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Switzerland's Liberal Drug Policy Seems To Work, Study Says
Medical News Today ^ | 02 Jun 2006 | Joe Santangelo

Posted on 06/03/2006 12:37:09 PM PDT by Know your rights

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To: Know your rights
OLD CHINESE SAYING:

THERE IS NO CHOICE BETWEEN STINKING FISH.

.

"Meth is much harder on its users than is heroin "

.


41 posted on 06/03/2006 3:03:57 PM PDT by MrCruncher
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To: WhistlingPastTheGraveyard
My skepticism of The Lancet and its agenda is very well-founded.

ROFL!!!
I can't count the number of times pro drug war freepers have quoted the Lancet when they publish a paper supporting the drug war...I find this refreshing!
The Lancet was not the only one to publish this research:
Official Swiss Government Source
42 posted on 06/03/2006 3:22:08 PM PDT by mugs99 (Don't take life too seriously, you won't get out alive.)
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To: mugs99
I can't count the number of times pro drug war freepers have quoted the Lancet when they publish a paper supporting the drug war

Find an instance where I ever have and get back to me.

43 posted on 06/03/2006 3:34:06 PM PDT by WhistlingPastTheGraveyard
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To: WhistlingPastTheGraveyard

No comment on the Official Swiss Government source?


44 posted on 06/03/2006 3:49:42 PM PDT by mugs99 (Don't take life too seriously, you won't get out alive.)
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To: Redmen4ever; martin_fierro
I think martin_fierro was taunting libertarians.

VonMises.org had an email out recently describing how Somalia can function [such as it does] without a true central Government. It is very much a clan or tribal thing. There wasn't that much in the article in terms of making that case that this was a good thing. The email did to some extent explain why the half hearted attempt at humanitarian aid and nation building a la the 1990s was doomed to failure.

BTW as I understand it,the anarchist wing of the small "l" libertarians, really does exist. Rothbard a leading libertarian of the recent past was an advocate of no government. I consider myself to be a libertarian, but Rothbard's belief in the idea of the benefits of anarchy is / was total nonsense.

45 posted on 06/03/2006 4:07:03 PM PDT by R W Reactionairy ("Everyone is entitled to their own opinion ... but not to their own facts" Daniel Patrick Moynihan)
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To: mugs99

Obviously, the findings of a sociologist on the payroll of a parliamentary-socialist government hold more sway with you than I.

Did you want to debate specifics?

If so, the first thing I'd like to know is what method the Swiss used for counting junkies in Zurich in 1996, and what method they use today.

I'd also like to know what method the "regressives" (Britian, Italy, Australia) use to do the same.

We'll go from there.


46 posted on 06/03/2006 4:37:50 PM PDT by WhistlingPastTheGraveyard
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To: WhistlingPastTheGraveyard
If so, the first thing I'd like to know

All your questions are answered in the Official Swiss Government Report I gave you the link to. You obviously didn't bother to read it or you would have mentioned the caution they themselves gave about the study.

You waste my time.
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47 posted on 06/03/2006 5:49:47 PM PDT by mugs99 (Don't take life too seriously, you won't get out alive.)
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To: WhistlingPastTheGraveyard

Nanny-state & libertarian are mutually exclusive. A truly libertarian country would let the junkies kill themselves, which is ok by me, except that they steal & push their junk on kids to pay for their habit.

The Swiss are simply trying something different, that MIGHT work, or MIGHT NOT. We know for sure that the current WOD is a failure - just look around. Drugs are plentiful in the US & Europe.

Perhaps the Swiss have figured out that the crime & drug dealing is WAY worse than giving the junkies their daily fix. Maybe they figure that if the junkies are not buying on the street, the street dealers will dry up for lack of steady customers. The counseling that accompanies the free fix MIGHT convince some of the junkies to quit - their dealer certainly wont.

If someone needed my help, I would give it. If what I was doing was not helping, but was making things worse, I would TRY SOMETHING ELSE. To continue to do the wrong thing is to become part of the problem.


48 posted on 06/03/2006 6:27:29 PM PDT by Mister Da (The mark of a wise man is not what he knows, but what he knows he doesn't know!)
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To: martin_fierro
SOMALIA: Libertarian Paradise.

If Somalia was Libertarian they wouldn't be having the problems they're having now.

