Skip to comments.Senate OKs Border Fence, Mulls Citizenship
Posted on 05/17/2006 12:32:49 PM PDT by BenLurkin
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Wait just a minute. The law books call for these individuals to be deported, no exceptions. Tha tis amnesty. W is saying we will create another penalty for them, plus he adds a reward.
Isn't the civics and history test portion of the naturalization process given in English?
Interesting. I haven't time to look up the details but I have a vague recollection of it asking questions a native born HS graduate could not likely answer correctly without study.
To an unfortunate degree I would say yes - But again, "we the people" are just as much to blame - When we allow a flawed system to continue to the point of which we have today....and then we have a man / POTUS looking to systematically and comprehensively address these problems without a doubt pragmatism is going to have to play a role in what can be done (from this point forward).
The notion that we are either going to round up 11 million people or have some new gestapo type police units out there going after businesses (for which many will have simply been duped by false ID cards, etc) is just not reasonable.
Again, the logistics alone (and you and I know logistics in any Operation is the bottom line) simply make the idea of mass deportation foolishness.
Our foolish and flawed temporary workers program helped grow this problem. A sizable portion of those currently here illegally...did not come here illegally as they came via the workers program...and then simply never returned (wrongly so! and thus they are illegal).
I believe GWB is taking a realistic and commonsense approach at how to address this 40 year in the making complex problem. Clearly not every decision made is going to be the "perfect decision" had this be dealt with from the beginning 40 (20) years ago.
It already is.
EXCERPT FROM HERE:
Welcome to the naturalization home page.
Naturalization is the process by which U.S. citizenship is conferred upon a foreign citizen or national after he or she fulfills the requirements established by Congress in the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA).
The general requirements for administrative naturalization include:
a period of continuous residence and physical presence in the United States; residence in a particular USCIS District prior to filing;
an ability to read, write, and speak English;
a knowledge and understanding of U.S. history and government;
good moral character;
attachment to the principles of the U.S. Constitution; and, favorable disposition toward the United States.
If you marched you don't qualify.
:)Easy Does It:)
There is much to debate about this issue without putting words into anyone's mouth. "
I think it is fair to say that the president has gave sufficient reason to believe he feels that way, but is not likely to come right out and say so in those words.
That being said the important point that Tammy8 is making is this. We are short on time, we must stay focused and should not give anyone openings to derail our thinking or the message.
It is better to ignore the debatable stuff, source every point being made, challenge every unsourced opposing comment, and summarize at least one point in every post.
i.e. NO AMNESTY, NO PATH TO CITIZENSHIP THAT STARTS WITH ILLEGAL ENTRY INTO OUR COUNTRY.
ENGLISH ONLY BALLOTS
:)Easy Does It:)
Then it is an empty requirement. Many naturalized citizens do not know English, I know some personally.
This fact just shows the sheople effect on government employees in general. They try to keep the boss happy and stay out of the way.
In this area of responsibility most of management are political appointees and have limited experience.
:)Easy Does It:)
" Furthermore there are always maximum penalties and or penalties on the books that judges see fit to give a lesser degree of punishment (and that still isn't amnesty).
When one gets a speeding ticket and has to pay a hefty fine but is put on probation for 6 months without accruing *points*...is that amnesty? "
No, since that is the normal punishment for such a minor offense. And when one is deported for violating the immigration law, that is not amnesty, but the normal punishment. But if you let violent murderers off that light (fine and probabtion) in violation of sentencing guidelines, it would/should be called amnesty or pardon.
The punishment/cure for illegal immigration is deportation, so letting illegal immigrants become legal without deportation *is* amnesty. Anything other than deportation or jail is a form of amnesty, the punishment is forgone.
1) there is ZERO punishment in the 2006 amnesty provisions. It is voluntary. Nobobdy is forced to get an H2C visa and then get citizenship. No judge makes them do this, its an application they send it.
2) $2000 is far from hefty. It is smaller than the cost of going through a legal H1B visa, when you add up the fees and lawyer costs! Frankly, its little more than a processing fee.
3) This bill is structured exactly like the 1986 bill, which everybody calls amnesty - you are supposed to learn English, you have some residency reqt, you have some work reqt, and you cant be a criminal; oh, and pay some fine/fee. WE DID THIS IN 1986 AND IT WAS CALLED AMNESTY.
