IRA were behind 58pc of Troubles

Belfast Today ^ | 30 May 2006 | Not stated

[Irish_Thatcherite]

IRA were behind 48pc of Troubles murders A UNIVERSITY of Ulster academic yesterday blamed the IRA for the overwhelming majority of murders during the Troubles.

Henry Patterson, Professor of History at Jordanstown, challenged the view that the Northern Ireland conflict was a simple "war of liberation" by republicans against colonial interests and said there were key differences between the Troubles in Northern Ireland and struggles in Africa and Latin America. He told the sixth International Conference of The Spanish Association for Irish Studies at the University of Valladolid in Spain that the Provisional IRA was responsible for 48 per cent of deaths while the RUC was responsible for just 1.4 per cent and the UDR 0.2 per cent.

Mr Patterson pointed out that even if claims of widespread collusion between state forces and loyalist paramilitaries were true and 50 per cent of those killed by loyalists were added to the security forces' figure, it would still amount to only 17 per cent of all deaths.

In an address entitled War of National Liberation or Ethnic Cleansing: IRA violence in Fermanagh during the Troubles, Prof Patterson examined the IRA campaign in the county. Prof Patterson recalled how the IRA in Fermanagh had carried out a number of widely-condemned killings including the Enniskillen Poppy Day bombing, and said many unionists believed the campaign in the county was a form of ethnic cleansing.

"No doubt many Provisionals then and now would sincerely and forcefully deny that their campaign in Fermanagh was a form of ethnic cleansing," he said. "As we have seen, most of the Protestants killed were in the security forces, and Fermanagh did not experience the wholesale evacuation of Protestants that occurred in West Cork during the War of Independence. "Yet, that the killings struck at the Protestant community's morale, sense of security and belonging in the area was undeniable. "It was being made clear to them that they could continue to live in Fermanagh, but only on terms defined by the Provisional IRA." Prof Patterson said the conflicting views of the Troubles – was it a war of liberation or ethnic cleansing? – has been one of the reasons for the unease with the peace process among the unionist community. 30 May 2006

[Irish_Thatcherite]

Some people around here seem to think the IRA are the good guys - think again fools!

[Irish_Thatcherite]

Will the pro-IRA fools admit they are wrong?

[wideawake]

You don't understand - all those murders were committed by renegade splinter groups of the IRA or by Protestant paramilitaries killing their own demographic just to make the IRA look bad.

The actual IRA is an organization dedicated primarily to handing out free pieces of teacake at garden parties.

[Harmless Teddy Bear]

You forgot to add that the tea parties are to raise funds for the bandaging of boo boos on the widdle paws of cute puppies.

[Irish_Thatcherite]

LOL!!

[Daniel Wroe]

Indeed. I'd like to hope this has some influence on the British government's attitude towards IRA/Sinn Fein, but with Peter 'Britain's presence in the north continues to be the main obstacle to the solution to the problem' Hain in office, even hope is too optimistic.

[canuck_conservative]

The IRA are gangsters.

And like all gangsters, they only way they command respect is thru pure, naked fear.

They offer no hope, just threats and misery. They're scum.

[Irish_Thatcherite]

And a bird watching expedition to Colombia....

[Irish_Thatcherite]

True.

[Irish_Thatcherite]

Blair successive NIO appointments have been one big disaster over another - his strategy is to appease the IRA inorder to keep the bombs out of Britain, with little regard of the consequences for Ireland, both north and south.

[Siena Dreaming]

A sidelight of Pres. Bush's WOT has been the weakening of the IRA.

Many of IRA's justifications for terror just don't work now that they are seen to be identical in some respects to those used by Muslim terrorists. I sensed this would happen only a couple days after 9/11.

Another victory in the WOT is that over the IRA IMHO.

[Irish_Thatcherite]

Actually, I think the IRA have merely switched tactics - the ceasefire was simply a tactical retreat in order to galvinise electoral support of it's front organisation in both NI and the Republic - basically they are concentrating on their second agenda - a socialist dictatorship.

