be not afraid, I told you many times that you are more Russian that most of Russian nationalists."
Well, my advice on Putin-lovers, secret-KGB sympathizers, and Leftists is to ignore them. If they can't kill you, they will make your hair turn gray or fall out.
My advice to Soros supporters in east Europe is prepare to meet the babies you supported killing in heaven. Every one Soros kills with his millions for abortion clinics will be waiting at the gates asking you why democracy (in the form of enhanced voter fraud, socialism, and renationionalizing industry) was worth offing them.
Yes EXACTLY and not surprising that FR's own Soros-ite is publishing the Soros propaganda. Let's, as he suggested, ask the Georgians:
"On October 17, the Conservative and Republican parties announced the establishment of a new parliamentary faction composed of former members of the ruling National Movement and former allies of Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili. After the 2003 Rose Revolution both the Conservatives and the Republicans quit the National Movement. Now they seek to protect the gains made by the Rose Revolution through a different mechanism.
On October 3, the nationalist politicians not represented in parliament announced an "Anti-Soros" public movement to repel the spreading ideas of billionaire philanthropist George Soros, which, they claim, "threaten the nation."
The anti-Soros movement confirms the increasing polarization of the already extreme Georgian political spectrum and reveals the ongoing clash of basic values that has become particularly visible since the Rose Revolution. Saakashvili's team has dared to shake the seemingly entrenched, archaic belief systems largely inherited from the Soviet past but identified by segments of Georgian society as "national values."
"I regret that I used a Soros grant," lamented Maia Nikolaishvili, a well-known forensic expert and co-founder of the movement. "Is it possible that Georgian society still has not become aware that Soros is the enemy of Georgia and each of us?" she asked."
Of course, watch all the caterwhauling when it's pointed out that Soros actually PAYS people to pose as "conservatives" to disseminate his message. Some might actually be from foreign countries wanting to influence the American conservative movement for their own gains (HINT - it's happening here on FR).
But good little Catholics in Poland love killing babies of ethnic groups they hate.
Lukas and Lizol get a happy smile every time Soros kills a baby. It's one less non-Pole in their world.
:) You have to ask me?.........you already know.
A) The International Community's wishes
B) The Albanians in Kosovo
C) Serb Patriotism
D) The Overall outcome of the negotiations
WOW!! What a beautiful church!!!! Reminds me of a "pretty" Hagia Sofia in CONSTANTINOPLE!!
The Christians there stand on the brink of annihilation and here you ALL go on and on and nitpick each other about RUSSIA( who cares???)....and about your own agendas(HOW ODD??)... AND HOW SAD!!
I wish you all would show some CONCERN for suffering Christians in KOSOVO!!
From a very old and very concerned person about the fate of CHRISTIANS IN KOSOVO AND OTHER PARTS OF THE ISLAMIC WORLD, lion.
I have read enough of your SEL-SERVING garbage on FR... I am outta here for today!!
Actually every time we begin discussing Kosovo the poles on FR come in and start their usual Russia bashing. I agree that the issue here is taht Al Qaeda stands poised to gain another country and exterminate what Christians they and NATO haven't already killed.
IF Christians in Poland faced the albanian mob and islamics I would be worried for them as I am for the Serbs.
Why bash Russia on a Kosovo thread?? The Poles need a site for JUST themselves to do their own concerns....