Skip to comments.Peter Handke Responds on the Question of Yugoslavia
Posted on 06/01/2006 3:20:50 AM PDT by Doctor13
So let's talk about Yugoslavia!
Finally, after more than a decade of one-way journalistic language that in no way made sense, an opening seems to have been created in France in the press (1), and perhaps not only in France, to speak about things differently? or simply to start speaking about Yugoslavia.
A debate, a discussion, a discourse, a fruitful discussion seems to have become possible, a general questioning, of reports that speak for themselves... Previously: nothing, and still more nothing? defamations instead of a debate, expressed by exclusively prefabricated words, repeated ad infinitum, used like an automatic weapon.
So let's enlarge this breach or opening, the springtime of words. Let us at last hear one another instead of screaming and snarling launched from two enemy camps. But also, let's no longer tolerate beings (?), evil (!) spirits (?), who, with respect to the tragic Yugoslav problem, continue firing word-bullets like "revisionism," "apartheid," "Hitler," "bloody dictatorship," etc. Let's stop all the comparisons and all the parallels made about the wars in Yugoslavia. Let's stick to the facts which, like the facts of a civil war, unleashed or at least co-produced by European bad faith or, at least, ignorance, already punctured, are terrible enough from all sides. Let's stop comparing Slobodan Milosevic to Hitler. Let's stop comparing him and his wife Mira Markovic to Macbeth and his Lady and let's stop drawing parallels between the couple and the dictator Ceaucescu and his wife Elena. And let's never again use the expression "concentration camps" for the camps established during the war of succession in Yugoslavia.
True: intolerable camps existed between 1992 and 1995 on the territory of the Yugoslav Republics, chiefly in Bosnia. Let's stop the exclusive and mechanical association of these camps with the Bosnian Serbs: there were also Croat and Muslim camps, and the crimes committed in these camps are and will be judged by The Hague Tribunal. And finally, let's stop associating massacres (of which there were many in Srebrenica in July 1995, and are in fact by far the most abominable) to Serbian forces or paramilitaries. Let's also listen finally to the survivors of the massacres committed by Muslims in the numerous Serbian villages that surround Srebrenica, the Muslim town, massacres committed over and over again during the three years before the fall of Srebrenica, massacres led by the commander of Srebrenica, leading in July 1995 to infernal vengeance, to eternal shame for those Bosnian Serbs responsible for it for the great butchery, and for once the oft-repeated word is in its proper place in the phrase "the greatest in Europe since World War II," while adding, nevertheless, this piece of information: that all the soldiers or Muslim men from Srebrenica who fled from Bosnia into Serbia by crossing the Drina River, the border between the two States, fled to Serbia, the country that was at the time under Milosevic's rule, and that all these soldiers who arrived in Serbia, a so-called enemy, were saved. No butchery or massacre there.
Yes, let's listen, after having listened to the "Mothers of Srebrenica," let's also listen to the mothers or one single mother from the village of Kravica, Serbian, close by, recount the Orthodox Christmas massacre in 1992-1993, committed by Muslim forces from Srebrenica, a massacre also conducted against the women and children of Kravica (the only crime for which the word genocide is appropriate).
And let's stop blindly associating the "snipers" of Sarajevo with "the Serbs": most of the French members of the UN peacekeeping force who were killed in Sarajevo were victims of Muslim gunmen. And let's stop associating the siege (horrible, stupid, incomprehensible) of Sarajevo exclusively with the Bosnian Serbs: in Sarajevo during 1992-1995, tens of thousands of the Serbian population remained blockaded in central neighborhoods like Grbavica, which were in turn put under siege - and how! - by Muslim forces. And let's stop attributing rapes exclusively to Serbs. And let's stop connecting words unilaterally, like one of Pavlov's dogs. Let's enlarge the opening. May the breach never again be choked by rotten and poisoned words. Evil spirits out. Leave language once and for all. Let's learn the art of the question, let's make a trip to the sonorous land, in the name of Yugoslavia, in the name of another Europe. Long live the other Europe! Long live Yugoslavia! Zivela Jugoslavia.
(1) See, among other things, the articles by Brigitte Salino and d'Anne Weber in Le Monde, May 4, 2006; the commentary by Piere Macrabru in Le Figaro, which was published on the same day; and the appeal made by Christian Salmon in Liberation on May 5, 2006.
Translated by Milo Yelesiyevich
Peter Hanke is one of the most prominent and popular German writers of the post war generation. He stirred a senation with a long essay defending Serbia against what he describes as a conspiracy of lazy and mendacious journalists who surf "from cliche to cliche."
He developed a growing mistrust of news accounts of the conflict, and decided to visit Serbia, "the land of the so-called aggressor. His report is part travelogue and part political tract.
A little late in coming, but better now than never.