49 posted on 06/03/2006 6:38:09 PM PDT by Extremely Extreme Extremist (Conservatism is moderate, it is the center, it is the middle of the road)
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To: mugs99
They're counting the number of new junkies based on solely on the number of people who seek government administered substitution treatment, assuming half of all junkies seek treatment within two years of beginning regular heroin use. There's no accounting for junkies who simply don't seek any treatment at all.

The survey never specifies where it obtained its data on Britain, Italy or Australia, nor does it share any specifics. Only that "new" users have increased every year, while in Switzerland they have decreased. Again, they're basing these numbers on junkies who seek substitution treatment (from where, we don't know), assuming the author's two-year rule is a universal truth.

Their own evidence could just as easily be used to suggest that more people seek treatment in countries where heroin is criminalized than in countries where it is decriminalized. That's the thing about statistics. They can be used to show pretty much whatever you want them to show. That's why I don't put a whole lot of stock in these types of studies.

And, for the record, the article you link to isn't a seperate study supporting the findings from The Lancet/Zurich University study. It is a story about The Lancet/Zurich U study. So if I wasted your precious time, we're even.

50 posted on 06/03/2006 6:59:29 PM PDT by WhistlingPastTheGraveyard
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To: Mister Da
Nanny-state & libertarian are mutually exclusive.

That might have been true, before libertarians allowed themselves to be wholly defined by their pro-drug platform. Now, they seem to be attracting users looking to rationalize their own behavior, instead of consitutionally-minded citizens trying to move America towards a more limited government.

Switzerland is absolutely a nanny-state for junkies. Mandatory treatment is merely part of the mandatory health-care agenda. And libertarians are on board with it, even if it is the antithesis of everything they supposedly stand for, because it's part of a relaxed drug policy. If the two are mutually exclusive, someone down at LP headquarters better blast-fax the faithful and let them know about it before they end up with Bill Maher as the party chairman.

Arguing against the WOD is one thing. Arguing in favor of Switzerland's socialist junkie-maintenance program is quite another.

51 posted on 06/03/2006 7:15:37 PM PDT by WhistlingPastTheGraveyard
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To: WhistlingPastTheGraveyard
There's no accounting for junkies who simply don't seek any treatment at all
That's true. Many of their addicts are self supporting and no drain on the taxpayers.

That's the thing about statistics. They can be used to show pretty much whatever you want them to show
You could have stated that in the beginning and saved all of this tooth pulling...Your bias is showing: The Lancet even went so far as to use its pages to suggest that Andrew von Eschenbach was an unfit FDA director
von Eschenbach is an unfit FDA diector. He has destroyed what little credibility the FDA had left and turned the agency into a propaganda mill.
.
52 posted on 06/03/2006 8:24:46 PM PDT by mugs99 (Don't take life too seriously, you won't get out alive.)
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To: Know your rights; Vigilanteman
"The GOS [Government of Singapore] nonetheless is concerned about the increase in addiction rates and recidivism among drug offenders who have undergone treatment. There are currently about 9,000 addicts undergoing rehabilitation in Singapore treatment centers, the same number as in 1995."

--http://www.state.gov/www/global/narcotics_law/1996_narc_report/index.html

For the Netherlands-- "Demand Reduction. The Netherlands has extensive demand reduction programs and low­threshold medical services for addicts, who are also offered drug rehabilitation programs. Authorities believe such programs reach about 70­80 percent of the country's 25,000 hard­drug users. [my note: in a total population of 15.1 million]

--http://www.state.gov/www/global/narcotics_law/1996_narc_report/index.html

_______________________________________

Using a population of 3 million for Singapore in 1996, that works out to an addiction rate of about 0.30%.

Using the State Dept. figures for the Netherlands, and a population of 15.1 million, the addiction rate was about 0.17%.

Also note that the Singapore figure only takes into account the addicts under treatment, whereas the figure for Holland is the estimate of the total number of addicts.

53 posted on 06/03/2006 8:27:46 PM PDT by Ken H
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To: Ken H
Interesting stats. But I'm told by a Singaporean acquaintence that the addition rate in the late 1950's was close to 10%, so there was a much large base to start from.

Also, the Netherlands is overrun with Muzzies who would just as soon cut off your head as look at you. Compare crime rates with the lenient European countries to a strict county like Singapore and the comparison is a bit more valid. Drug use feeds crime, though there is a need to differentiate between the basically victimless soft drugs like cannabis (for which decriminalization is perhaps a logical alternative) and hard drugs like heroin.

