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2002 Document: Request For 500 KG Of SODIUM CYANIDE A Precursor For A Chemical Weapon (Translation)
Pentagon/FMSO website for Iraq Pre-war documents ^ | May 23 2006 | jveritas

Posted on 05/23/2006 7:13:05 PM PDT by jveritas

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To: spunkets

Thanks.


51 posted on 05/23/2006 8:03:14 PM PDT by jveritas (Hate can never win elections.)
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To: MAexile; spunkets; eyespysomething; jveritas
While I've got no idea about what the chemicals could or could not be used for separately or in combination, I'm just curious about this being an order for a military factory. Are there military applications for this stuff that doesn't involve weaponry?
52 posted on 05/23/2006 8:03:36 PM PDT by SittinYonder (Ic ■Št gehate, ■Št ic heonon nelle fleon fotes trym, ac wille fur­or gan,)
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To: SittinYonder

Hylite Bright Zinc Process is used for Cyanide zinc plating per: http://www.metalquip.co.za/products_3.htm

Zinc Cyanide is a plating grade per the same web site.

From another website:

http://www.vulcanium.com/plating/technical_data_detailed.asp?id=217

Cyanide Zinc
Cyanide zinc baths are used for steel and leaded steel substrates. The plating bath consists of zinc metal (1 to 4.5 ounces per gallon), sodium hydroxide (10 to 12 oz/gal) and sodium cyanide (1.5 to 14 oz/gal) with operating temperatures ranging from 60ºF to 110ºF. The pH
for such baths is 12 to 13.
Cyanide zinc is highly poisonous and corrosive to living tissue. As a result, concerns over environmental and occupational safety hazards have forced the plating industry to develop and utilize cyanide-free zinc plating systems.


53 posted on 05/23/2006 8:07:17 PM PDT by eyespysomething (Hellen Keller's favorite color is Chuck Norris.)
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To: jveritas
Thanks jveritas! I was wondering what happened to you.

Glad to have you back at the "translation desk!"

54 posted on 05/23/2006 8:08:41 PM PDT by Just A Nobody (NEVER AGAIN..Support our Troops! I *LOVE* my attitude problem. Beware the Enemedia!)
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To: SittinYonder

I'm sure Krappy Couric will have this as her lead story on the Today Show.


55 posted on 05/23/2006 8:10:07 PM PDT by Westlander (Unleash the Neutron Bomb)
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To: SittinYonder

Reports have indicated that during the Iran-Iraq War in the 1980s, hydrogen cyanide gas may have been used along with other chemical agents against the inhabitants of the Kurdish city of Halabja in northern Iraq.

http://www.bt.cdc.gov/agent/cyanide/basics/facts.asp


56 posted on 05/23/2006 8:11:44 PM PDT by eyespysomething (Hellen Keller's favorite color is Chuck Norris.)
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To: jveritas
I should also mention that mixing NaCN with acid isn't a very effective weapon. You're mostly just flinging acid.

The amount of gas this qty could deliver is only 300lbs. If they're buy chems and using them for weapons some other gas is much easier, cheaper and more effective to use.

57 posted on 05/23/2006 8:12:15 PM PDT by spunkets
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To: jveritas

LOL...no. But cyanide is used for metal processing.


58 posted on 05/23/2006 8:15:14 PM PDT by Gondring (I'll give up my right to die when hell freezes over my dead body!)
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To: JustDoItAlways
"1. Name of material: Nitric Acid. Unit: Liter. Quantity: 600. Origin: Iraqi."

This is the one to watch for. Nerve gasses are just very powerful insecticides. You need oil products like kerosene to get there. NO2- NO3- make them easily absorbed just as nitroglycerin is absorbed by heart patients. NaCN can be mixed with any acid, including acetic acid to create hydrogen cyanide.

59 posted on 05/23/2006 8:16:00 PM PDT by BobS
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To: spunkets

Would it work as cover for buying what they needed? Wouldn't they, if buying as a dual use, have to buy in quantities that matched the purpose the were claiming?

