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U.N. "Disarming" Iraq from WMD while allowing them WMD???
U.N. Export List to Iraq ^ | May 28, 2006 | avacado

Posted on 05/28/2006 6:59:14 AM PDT by avacado

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To: avacado
...it is not considered a significant product of PVC combustion."

Allow me to ruin your day, even more: I worked seven years as a project engineer in the PVC industry. We had to take special provisions to preclude exposure to phosgene (not to mention VCM). With the tons of PVC available in packaging alone, the Iraqis could have obtained enough to create weapons. The chlorinated hydrocarbons in PVC and pesticides in any country with industry and agricultural as significant as Iraq is sufficient to produce enough phosgene to do serious damage.

51 posted on 05/28/2006 9:28:12 PM PDT by Carry_Okie (There are people in power who are truly evil.)
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To: avacado
Here, let me give you a few pointers since you're a newbie and appear to have stepped in it pretty bad.

Don't come on here with all that attitude. You're a newbie. You're still under review.

Be polite. Don't presume to tell others what to do. We'll just laugh at you.

Develop a sense of humor.

Develop a sense of humility. If you were unclear in a post and people call you on it, this is where you can use both the sense of humor and the sense of humility.

You'll get along a lot better here if you'll just follow those simple guidelines.

52 posted on 05/28/2006 9:50:12 PM PDT by Allegra (Thread Hijacker Extraordinaire)
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To: Allegra
--- Here, let me give you a few pointers since you're a newbie and appear to have stepped in it pretty bad. Don't come on here with all that attitude. You're a newbie. You're still under review. ---

I have news for you. It was you who could not understand the context of my original post and it was you who made false assumptions about my original post. I simply tried to correct you. And I have further news for you, I am not trying to earn any secret decoder ring from you. If you need to ban me, then do it. You should be apologizing to me for being flat out rude and for ruining a thread to which you obviously had no interest.

Have a nice day and don't fall too hard getting off that high horse of yours.

53 posted on 05/29/2006 5:08:25 AM PDT by avacado
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To: Carry_Okie
...it is not considered a significant product of PVC combustion."

Allow me to ruin your day, even more:

Allow me to further ruin your day, as you say. Show me a paper that documents these significant quantities of phosgene which can be generated from burning PVC that would be in such quantities as to be considered large scale enough for a full blown chemical weapons program. Lets see some numbers. You have real data, and not anecdotes to back up your claim, right?

54 posted on 05/29/2006 5:28:37 AM PDT by avacado
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To: avacado
I just love it when pleasant, well-mannered people like you join FR. You make it what it is today. And you earn exactly the welcome you get.

Have a lovely day.

And lighten up a little.

55 posted on 05/29/2006 5:49:32 AM PDT by Allegra (Thread Hijacker Extraordinaire)
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To: avacado; MikefromOhio
a thread to which you obviously had no interest.

Yeah, you're right. I've got no interest whatsoever with anything to do with Iraq.

Better check your facts, ma'am before you go shooting off. ;-)

56 posted on 05/29/2006 5:52:01 AM PDT by Allegra (Thread Hijacker Extraordinaire)
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To: Allegra
--- I just love it when pleasant, well-mannered people like you join FR. You make it what it is today. And you earn exactly the welcome you get. ---

First, I return like in kind and you have been rude from the start and completly ruined a thread you had no interest in. Second, I was warmly welcomed to FR sometime ago so spare me your high horse routine, once again.

57 posted on 05/29/2006 5:53:56 AM PDT by avacado
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To: jveritas; Avocado
If PVC burning will produce any significant doze of Phosgene, thousands of people will die every day.

Most PVC in industrialized countries is landfilled or recycled, not burned, primarily because of dioxin but also because it evolves hydrogen cyanide. Nor do the people who do burn tons of PVC optimize their process to produce phosgene (it is primarily derived from the VCM residue in the PVC). One would think they do the opposite, where it's permitted to burn it at all. Burn it at low temperature (a process quantitative decomposition) in an oxygen deficient atmosphere and you can then fraction off the phosgene by gravity (it's two and a half times the density of air, so it sinks).