54 posted on 06/03/2006 10:18:52 PM PDT by Vigilanteman (crime would drop like a sprung trapdoor if we brought back good old-fashioned hangings)
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To: mugs99
That's true. Many of their addicts are self supporting and no drain on the taxpayers.

It's hard to suggest they're not a drain on the taxpayers when the rate of welfare dependency is at 28%. Before the liberalization of Switzerland's drug laws, the rate was at 17% (Britain is 18%, Australia is 17%, US is 14%).

Regardless, even if what you say is true, and Switzerland has an abundance of productive heroin addicts in the workforce, it doesn't change the fact that they have no idea whether or not decriminalization has actually led to diminished heroin use. And that was the main finding of this study.

Your bias is showing

I wasn't trying to conceal it. Then again, I'm not getting paid to conduct surveys on social issues.

55 posted on 06/03/2006 10:30:10 PM PDT by WhistlingPastTheGraveyard
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To: Vigilanteman
Drug use feeds crime, though there is a need to differentiate between the basically victimless soft drugs like cannabis (for which decriminalization is perhaps a logical alternative) and hard drugs like heroin.

I'd like to see personal growth decriminalized. That would be a major blow to the traffickers, and a major relief for law enforcement.

Cannabis is definitely the least of our problems.

56 posted on 06/03/2006 10:44:18 PM PDT by WhistlingPastTheGraveyard
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To: WhistlingPastTheGraveyard
It's hard to suggest they're not a drain on the taxpayers when the rate of welfare dependency is at 28%. Before the liberalization of Switzerland's drug laws, the rate was at 17% (Britain is 18%, Australia is 17%, US is 14%).
ROFL!!!
You rant against the use of statistics in one post yet use them in the next! What is your source for those percentages?

it doesn't change the fact that they have no idea whether or not decriminalization has actually led to diminished heroin use. And that was the main finding of this study.
They do know that decriminalization has not led to the increase in heroin use that opponents of decriminalization predicted.

Deriminalization has not led to an increase in drug use in Switzerland or the Netherlands and that is the most important fact of all. I would cite the statistics but you're opposed to statisics when used by those other than yourself.
.
57 posted on 06/04/2006 5:44:43 AM PDT by mugs99 (Don't take life too seriously, you won't get out alive.)
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To: mugs99
ROFL!!!

You do that a lot. It's like the chat-room equivalent of the Al Gore off-camera debate sneer. Very effective.

You rant against the use of statistics in one post yet use them in the next!

Of course, I realized this would be your reaction as I wrote it. I did it anyway, because I was using the statistic to counter one specific, completely unfounded statement you made about how taxpayer dollars were spent in Switzerland. Not to make an argument against legalization.

Also, I didn't rant against statistics. I said they can be used to show whatever you want them to show. Which is still true.

What is your source for those percentages?

Funny how everything I say requires a source, while everything you say should just be accepted on its face. I'll show you my sources for welfare dependency statistics when you show me your source for the stats that show all the productive junkies decriminalization has created and all the money they've saved the Swiss taxpayers. Since that was what I was responding to, I think it's only fair that you back it up with the hard data you constantly demand before proceeding with this any further.

58 posted on 06/04/2006 10:37:21 AM PDT by WhistlingPastTheGraveyard
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To: Vigilanteman
Compare crime rates with the lenient European countries to a strict county like Singapore and the comparison is a bit more valid. Drug use feeds crime, though there is a need to differentiate between the basically victimless soft drugs like cannabis (for which decriminalization is perhaps a logical alternative) and hard drugs like heroin.

You might want to compare the conditions in Sweden, where they've adopted the UN's "zero tolerance" policies on even "soft drugs" like cannabis.

59 posted on 06/04/2006 10:46:11 AM PDT by tacticalogic ("Oh bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
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To: mugs99
Deriminalization has not led to an increase in drug use in Switzerland or the Netherlands and that is the most important fact of all.

Yet, it's not a fact at all. It's a conclusion one study came to based on the number of people seeking substiution treatment, giving no consideration to the possibility that fewer people might seek treatment for a drug in a society which has decriminalized said drug.

And the study says nothing about overall "drug use". It applies specifically to heroin, giving no consideration to the cyclical popularity of specific drugs.

60 posted on 06/04/2006 10:55:47 AM PDT by WhistlingPastTheGraveyard
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