When metal plating is talked about, what would be metal plated? (just curious about that one)


60 posted on 05/23/2006 8:17:48 PM PDT by eyespysomething (Hellen Keller's favorite color is Chuck Norris.)
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To: SittinYonder
"Are there military applications for this stuff that doesn't involve weaponry?"

Vehicle, or other hardware parts. I see some kind of plating here, where the cyanide is used to produce a certain morphology and stress in the layer. The factory's purpose, or product output needs to be clarified. The acid qtys here and other chem qtys look like metal finishing.

61 posted on 05/23/2006 8:18:21 PM PDT by spunkets
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To: jveritas
"Take it easy fellow freeper and do not get angry. I am not saying that I am the smartest person and I am far from it. I just asked you a question, and I may have misunderstood what you said. Relax!"
Your doing your part. Your taking time that you could give to your family, or to yourself to be doing other things.
Regardless of the final analysis on what you come up with via. your translations, you are helping build a english translation database.
You should be proud of your service. For those that are to darn stubborn to understand what you are attempting to do, I would only say give the guy a break. You are a volunter, no one is paying you for this service.
Semper Fi again, Joe. George. PS. Got a new job, and I am not on FR anywhere as much as before. So don't feel obligated to respond. The problem as you and others are aware is chemicals such as mentioned do have many uses in various industrial processes etc..
So it is tough to find a smokeing gun, so to speak.
62 posted on 05/23/2006 8:18:30 PM PDT by Marine_Uncle (Honor must be earned)
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To: jveritas

I doubt if he was. Probably prefers K-1 and Scotts Turf Builder.


63 posted on 05/23/2006 8:18:46 PM PDT by Westlander (Unleash the Neutron Bomb)
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To: jveritas
The incompetence is shocking.

Never underestimate the incompetence of the UN, my FRiend!

64 posted on 05/23/2006 8:21:04 PM PDT by Just A Nobody (NEVER AGAIN..Support our Troops! I *LOVE* my attitude problem. Beware the Enemedia!)
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To: Marine_Uncle

Thank you for the kind words :)


65 posted on 05/23/2006 8:21:31 PM PDT by jveritas (Hate can never win elections.)
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To: Justanobody

I am glad that I am back :)


66 posted on 05/23/2006 8:22:18 PM PDT by jveritas (Hate can never win elections.)
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To: eyespysomething

500kg looks like an exact number for the zinc baths you've given in your post. They are specialized baths for a certain morphology and stress in the plated layer. This is too small a qty for chem weapons. It's very inefficient and if the attempt was made for binary weapons, all it would amount to is flinging acid.


67 posted on 05/23/2006 8:23:14 PM PDT by spunkets
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To: jveritas
"Thank you for the kind words :)"
Thanks for your service.
68 posted on 05/23/2006 8:25:08 PM PDT by Marine_Uncle (Honor must be earned)
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To: spunkets
One thing I know for certain from all my years in Chemistry, is that just about anything can be misused. You can walk into a pharmaceutical lab and make a bomb. Without too much effort I might add. It all depends on your intent.

So what do we think they were trying to do? Put a zinc coating on some metal parts, or produce some cylinders of cyanide for Al Qaeda?
69 posted on 05/23/2006 8:29:47 PM PDT by MAexile (Bats left, votes right)
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To: MAexile

I think they were plating. If they were making gas, there are far better choices. Also, the qty is wrong, especially given the other items.


70 posted on 05/23/2006 8:36:06 PM PDT by spunkets
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To: jveritas

Jveritas -- doing the research American journalists don't want to do.


71 posted on 05/23/2006 8:36:11 PM PDT by Theo
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To: spunkets; eyespysomething; jveritas

I tried to google the factory and got several possibilities besides the spelling provided by jveritas: Zu al Fikar; Zu al Fikr; Du al Fikar; and Dhu al Fikar would be alternatives. I'm still at work and can't take the time to really find something.