Irish democracy is in for turbulent times.

[Harmless Teddy Bear]

They were looking for the church nesting boom-boom bird. < /bitter sarcasm>

[Irish_Thatcherite]

Yes, and 117 people died in the process. :(

[jordan8]

An obviously pro-Unionist study that adds little to the known facts, but simply tries to apply the phrase "ethnic cleansing" to the troubles in Fermanagh, and not very convincingly. As the authors themselves point out, Protestants were basically unmolested ion Fermanagh if they weren't a part of the security forces. It leaves out the close collusion between the Protestant population of Fermanagh and the security forces and given the bitterness of such conflicts a far better case can be made that the IRA and Republicans showed remarkable restraint there. Certainly nothing ever happened to the Protestant population of Fermanagh that was anything near as bad as what happened to Catholics in many parts of Northern Ireland, esp. Belfast. It should also be pointed out that the majority of those killed during the "Troubles" by Republicans were members of the security forces, while the majority of those killed by loyalists were civilians, often targeted for no other reason than suspicion of being Catholic, a bit of context for this study.

[Irish_Thatcherite]

An obviously pro-Unionist study that adds little to the known facts, but simply tries to apply the phrase "ethnic cleansing" to the troubles in Fermanagh, and not very convincingly. As the authors themselves point out, Protestants were basically unmolested ion Fermanagh if they weren't a part of the security forces. It leaves out the close collusion between the Protestant population of Fermanagh and the security forces and given the bitterness of such conflicts a far better case can be made that the IRA and Republicans showed remarkable restraint there. Certainly nothing ever happened to the Protestant population of Fermanagh that was anything near as bad as what happened to Catholics in many parts of Northern Ireland, esp. Belfast. It should also be pointed out that the majority of those killed during the "Troubles" by Republicans were members of the security forces, while the majority of those killed by loyalists were civilians, often targeted for no other reason than suspicion of being Catholic, a bit of context for this study.

Another IRA apologist. I actually live in Ireland, I know what the IRA are, so spare me the lecture.. geez you IRA sympathizers twist everything to suit your screwed up view of Irish affairs.

[Theoden]

I was raised to dislike the British and to sympathize with the IRA. I now like the British and view them as good friends of the US, and I disapprove of the IRA splinter groups and their tactics. I also dislike the views and policies of Sinn Fein. So, yes, the IRA IS a terrorist organization.

I know the history of Ireland, and I know the IRA and Sinn Fein were once the good guys under Michael Collins, and that the conflict has since lost it's religious foundation. That is a long time ago now. The only point I agree with the IRA now is the reunification of Ireland. I don't care if people in the Republic do not want it for socioeconomic reasons. Ireland should be whole.

I am glad the IRA announced it's end to armed conflict (at least in gesture). I only wish the Unionsts and other "Orange" factions would do the same. I absolutely hate Paisley and his son.

I do have a problem with what Ireland is becoming. The Republic is becoming too wealthy too fast, and the people are starting to lose their identity, and the characteristics that made the Irish people great. The people have been becoming less friendly over the years, are becoming more materialistic, more secular, and some are starting to become arrogant. The growth rate is not going to last forever, and as the wages become too high, the American (and some European) companies supporting the growth will start to outsource, and so the country is likely to go into a depression, especially with all of the EU regulations.

The Pro-IRA people on this site have every right to voice their opinions here. Just deal with it, like how we deal with all of the anti-Catholic bigots who spew their crap here. This is first and foremost, an AMERICAN conservative site, and any outsider that comes in here dictating who is and who is not a troll, is likely to be nothing more than a troll himself.

After doing a quick search under your name I find that you post almost exclusively on the IRA. Now, I subscribe to The Irish Voice, and I know that the Ulstermen are very active. Perhaps you should start posting on their doings as well, otherwise I very much question your motives. Just keep in mind, its the Irish-Americans who have been investing in Ireland and traveling there, and they can always pull out that investment and vacation elsewhere. I think it would be wise if you guys would refrain from IRA postings altogether, so that it would help keep the IRA supporters from posting.