Note: the process yields quite a bit more hydrogen cyanide than it does phosgene. So there's another hole in avocado's tacit assertion that import controls would preclude production of chemical munitions.

Worse for your fear mongering is that phosgene is a lousy chemical munition. It falls to the ground and then disperses. That worked trench warfare, but would be far less effective under other circumstances.

A typical combustion of PVC yields about 1ppm phosgene which quickly dilutes to far less than that under normal circumstances, hence jveritas' comment that people burning trash don't die isn't terribly meaningful. You don't need a lot to produce a fatal dose, typically 0.1ppm (about 150ug/m3). Given the adversely-optimized yield mentioned above, if you burn a ton of chlorinated plastics, you get about 1gm phosgene, enough to render about 6,000 cubic meters with a fatal dose.

How hard is it to get a ton of chlorinated plastic?

The point is this: if you really want phosgene, combustion of any chlorinated hydrocarbon will do; freon from refrigerators will suffice. It's an important constituent for processing pesticides, herbicides, and plastics which are all part of an industrial economy. It's easy to produce and makes a lousy gas for chemical munitions, but hey, if it fits your fear mongering, go for it.

58 posted on 05/29/2006 8:14:02 AM PDT by Carry_Okie (There are people in power who are truly evil.)
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To: avacado; Allegra
a thread to which you obviously had no interest.

Step and twist on it much noob?
59 posted on 05/29/2006 8:58:38 AM PDT by MikefromOhio (aka MikeinIraq)
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To: Carry_Okie
--- The point is this: if you really want phosgene, combustion of any chlorinated hydrocarbon will do; freon from refrigerators will suffice. ---

Actually the point is that the yields that you posted are very low and why give Saddam straight phosgene -- a known chemcial used as a chemical weapon? At least make him work for it.

But thanks for the post and the information. It was interesting information.

60 posted on 05/29/2006 9:34:14 AM PDT by avacado
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To: Carry_Okie
--- The point is this: if you really want phosgene, combustion of any chlorinated hydrocarbon will do; freon from refrigerators will suffice. ---

Actually the point is that the yields that you posted are very low and why give Saddam straight phosgene -- a known chemcial used as a chemical weapon? At least make him work for it.

But thanks for the post and the information. It was interesting information.

61 posted on 05/29/2006 9:34:19 AM PDT by avacado
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To: avacado
Actually the point is that the yields that you posted are very low and why give Saddam straight phosgene -- a known chemcial used as a chemical weapon?

If it has low value as a munition, if other chemicals with the potential for weapons (such as hydrogen cyanide) are easier to produce, if it is a necessary component of the chemical and agricultural industries that existed in Iraq before the war, if it is easy to produce, and if it is a waste of your resources to trace the stuff through the economy because it is easier to detect and track munitions, then it is no big deal to let him buy the stuff and keep your focus where it belongs.

62 posted on 05/29/2006 10:09:38 AM PDT by Carry_Okie (There are people in power who are truly evil.)
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To: Carry_Okie
--- and if it is a waste of your resources to trace the stuff through the economy because it is easier to detect and track munitions, then it is no big deal to let him buy the stuff and keep your focus where it belongs. ---

Given that point, which is quite valid, then why even bother with inspections when Saddam could have anything he wanted ready to "mix" on a moments notice. It seems the inspections were just a futile exercise of appeasement for the world.

63 posted on 05/29/2006 10:33:11 AM PDT by avacado
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To: avacado
Given that point, which is quite valid, then why even bother with inspections when Saddam could have anything he wanted ready to "mix" on a moments notice. It seems the inspections were just a futile exercise of appeasement for the world.

On this we agree. David Kay insisted that Saddam was more dangerous after UNSCOM than before, simply because he had shifted his capabilities to commercial equipment that was rapidly convertable to weapons production, particularly as regards biological weapons. He was planning to ramp up as soon as the inspectors left and no longer needed large stocks of inventory.

Just in time bioterror.

64 posted on 05/29/2006 10:42:26 AM PDT by Carry_Okie (There are people in power who are truly evil.)
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To: Carry_Okie
--- He was planning to ramp up as soon as the inspectors left and no longer needed large stocks of inventory.