However, according to Global Security.org, the Rashid State Company's Dhu-al-Fikar factory (assuming it's the same one) was investigated for the presence of high strength aluminum tubes. Then it says this:

"Approximately 70,000 high-strength aluminum 81-mm tubes are located in two padlocked ware- houses (see pictures) at Dhu al-Fiqar Factory, which is within a secure facility protected by armed Facility Protection Service personnel. According to a current NMD offi cial, Dhu al-Fiqar Factory employees were cutting the tubes into pieces for use in the private sector."


72 posted on 05/23/2006 8:38:11 PM PDT by SittinYonder (Ic ■Št gehate, ■Št ic heonon nelle fleon fotes trym, ac wille fur­or gan,)
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To: SittinYonder; jveritas; eyespysomething; Marine_Uncle; NormsRevenge; Grampa Dave; Captain Ed
The Quantity is rather high for use in Lab experimentation....I would think...

What was the chemical in the drums that we kept finding as we were rolling into Baghdad...?

73 posted on 05/23/2006 8:40:24 PM PDT by Ernest_at_the_Beach (History is soon Forgotten,)
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To: airedale

By the same token, the cyanide radical complexes with the heavy metals and is often used in electroplating of the metal, particularly gold. It is (or was) common in printed-circuit manufacturing processes.


74 posted on 05/23/2006 8:40:49 PM PDT by omni-scientist
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To: SittinYonder; spunkets

Would they have to plate the tubes to use for a missile, or for uranium enrichment?


75 posted on 05/23/2006 8:40:52 PM PDT by eyespysomething (Hellen Keller's favorite color is Chuck Norris.)
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To: spunkets
I think I need to sleep on this. I do my best thinking when I'm asleep.
In fact I might ask some other Chemists what they think tomorrow. Someone might come up with something else.
76 posted on 05/23/2006 8:44:59 PM PDT by MAexile (Bats left, votes right)
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
"The Quantity is rather high for use in Lab experimentation....I would think..."

A factory isn't a lab op. The plating tanks are 2K gals and up.

" What was the chemical in the drums that we kept finding as we were rolling into Baghdad...?"

All I remember is pesticide for sand fleas. DOD determined that's what it was for.

77 posted on 05/23/2006 8:45:24 PM PDT by spunkets
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To: SittinYonder

That is the same company.


78 posted on 05/23/2006 8:45:47 PM PDT by jveritas (Hate can never win elections.)
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To: jveritas

Ramzi Yousef used sodium cyanide in the WTC bombing, it was supposed to create a cyanide cloud big enough to kill 20 to 40,000 New Yorkers.


79 posted on 05/23/2006 8:47:06 PM PDT by usmcobra (Marines out of uniform might as well be nude, since they can no longer be recognized as Marines.)
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To: eyespysomething
"Would they have to plate the tubes to use for a missile, or for uranium enrichment?"

No. This is for corroison protection purposes, or maybe bearing surfaces if it's not a zinc bath.

80 posted on 05/23/2006 8:48:56 PM PDT by spunkets
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To: usmcobra
Did he put it in the car bomb he used in the terrorist attack? By itself Sodium Cyanide is not a weapon however when used with acid it can produce Hydrogen Cyanide which can be very deadly.
81 posted on 05/23/2006 8:50:50 PM PDT by jveritas (Hate can never win elections.)
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To: jveritas

Good to see you back.!

Anything special about the group issuing the memo,...?


82 posted on 05/23/2006 8:53:25 PM PDT by Ernest_at_the_Beach (History is soon Forgotten,)
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To: jveritas
1,200 pounds of urea nitrate with a nitroglycerine trigger, booster chemicals, sulfuric acid and sodium cyanide. That's The mix I'm reading here.
83 posted on 05/23/2006 8:54:45 PM PDT by usmcobra (Marines out of uniform might as well be nude, since they can no longer be recognized as Marines.)
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To: eyespysomething; SittinYonder; jveritas

The only chemical that would be used to put a coating on the Al missile tubes would be the sulfuric acid to put an anodized coating on it. Plating Al would require an electroless bath and I don't see the chems for that. Organic solvents for aprotic baths either.