4) It's a phony talkping-point of the pro-amnesty side, including Bush, to talk of "automatic path to citizenship" as what amnesty means. Wrong.Even if it didnt have an automatic path to citizenship, it would be amnesty, since it is forgoing the punishment (deportation). Even if we didnt have the social security giveaway, and even if we didnt let them go straight into permanent residency status within 6 years, it would be amnesty.
5) But wait there is more! ... The Senate in a huge giveaway now granted credit for fraulent deposits of Soc Sec taxes to illegal immigrants, meaning this - they pay a small fine of $2000, and get access to - welfare benefits, social security, medicare, etc. $2000 is not a fine, its like a country club or Sams Club membership fee.
The Senate bill loads up a whole bunch of goodies to 'entice' people into legalized status, it goes beyond amnesty, to a huge giveaway/reward for illegals.
So dont call it amensty if you wish - call it Sham-nesty.
"Furthermore the notion that we are going to round up 11 million people and remove / deport them is simply silly."
Yes, it is quite silly of the pro-amnesty crowd to use this strawman, as if the only choices are mass deportation or turning all 11 million into citizens. Ted Kennedy used this phony argument on the Senate, and it was debunked brilliantly by Sen Sessions, will sharea in followup.
And plenty of other smart conservatives would beg to differ with what you posted as well - The notion that good people can't come to differing solutions (in degree) on how best to handle this 40 year in the making problem is just silly (and that is the position, those on your side are trying to take).
The reality is we have a terribly flawed temporary worker program, a border security problem along with both a legal and illegal immigrant problem. These are all 40 (20) year in the making complex problems.
GWB is using commonsense to propose a systematic and comprehensive program at addressing all these issues. All are in need of reform. Waiting and pushing off certain aspects of the currently flawed system makes little sense.
The notion that we can't do this...until this is done (from a segment of the right...is not only foolishness it is simply a new ploy at moving the goal posts).
It resembles the foolish DEMs when it comes to tax-cuts..."we must address the deficit first ...before we can even talk about tax-cuts"....that is complete economic foolishness......Just as is the notion we can't or shouldn't have a comprehensive reform bill passed with regard to legal and illegal immigration along with the currently terribly flawed temp worker program.
You clearly have no memory of past attempts to "comprehensively" fix our immigration problem. Even Reagan was suckered into it. Mark my words, if we have a solution that "comprehensively" grants amnesty while promising to increase border security and enforcement, the ONLY part that will stick will be the amnesty.
And pray tell WHY if this problem is 40 years in the making the sudden need to get it all done in one fell swoop? If we secure the border the pressure to rush into this will immediatly begin to fall. As the inflow stops attrition will start to lower the numbers. That will make it harder for the illegals to "swim in the sea". Itwill lower their promise of growing political clout. It will lower the strain on all our social services. We can actually have a rational debate on who stays and who goes, and what kind of immigration policy we actually desire.
You're wrong -
And pray tell WHY if this problem is 40 years in the making the sudden need to get it all done in one fell swoop?
1. Because it is clearly a problem and this President looks to address problems head on and full (not simply pass things on to the next admin). 2. Because a segment of the base has decided to foolishly hang on the cross of immigration martyrdom -
Lastly the need for reform regarding our currently flawed temporary worker program is terribly needed - A sizable portion of those currently here illegally did not come here from day one "illegally"...they were simply part of a terribly flawed workers program and never left!
Securing the border along with fixing the current temp worker program is needed. There is no reason to do one without the other.
Furthermore making a pragmatic decision on what best to do with those currently here is another decision that might as well get done now...not later.
Lastly if the GOP base foolishly puts the DEMs in control of Congress in Nov over this issue we are worse then the DEM base itself -
Our soldiers off fighting a war deserve better then for us to cut their legs out from underneath them in the middle of this war...by putting into office the anti-American, anti-military, anti-soldier, anti-success in the WOT democrats into office.
06 is not the time for this fight - There are plenty of times to step away from one's party over narrow political reasons...this is certainly not one of those times in our nations history.
Utter balderdash. The vast majority of the 20 million here illegally were illegal from day one.
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