Just in time bioterror. ---

That reminds of of Michael Dell of Dell Computers and his business model which has proven to be very successful. Dell was able to beat computer giants such as IBM and Compaq Computers by keeping very little inventory while the other computer manufacturers keep large inventories. This way Dell was never left with obsolete inventory and could move on new trends and technologies very quickly.

It also explains why every intelligence agency of the permanent members of the UNSC also said Saddam possessed WMD. Saddam had, and was continuing to purchase, all of the equipment and chemicals necessary for production. Take a look at the BND (German Intelligence) assessment of Saddam's weapons programs both in 1994 and again in 2001.

"Germany's leading role in arming Iraq"

Expurgated portions of Iraq's December 7 report to the UN Security Council show that German firms made up the bulk of suppliers for Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs.

Contiued: http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/EB05Ak02.html

65 posted on 05/30/2006 4:50:15 AM PDT by avacado
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To: avacado
That reminds of of Michael Dell of Dell Computers and his business model...

JIT started with Toyota.

It also explains why every intelligence agency of the permanent members of the UNSC also said Saddam possessed WMD.

Precisely my point, which was about keeping your eyes on the output, because the dual use nature of the production system makes trying to control inputs an exercise in futility. I hope you now understand that I was in no way apologizing for either the UN or Saddam. It was strictly a matter of technical practicality.

Bioterror has a malevolent future. With Cuba willing to help anyone who wishes to attack the US, terrorists have all the technical capability they need. My ultimate fear is using FARC, the Bolivians, or some other communist drug gang to salt a series of pathogens into cocaine or heroin. Between coctail druggies and hookers, the dispersal would be very fast, nor would any amount of fear get the users to quit.

66 posted on 05/30/2006 7:45:06 AM PDT by Carry_Okie (There are people in power who are truly evil.)
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To: Allegra
Oh for crying out loud...

Get off his back
Any idiot that would have bothered to click the damn link he provided would have seen the date of the document.

Instead we have a bunch of lazy people busy being know it alls giving him a bunch crap cause he inadvertently made them feel stupid.

And then, , he had the nerve to defend himself...I've seen this crap all too often around here, you'd think you were trying to make this into DU or something

TO AVACADO...GOOD EYE. I agree, they should not have been allowed duel use chemicals (in hindsight). They should have been made to buy those products already prepared. If oyu ask me, the allowed the purchases so Saddam could covertly make WMD and still have an excuse ready-made and provided by Hans Blix and team should a US inspector object or question them.

67 posted on 06/12/2006 4:06:39 AM PDT by Khepri (ETHEREAL TAGLINE)
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To: Khepri
I didn't read past your first few words because I could see that you were just another rude jerk. You people are a dime a dozen.

I'm tired of you people and do not have time to interact with you insecure types or play your silly games.

Bugger off, troll, and next time you want to try to stir up trouble, pick a thread that's a little more current.

68 posted on 06/12/2006 4:20:06 AM PDT by Allegra (Mookie Sadr's Next!)
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To: Allegra
Rude jerk? You're the one jumping on people's cases. Look in the mirror.

The rest of your comment is incoherent.

69 posted on 06/12/2006 6:23:38 AM PDT by Khepri (ETHEREAL TAGLINE)
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To: Khepri; MikefromOhio
Take a big helping of STFU, please, troll.

Just because you and your little friend are lacking any sense of humor due to your arrested development is no reason for you to take it out on people you don't even know.

I happen to be considered a very nice, easygoing person by people who know me. But I am also known for not taking any crap from some idiot who just wants to come on here and try to act tough.

You came on here and got nasty. You were not provoked. So don't go whining when you get what you asked for.

Now run along and leave me alone. I have loftier concerns in my life than dealing with little trolls who try in vain to nip at my heels.

70 posted on 06/12/2006 6:34:05 AM PDT by Allegra (Mookie Sadr's Next!)
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To: Allegra
Take a big helping of STFU, please, troll.

What part of you attacking him don't you get?

If you call jumping his case "humor" you got a problem.

LOL...take off. And lay off the newbies...friggin bully.

We're supposed to be on the same side here, you wanna jump someone *&^%$ why don't you go find some libs? Get a clue.