84 posted on 05/23/2006 9:00:00 PM PDT by spunkets
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To: jveritas
Side note here:

The Iraqi Documents: A Glimpse Into the Regime of Saddam Hussein - 4/6/2006 media files of hearing

***********************************************

2 hour video --fyi

About an hour and 30 or 40 minutes into this there is some detail about how documents get into the Harmony database and documents that they can recognize as forged are not put into the database....the documents that are being made available to the public are a subset of that ....I think...based on what I heard......need more freepers to listen to the webcast ....be patient....there is some very careful dancing being done....

Berman of California is questioning whether the documents should be released because.....well just listen.....

85 posted on 05/23/2006 9:05:38 PM PDT by Ernest_at_the_Beach (History is soon Forgotten,)
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To: jveritas

ping


86 posted on 05/23/2006 9:06:42 PM PDT by Kay
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To: jveritas

You took the words right out of my mouth... this one is interesting...


87 posted on 05/23/2006 9:21:15 PM PDT by bnelson44 (Proud parent of a tanker! (Charlie Mike, son))
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To: Born to Conserve; jveritas; eyespysomething; SittinYonder
"This list of compounds is not, in itself, suspicious."

This excerpt from Colin Powells speech makes it sound suspicious.

"After we swept al-Qaida from Afghanistan, some of those members accepted this safe haven. They remain there today."

"Zakawi's activities are not confined to this small corner of northeast Iraq. He traveled to Baghdad in May of 2002 for medical treatment, staying in the capital of Iraq for two months while he recuperated to fight another day."

"During his stay, nearly two dozen extremists converged on Baghdad and established a base of operations there. These al-Qaida affiliates based in Baghdad now coordinate the movement of people, money and supplies into and throughout Iraq for his network, and they have now been operating freely in the capital for more than eight months."

"Iraqi officials deny accusations of ties with al-Qaida. These denials are simply not credible. Last year, an al-Qaida associate bragged that the situation in Iraq was "good," that Baghdad could be transited quickly."

"We know these affiliates are connected to Zakawi because they remain, even today, in regular contact with his direct subordinates, include the poison cell plotters. And they are involved in moving more than money and materiel. Last year, two suspected al-Qaida operatives were arrested crossing from Iraq into Saudi Arabia. They were linked to associates of the Baghdad cell and one of them received training in Afghanistan on how to use cyanide."

Remarks to the United Nations Security Council (Colin Powell)

Lots of pictures that Colin Powell used in his speech on this site.

88 posted on 05/23/2006 9:44:57 PM PDT by Spunky ("Everyone has a freedom of choice, but not of consequences.")
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To: Spunky

Interesting. If these documents never prove anything beyond what they've already showed us, they certainly give one the understanding of why our intelligence thought the WMD would be a "slam dunk" (as Tenet put it, IIRC).


89 posted on 05/23/2006 9:52:09 PM PDT by SittinYonder (Ic ■Št gehate, ■Št ic heonon nelle fleon fotes trym, ac wille fur­or gan,)
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To: jveritas

I thank you for all of your work.


90 posted on 05/23/2006 11:00:48 PM PDT by nw_arizona_granny (WAKE UP AMERICA DAY IS MAY 1st, 2006. WATCH WHO MARCHES YOUR ROADS IN VICTORY!!!!!!!!!)
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To: jveritas; P-Marlowe; jude24; OrthodoxPresbyterian; 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub; Thunder 6; LTCJ; ...

Again, this is extremely significant, jveritas. Your work is of inestimable value.

I have long been an advocate of Saddam's "just-in-time" WMD capability.

With the recipe already in hand this document proves how readily available WMDs were for either "on-site" or "near-site" mixing.

The media (MSM) will NEVER admit that the presence of precursors equals the presence of WMDs.

The fact that these are on the same government document is extremely telling. If we knew the recipe, it would be instructive to know which quantities of which precursor is necessary to produce which WMD. 1200 pounds of sodium cyanide, 30000 pounds of sulfuric and 15000 pounds of hydrochloric is the ratio.