Council to Revoke Handke's Prize
The city council in Düsseldorf, Germany, will vote next week to override the jury that chose the avant-garde Austrian author Peter Handke to receive the $50,000 Heinrich Heine Prize for literature, Agence France-Presse reported yesterday. Karin Trepke, a Green Party member of the council, said it planned to exercise its right to overrule the jury. Mr. Handke has been under fire for his sympathies for the Yugoslav leader Slobodan Milosevic, who died in March in The Hague while on trial for genocide and war crimes.
The problem is, after you start to understand that one, then the problem becomes, which part or parts of this garbage are we supposed to go on believing?
I mean, damn, that's just stupid.
The same kind of people who defend klepto-commie, friend of Saddam, ethnic-cleansing dictators like Milosevic by posting articles written by anti-American, left wing nut-jobs like Peter Hanke.
Prominent playwright Peter Handke, whose plays are mainstays on the German stage, said the United States should be disarmed, not Iraq.
Hoplite..I call him haremboy - is a busy little beaver...well on his way to the bizarre world of Mooslem martyrdom.
You know that if you walked down Pristina or some other albanian controlled town in Kosovo by your lonesome. You most likely will be stopped, questioned and if they don't like you, further 'questioned'. If you hang around there too long for more questions, might end up staying 'overnight' to have yourself checked out for story verification.
Why bother when these same albanians you are helping will turn around and would blow you away for saying anti-uck rants.
Honestly, you think we in the USA gives a rats ass if the albanians were given the proper ass kicking they deserve, again?
Imagine this, mark. If polled, the American people would not care if and or when the Serbs return to Kosovo and literally kick the hell out of the KPC/UCK and other 'pro'Albanian terrorist-narco groups within Southern Serbia regions. Come on now, you are living a fantasy world. You and I both know the situation on the ground there.
You've got my non-FR email address courtesy of your position within the US Gov't. Talk, 1/502d
Hoplite on the move, nursing homes and spatulas tremble...
Not only don't they care, but the majority doesn't even know that we are still there.......you are absolutely correct.
Nah - Hume (publisher, "Living Marxism") and Deichmann (author, "The Picture That Fooled the World") said it all at their trial for libel:
There has never been any question in my opinion or in the article that I published that this camp was anything other than a grim place at which there were beatings, there were killings and there were rapes. There has never been any question of that. We have never argued contrary to that. - Michael Hume
I do not say that they at the time were able to leave and there - you know, there were fences, there were guards, which we have seen here, armed guards. - Thomas Deichmann
The fact that you still believe the lies 6 years after they've been disowned and discredited says quite a lot, monty - basically it means that your opinion on the matter isn't informed, and therefore doesn't count for squat.
That could be more devastating than Mikhail Bulgakov and Samad Vurghun's collaboration on their 1930's play: "An Army In Need Of A Purge".
Well, of course "the man should be shot" -- for actually acknowledging that there were "Serb victims" in these wars!
I am about 2/3 of the way through the book "Media Cleansing" by Peter Brock. And it comfirms what I already knew -- that there was so much wrong with the reporting of the break-up of Yugoslavia and the subsequent books written on the subject, that EVERYONE should question all that they think they "know" about the break-up of Yugoslavia, as it was reported.
Those pics were taken from the inside looking out. I rode through that town but did not stop to sight see but I do know where that site is.
Omarska too, being a cool town, is or was nothing but a hyped story by discredited journalists/Roy Gutman and Martin Sugarman.
Woof! You have no leg to stand on besides your daddy's coattails and he aint even cool like others are, man. What happened to you?
ma bell, the only reason Islamophiles hang around FR is because you feed them with your answers. They can't post to themsleves. Ignore them and they will go away. :)
Calling Hoplite- Let's make a deal. I take the pictures from all various angles of the Trnopolje camp. Included will be the infamous photo shots that are now world-famous.
If proven that the pics were from 'inside' and not outside like we and you speculate (in respective order)
1- I and the others on here are wrong, I will give you the full scoop on myself.
2- If I am right and you are wrong, you do the same on yourself.
Not having them around. I find it much more meaningful to contemplate God every down time I have, and even pray that He convert the hearts of those whom you like to prod and poke.
I take the pictures from all various angles of the Trnopolje camp. Included will be the infamous photo shots that are now world-famous
I thought the Trnopolye mystery was resolved when wide-angle shots showed that the crowds gathered from outside out of curiosity to look at foreign journalists, who were inside the camp. You mean to tell me there are some people who still believe that it was the other way around?
That's almost like some people who still believe in Saddam's WMDs.
Commie Greens don't like him?...by default I do.
Good book, I'm reading it now......so many people have no idea that the book exists.
It's actually got a lot of notice in Conservative circles, especially after David Binder made that statement about how John Burns & Roy Gutman "should hand back their Pulitzers". But the book is only available through one source. You can't just "order it at Amazon".