71 posted on 06/12/2006 6:52:46 AM PDT by Khepri (ETHEREAL TAGLINE)
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To: Khepri
What part of STFU do you not understand? You're not the sharpest knife in the drawer, are you?

Stop your whining and go do something productive.

You started this with an attack out of nowhere and then you call me a bully just because I'm not intimidated by your rudeness.

You're just a loser with a bone to pick. Go find one somewhere else. You've really become quite tiresome.

72 posted on 06/12/2006 8:33:18 AM PDT by Allegra (Mookie Sadr's Next!)
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To: Allegra
Are you freakin dea or stupid...LAY OFF THE NEWBIE

Stop crying because somebody is calling you on it.

Stop accusing me of what you are guilty of yourself.

If I'm so damn tiresome why do you keep answering?

73 posted on 06/12/2006 4:30:57 PM PDT by Khepri (ETHEREAL TAGLINE)
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To: Khepri
Stop posting to me, assclown. Read your FReepmail and if you don't comply with my directive, I will lodge a complaint against you.

Back off. NOW. And I mean it.

74 posted on 06/12/2006 10:57:55 PM PDT by Allegra (Mookie Sadr's Next!)
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To: Allegra
Go ahead and lodge a comlaint. Your guilt in the matter is there for all to see.

Have a nice day...;)

75 posted on 06/13/2006 8:58:13 AM PDT by Khepri (ETHEREAL TAGLINE)
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To: Khepri
Re: U.N. "Disarming" Iraq from WMD while allowing them WMD???
From Allegra | 06/13/2006 1:54:03 AM EDT new

Post to me again, loser and I'll hit the Abuse button. I don't know who you think you're talking to, but you need to learn to respect your intellectual superiors.

You started this - posting to me on an old thread out of the blue with your nastiness. I've run into your kind before. I suspect you're one of these old farts who feels a sense of inadequacy about his life and wants to attack someone who actually HAS a life.

Then when your childish tactics fail to intimidate your subject, you cry and whine and get even nastier like the maladjusted person you are.

Find someone else, assclown. I'm sick of you losers trying to bring people down to your level. It won't work with me and you're wasting your time trying.

Don't post to me again, creep. You disgust me.
Hit the abuse button, I invite you. I'm glad you think so highly of yourself because I for one surely do not.

Stop pretending like you did not jump on the newbies case for an inadvertent headline and having the nerve to stick up for himself.

From reading over this thread I would suggest to you that you are describing yourself. Now be a MAN and either fess up to it and drop it. I wll tell you that I will not stand by and watch self-important FReepers bully newbies. In the end it really is your choice. Have a great day.

76 posted on 06/13/2006 9:06:05 AM PDT by Khepri (ETHEREAL TAGLINE)
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To: avacado

You did good work here. Thanks for posting it.


77 posted on 06/18/2006 11:08:01 PM PDT by TigersEye (Intellectuals only exist if you think they do.)
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To: Khepri; Allegra
Khepri,

Thanks for watching my back. I appreciate that. I just revisited the posts in this thread this morning and had not been aware of the disagreement between you two.

I am not sure how things got off track with my original post because I have never seen the UN's Goods Review List (GRL) for Iraq ever posted here nor have I seen it discussed. If it has then I could not find it in a search.

Anyway, I don't hold any toward Allegra for the remarks. I was hoping for a more positive discussion on the subject but that never materialized. The Goods Review List at least has been posted here and has been archived for those looking for such matters.

No worries.
78 posted on 06/19/2006 5:24:23 AM PDT by avacado
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To: TigersEye

Thanks!


79 posted on 06/19/2006 5:28:35 AM PDT by avacado
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To: Baynative
Ever hear of dual purposes chemicals. Yes, your right but did you know that Iraq was also importing Thioglycolates. They are sulfur based compounds that are used in the dyes industry but also precursors for things like mustard gas, sarin etc.
The chemicals mentioned in the article and thioglycotlates were on the banned list to Iraq as far back as the late 80's.
Guess the "Food for Oil Program" just got out of hand.
80 posted on 06/19/2006 5:36:55 AM PDT by Doc91678 (Doc91678)
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