Is there enough of each item present to produce a weapon(s)? One would certainly think so.


91 posted on 05/23/2006 11:11:36 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It. Supporting our Troops Means Praying for them to Win!)
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To: jveritas
It's not used in mining it's used in processing the ore. It's a dual use chemical. It probably has more uses as well. They do have some gold and other precocious metal deposits from: http://www.rockroost.com/news-rockroost-report-Iraq.shtml

The natural resources of Iraq are primarily mineral. The country is well endowed with petroleum and natural gas. Petroleum is the most important natural resource of Iraq. The country is estimated to have about 10 percent of the world's supply of proved petroleum reserves. The oil fields are located in two main regions: in the north-central part of the country, near Kirkuk and Mosul, and in the southeast part of the country, just inland from the Persian Gulf, near Ar Rumaylah. There are also small deposits of various other minerals that include ores of copper, gold, iron, lead, silver, platinum, and zinc. Gypsum, salt and sulfur are fairly abundant, and seams of brown coal are numerous.

For other uses see:http://www.npi.gov.au/database/substance-info/profiles/29.html#common

Cyanide salts are mainly used in electroplating, metallurgy, the production of orgainc chemicals (acrylonitrile, methyl methacrylate, adiponitrile), photographic development, the extraction of gold and silver from ores, tanning leather and in the making of plastics and fibres. They are also used to manufacture fumigation chemicals, insecticides and rodenticides.

See also: http://www.pacia.org.au/_uploaditems/docs/3.sodium_cyanide.pdf

and http://www.pacia.org.au/_uploaditems/docs/3.sodium_cyanide.pdf Where it's used as a pesticide

I agree with you that it probably didn't have a benign use.
92 posted on 05/24/2006 12:05:45 AM PDT by airedale ( XZ)
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To: omni-scientist

There are other uses including pesticides, but that's still a heck of a lot of the stuff for benign uses.


93 posted on 05/24/2006 12:07:26 AM PDT by airedale ( XZ)
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To: jveritas
I'm sure the MSM will point out that these ingredients can be used in the manufacture of baby milk.
94 posted on 05/24/2006 1:34:10 AM PDT by NavVet (O)
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To: MAexile

Chrome plating uses sodium cyanide. In this case, I find no smoking gun quality to this list of chemicals. I once worked for a company and they had a 55 gal. drum of sodium cyanide just sitting around in a small storage room with no special protection.


95 posted on 05/24/2006 1:34:26 AM PDT by Socratic ("I'll have the roast duck with the mango salsa.")
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To: Socratic
"Chrome plating uses sodium cyanide."

No. Cyanide's incompatable with all chrome plating solutions. You'll generate toxic gas and the chromate will reduce the cyanide.

96 posted on 05/24/2006 1:39:02 AM PDT by spunkets
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To: NavVet
"the MSM will point out that these ingredients can be used in the manufacture of baby milk."

It looks like this is a simple metal finishing industrial op, nothing more. Probably for mil equipment, but not chem weapons, or WMDs.

97 posted on 05/24/2006 1:43:47 AM PDT by spunkets
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To: Doctor Stochastic

I think it is used in electroplating as well.


98 posted on 05/24/2006 2:29:40 AM PDT by Szent_Adam_Kiraly ("google maps is the best! " "true that, Double true!")
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To: spunkets
Cyanide's incompatable with all chrome plating solutions.

The chrome plating process is generally done by not plating directly to the metal base, but by first laying down an intermediate substrate which uses cyanide in it's plating process. Any plating facility which was not specifically using non-cyanide alternatives to reduce pollution and worker exposure would have large amounts of sodium or potassium cyanide around.

99 posted on 05/24/2006 2:32:54 AM PDT by Socratic ("I'll have the roast duck with the mango salsa.")
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To: jveritas; Mo1; Howlin; Peach; BeforeISleep; kimmie7; 4integrity; BigSkyFreeper; RandallFlagg; ...

^^^^^^^^ The MSM's take on this.

100 posted on 05/24/2006 3:49:09 AM PDT by OXENinFLA
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