From a literary point of view, it was less than concise and direct, but the information contained in it was priceless.
For example: In March 1994 (over a year before Operation Storm drove all the Serbs out of the Slavonia region of Croatia), with Croatia's permission, papers had been filed with the UN regarding Germany's use the area of 20 Serb villages as "a dump-site for chemical and nuclear waste material".
You want to tell me how reporters failed to notice that?
Yeah, I have been reading his little posts over there on the islamic site for awhile!! And, just today, another anti-SERB admitted to be gay. What an INTERESTING DAY!!
Let's have some fun at Hopelite's expense. I rewrote what he put on your link. Let's see how it fits properly.
As evidenced by the democratic electing of the Bosnian (Iranian-based) Al Dawa, Al Haramain, and RHIS and Other Islamic fundalmentalist groups of kosovo(the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution of Iraq), victory belongs to the Albanian Mafia and Muslim groups in Kosovo (Iran.)
Due to your support, Clnton (Bush according to Hopelite) has INADVERTENTLY fathered a burgeoning fundamentalist Islamic republic with long standing and direct ties to the Balkans to Kosovo which was advocated by the Clinton Administration. (According to Hopelite..it's Iran which Bush called an `axis of evil'.)
FACT: Every drop of blood and every cent spent is for the sake of an Islamic fundamentalist in the Balkans (Iraq).
How many more tens of thousands of people need to be maimed, raped, burned, beheaded, malnutritioned, killed, etc and how many more hundreds of billions of dollars need to be spent for the sake of an Islamic fundamentalist in the Balkans and covered up instead of Iraq?
Most Americans have no idea that countless lives, limbs, and vast amounts of cash are being spent in order to prop up a burgeoning fundamentalist in the Balkans since 1990's (Iraq according to Hopelite)
When the media tears down the firewall blocking this fact, there's going to be a lot of noise.
No American mother or father wishes to harm a hair on the head of their child for an Islamic fundamentalist in Kosovo. (Iraq).
Check out the fourth paragraph, that will blow your mind.....
Better late than never, but why would the Serbs wait until the last minute to take some sort of action. This has been going on since 1999 and not stopped.
STEPHEN SWARTZ, that American guy who converted to islame, the shitte kind... thinks like hoplite!!
In 1995 more than 100 Muslim fighters from Srebrenica escaped to Serbia. They were later relocated with the Red Cross assistance to Dublin,Ireland and The Hague, Netherlands. Those in Netherlands were given preferential treatment compared to other refugees and permanent immigrant status. My guess is they were used as a groomed 'protected witnesses" in The Hague circus.
For period before 1995 it is very useful to dig through internet newsgroup archives instead of web search. There is a lot of unfiltered useful information.
This is an extremelly important point. Sarajevo was a stong military garrison of Bosnian Muslim Army. Army prevented all citizens Muslims and Serbs alike to leave the town. It is war crime Hague Convention on warfare on land.
Serb citizens of Sarajevo were systematically targeted by Muslim militia and Military - harrassed, raped, murdered and forced to slave labor. More than 5000 were murdered while in captivitity.
The siege of Sarajevo started after Bosnian Muslims have massacred retreating JNA column.
Terrorism and provocation was a tactics, and playing victim strategy of Bosnian Muslim politicians. It worked, becase NATO needed job to justify it's existence.
There were more than 100.....the count was 8,000 murdered, but only 2000-3000 were actually killed as combatants.....a lot were Muslim vets from afghan. and surrounding Muslims groups. We helped train many if not most in Croatia for example......
P. 120 Srebrenica Survivors in St. Louis: After the Fall text and interviews by Patrick McCarthy: Quoting Hamil Becirovic a soldier who walked out:
Srebrenicas fall was very sudden. We were in our village when the attack began. There were strong points, strong defenses all around. My brother was with me. My mother, wife, and child were together and they went to Potocari.
Around 7:30 in the evening, we got the news that women and children should go in one direction and that men should go in another direction because of the possibility of attack.
The order came from the brigade commander in Srebrenica and the people followed that direction.
It was really hard. My wife took our child and left. I stayed behind at our house and waited for others who were leaving, so that we could go together.
About 11:15 p.m., the men started to get together and we went to a nearby village where the men were also gathering. I was with my family, friends, and neighbors. At one point, there were, I think, something like eighteen thousand men together in that one place.
They told us it would be difficult to walk from the place where we had gathered, to walk to Tuzla, because it was hard to organize eighteen thousand people into one row so that they would go one after another.
People started leaving about 1:00 a.m. It wasnt our time to go until about 6:00 a.m. Those ahead of us were moving for five hours and we still didnt leave until 6:00 a.m. my brother and the others I was with.