I want you to know, I do not mean this to be personal, I am just sick of the "troll" name calling, and one-sided postings. The IRA are terrorists, period. Constantly posting articles on them is not going to win any new converts, as you are well aware, the Irish can be very stubborn people. I am trying to be objective, and to avoid future fights. I am half Irish from my fathers side, and I am very proud of my heritage, but I do take offense to the way in which you post here, thats all.

[Irish_Thatcherite]

I am glad to see you are well informed on Irish matters, and a lot of what you say about this country is true.

However, and I didn't take any personal offence to what you wrote, I don't see why pro-IRA posters should be treated any differently from, we'll say, pro-AQ posters.

I don't post as often about the Loyalist terror groups as much because there is unanimous agreement about those scumbags, also the IRA are a far bigger threat to Irish democracy at this present time.

And I have every right to post threads as many IRA threads as I wish.

Again, no offence taken

I_T.

[Verginius Rufus]

How is 48% an "overwhelming majority"? John Kerry received 48% of the popular vote in the 2004 Presidential election--I wouldn't call that an "overwhelming majority."

[Irish_Thatcherite]

It's a typo, it should have read 58%:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_troubles#Casualties_:_Brief_Summary

Between 1969 and 2001, 3,523 were killed as a result of the Troubles:

2055 by republican groups
1020 by loyalist groups
368 by British and Irish security forces
80 by groups or persons unknown.

[Irish_Thatcherite]

This is first and foremost, an AMERICAN conservative site, and any outsider that comes in here dictating who is and who is not a troll, is likely to be nothing more than a troll himself.

Actually, I do take offence to that!!!

People who sign up here supporting terrorism are trolls, plain and simple - pointing that self-evident fact out does not make me a troll... geeez!

[Theoden]

Don't take it personal. Always seeing IRA threads puts me in a bad mood. Post some positive stuff on Ireland, I like to see whats going on there, not who is blowing up who. It's depressing.

Anyway, I know you are not a troll. As it were, I usually only see a lot of the Brits and Irish pop up only on IRA related threads, usually post nothing positive, and then disappear. I view that as trolling. I usually don't get involved in IRA threads, this is the first time I have in well over a year. I hope you see where I am coming from here, more positive, less negative, and everyone would be much happier, lol.

Also, I don't believe most of the IRA supporters here support the actual methods the splinter groups like PIRA and The Real IRA use, they more or less support "the cause", or better yet, the ends, not the means. I think everyone would prefer no more bloodshed. I quite frankly am sick of the whole thing. You also have to remember, the reason why so many Americans are of Irish descent, and why they still hold so much animosity, is because they are raised to think like that, and are here because of the famine, so the anger is likely to be stronger here than in the Republic.

Just my thoughts.

Regards,

Theoden

[dfwgator]

The little teeny weeny amount of respect I may have had for the IRA went away when Gerry Adams went to Cuber and praised Fidel Castro.

[Irish_Thatcherite]

I'll say no more, I have bigger axes to grind than this, just a couple of things though:

I usually only see a lot of the Brits and Irish pop up only on IRA related threads, usually post nothing positive, and then disappear. I view that as trolling.

Maybe that's because it's one of the most pressing issues in this part of the world, in any case, a lot of people here just post to certain types of threads, that's just who they are - it isn't trolling. Also, a lot here on FR are not on-line here very often - so they prioritize certain threads.

Also, I don't believe most of the IRA supporters here support the actual methods the splinter groups like PIRA and The Real IRA use...

It's difficult to tell whether they do support those methods or not, if they do, they know better than to come out and say it on a conservative forum - but, the bottom line is, the moral compass clearly needs calibrating if they make moral equivalents of the IRA and the British.