We crossed the Serb line and it immediately became more difficult because we were in their territory. There was one huge group of people walking in front of us, marking the way to go. Of course, after eighteen thousand people go, there is a mark of the way, there was a trail of the way out.
I arrived in Tuzla on the seventh day.
I underlined the one part because he first says "when the attack began" but then says they were preparing to evacuate "because of the possibility of attack" - so it doesn't appear any real fighting has begun - and for him at least - he didn't mention his unit/section receiving or returning any fire when they got the order to leave their defense positions.
Seems obvious, that when the command removes a large, strong army with good defenses, which hasn't even just lost a fight to outside forces, there was purposeful planning to allow the city to "fall".
When the Dutch turned over their OPs to the Serbs, Srebrenica's defenders lost the the strong points and defensible terrain on the enclave's southern perimeter, and against Serbian armor and artillery, the enclave's inadequately supplied defenders stood no chance of defending themselves.
Given the Serbian treatment of captured males, regardless of any actual military affiliation, evacuating turned out to be the best of a bad set of options for Srebrenica's defenders.
Exactly....and that is why there weren't 8,000 killed as previously claimed. Finally we agree on something.
The same principle holds true about Kosovo. They never did find 10,000 massacred bodies. The set up about the entire Balkan campaign was just enough truth to make the entire lie believeable.
Evacutation was permitted under Mladics Garde and remnants of the Drina Corps. The muslim population were given the promise of safe passage with bus transportation from the Serbian Army. The muslim army (that were under orders of Oric and Izetbegovic) didn't allow this to occur. When those muslims (civilian and military) that accepted the offer of the Serbs began to move towards the AA, is when muslim-on-muslim fighting began.
It was a running gun battle between those three segments -The Oric muslims v. muslim army and civies that wanted to leave v. the Serb Army and Serb local populace. It was not so much the Serb v. muslims wanting to leave, but they were given very good treatment and gave grids on the Oric muslims.
Do the math, the Serbs sat back while those two fractured groups were fighting it out and only moved in when it was clear they entire muslim army was pulling out.
I was in Tuzla in Jan 1996 when the claim was 11,000.
Bosnian so-called foreign minister Haris Silajdzic in 1994 launched the lie that 200,000 people have been killed in Bosnia and Herzegovina. He had no way of knowing that; it was a made up number intended for propaganda purposes. But he said it straightfaced, and all the western politicians, starting from Clinton on down the entire west-European puppet roster were repeating it as "fact." Of course, the implication was that the number represented the Muslim dead; Serb casualties were never counted as loss in the west.
The set up about the entire Balkan campaign was just enough truth to make the entire lie believeable
Well, we have a mirror situation in Iraq. We are there because of non-existent WMDs. One would wish someone in the government would double-check the facts before we cause deaths to our own sons and daughters and others ("collateral damage"). But, hey, it's been great for those who own oil shares.
That is injustice.
maybe, about Iraq, but there was enough evidence from the past to believe it...Kosovo is altogether a different story. At one time, Saddam did have chemicals..and he did use them to kill thousands...he did give the UN the run around for a long time...he did invade Kuwait, and they did use them in the Gulf war in small quantities.
Swartzkoff (name mispelled) had approved the bombing of a warehouse and the warehouse did have chemical weapons that unleashed a cloud of nerve agents.....fact...
So, Kosovo is in a class all by itself......
see one post above this ...ma bell to hoplite...thank you so kindly.
got it.....Also thanks for the introductions, and you know what I'm talking about. I sent a message back in response.
You are welcome.
yeah, great guys.
The Zarqawi killing was awesome with the Iraqi people cheering and making noise...:) From the reactions, you can determine who is pro-terrorist or pro-Iraqi/CF.
one big one down, hundreds more to go.....
We have a challenge concerning the Kosovo issue.....the independence is a bad thing. I sense that it was designed to effect the individual Russian states and not really for kosovo but Kosovo was used by the U.S. Administration to cause a domino effect in Russia....this is not good.
Nice to finally meet you, Michael/Hoplite as you affectionately call me, Big Z.
You didn't tell me you lived further up the coast, is that why we never met for hot chocolate/coffee in San Jose last year?
"Given the Serbian treatment of captured males, regardless of any actual military affiliation, evacuating turned out to be the best of a bad set of options for Srebrenica's defenders."
?????? Their treatment of POW's....you got to be kidding. How about the severed heads of Serb POW's by the Muslim Muh. that we (U.S. Admin, Klinton administered and Clarkie carried out)...brought into the Balkans to stir the trouble and behead the POW's....that would be Serbs or anyone else these jackels could find. The Jackels then went to Croatia, to feed on more Serbs....led by head jackel, Ceku....in operation storm....
Let's catch up.......with the facts and reality.
Michael how can you defense against this, with your continual denial of spinocracy?