******

The main reason I use the label 'troll', and the main reason I flame those individuals a lot, is basically because I could never get a reasoned response from the majority in the beginning - to tell them a few truths about the true nature of the IRA would incur labels like 'Orangeman' or 'Brit-apologist' - I figure that 'troll' is a well earned label when they refuse to listen to someone who's actually living in Ireland.

My apologies if I sounded a bit harsh before,

I_T.

[rzeznikj at stout]

Thread Jester Ping

(This one's a special limited edition one)...

A medium-volume pinglist dedicated to all the thread jesters out there--you know who you are...8^)

FReepmail rzeznikj at stout or MikefromOhio to be added or removed from this list...

[Irish_Thatcherite]

I'm still waiting for an unequivocal condemnation for the 1800 innocent civilians murdered by the IRA - in fact I'm still waiting for an unequivocal condemnation for the murder of members of the British security forces by the IRA.

[Irish_Thatcherite]

I'm still waiting for you to unequivocally condemn the IRA.

[Incorrigible]

My apologies if I sounded a bit harsh before,

Yeah, I_T!  As an Irishman, you're supposed to have an innate ability to insult someone and make it sound like a complement!

 

[MHGinTN]

Rep. Peter King is an American 'friend' of the IRA.

[Irish_Thatcherite]

Him an Ted Kennedy!!

[Irish_Thatcherite]

Maybe.. his post through me off guard somewhat.

[MHGinTN]

There are only two 'european countries' I will someday visit, Ireland and Scotland. I intend on flying into Ireland first and leaving via Scotland, without ever setting foot in England. Get the drift?

[Irish_Thatcherite]

Get the drift?

I'm afraid you are going to have to explain.

[MHGinTN]

England isn't as safe to visit as Ireland and Scotland. As a writer, my research won't be in England.

[Irish_Thatcherite]

That's true.

[Irish_Thatcherite]

It's taking you a very long time to unequivocally condemn Sinn Fein/IRA...

[jordan8]

I don't unequivocally condemn the IRA, though certainly some actions of the IRA should be condemned. More broadly, I don't condemn political violence in all circumstances. I stand by my original post: this "study" is a propaganda exercise that adds nothing to the knowledge of what happened and fails to prove its contention that IRA activities in Fermanagh constituted "ethnic cleansing", or even sectarian cleansing.

[Irish_Thatcherite]

You should condemn it in all circumstances, and that article is true - the IRA are responsible for the bulk of the murders in NI.

[Thunderpants]

Apart from the fact that the first sectarian shooting of the modern Troubles was a UVF operation, that the first bombing was UVF, and that the Protestants burned down large sections of Catholic areas in retaliaion for the catholics having th temerity to demand civil right before the Provisionals ever fired a shot, you might have a point

[Irish_Thatcherite]

Apart from the fact that the first sectarian shooting of the modern Troubles was a UVF operation, that the first bombing was UVF, and that the Protestants burned down large sections of Catholic areas in retaliaion for the catholics having th temerity to demand civil right before the Provisionals ever fired a shot, you might have a point

First of all, Newbie, why did you resurrect a 6 month old thread?

Second of all, do you unequivically condemn all IRA activity?

If the answer is anything other than a simple 'yes', you are a troll, end of story!

Ireland Ping!Getting-sick-of-IRA-shills-ping!

[presidio9]

Did you, ah, say "teacake?"

[Irish_Thatcherite]

LOL!

[aculeus]

[presidio9]

[presidio9]

[Irish_Thatcherite]

Ugh!! I remember that one! Just a few weeks before that happens again...

[Irish_Thatcherite]

Nice car, pity about the driver! ;)

[gondramB]

>>IRA were behind 48pc of Troubles murders A UNIVERSITY of Ulster academic yesterday blamed the IRA for the overwhelming majority of murders during the Troubles.<<

Professors really ought to be able to do math. 48 percent in not an "overwhelming majority."

[presidio9]

Somebody will probably tell her to avoid him this year. Unless Giuliani is her oponent, she's pretty much got the northeastern liberal donkey vote in the bag.

[gondramB]

Just noticed the thread is a year old.... what a PITA.