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Concern Growing Over U.S. Troops' Ammo
CBS News ^ | June 7 2006

Posted on 06/07/2006 5:42:42 PM PDT by jmc1969

As American troop casualties in Iraq continue to mount, concern is growing they may be outgunned. That includes new questions about the stopping power of the ammunition that is used by the standard-issue M-16 rifle.

Shortly after the U.N. headquarters was bombed in Baghdad in August 2003, a Special Forces unit went to Ramadi to capture those responsible.

In a fierce exchange of gunfire, one insurgent was hit seven times by 5.56 mm bullets, reports CBS News chief investigative correspondent Armen Keteyian. It took a shot to the head with a pistol to finally bring him down. But before he died, he killed two U.S. soldiers and wounded seven more.

"The lack of the lethality of that bullet has caused United States soldiers to die," says Maj. Anthony Milavic.

Milavic is a retired Marine major who saw three tours of duty in Vietnam. He says the small-caliber 5.56, essentially a .22-caliber civilian bullet, is far better suited for shooting squirrels than the enemy, and contends that urban warfare in Iraq demands a bigger bullet. "A bullet that knocks the man down with one shot," he says. "And keeps him down."

Milavic is not alone. In a confidential report to Congress last year, active Marine commanders complained that: "5.56 was the most worthless round," "we were shooting them five times or so," and "torso shots were not lethal."

In last week's Marine Corps Times, a squad leader said his Marines carried and used "found" enemy AK-47s because that weapon's 7.62 mm bullets packed "more stopping power."

(Excerpt) Read more at kutv.com ...


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: 556; m1; m14; m16; marines; milavic; rifle; usmc
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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1 posted on 06/07/2006 5:42:44 PM PDT by jmc1969
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To: jmc1969

.308 would be my caliber of choice.


2 posted on 06/07/2006 5:44:45 PM PDT by Firefigher NC
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To: jmc1969

Bring back the M-14 with 3 round fire capability! 7.62 will put them down to stay!


3 posted on 06/07/2006 5:45:35 PM PDT by calex59 (The '86 amensty put us in the toilet, now the senate wants to flush it!)
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To: jmc1969
Right.

4 posted on 06/07/2006 5:45:41 PM PDT by MarkeyD (Make Love, Not Cartoons. I really, really loathe liberals.)
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To: jmc1969
This is just cyclical news. This issue comes up about 4 times a year.
5 posted on 06/07/2006 5:46:47 PM PDT by MarkeyD (Make Love, Not Cartoons. I really, really loathe liberals.)
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To: jmc1969

History often repeats itself when fighting Muslims or fanatics.

The .45 round was created to put down people like that.


6 posted on 06/07/2006 5:47:23 PM PDT by Marius3188 (Happy Resurrection Weekend)
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To: jmc1969

The M-16 ammo has the advantage of being light weight and easier to carry, but I'd still rather weigh myself down a little more and use .308 in combat, assuming my rifle is good.


7 posted on 06/07/2006 5:47:31 PM PDT by Firefigher NC
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To: jmc1969
As American troop casualties in Iraq Detroit and Washington DC continue to mount, concern is growing they may be outgunned.
8 posted on 06/07/2006 5:47:41 PM PDT by perfect stranger (I need new glasses.)
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To: jmc1969
It took a shot to the head with a pistol to finally bring him down. But before he died, he killed two U.S. soldiers and wounded seven more.

Most likely high on drugs; bring back the dum-dum bullet.

9 posted on 06/07/2006 5:47:45 PM PDT by demlosers
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To: jmc1969

Good grief! This has been an issue since Vietnam and CBS just discovered our troops are undergunned? Somehow I doubt the seriousness of their concern.


10 posted on 06/07/2006 5:48:29 PM PDT by saganite (Billions and billions and billions-------and that's just the NASA budget!)
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To: jmc1969

The M16 can be chambered to handle much more powerful cartridges. They've tested the new Remmington 6.8 SPC and several others. The problem is that it's taking far too long to make a decision.


11 posted on 06/07/2006 5:48:30 PM PDT by umgud (FR, NASCAR & 24, way too much butt time)
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To: jmc1969
"There is no such thing as a well-aimed shot in combat, because combat is fought by scared 18-year-olds who haven't been trained enough and are in a place they've never seen before," Sprey says.

Wow, I am surprised he admitted that. He's right, if you are going to give rifles to people who aren't well trained they should be light, etc. However, the real issue is not what rifle is being carried, but rather why the soldiers aren't properly trained.

12 posted on 06/07/2006 5:50:22 PM PDT by Rodney King (No, we can't all just get along.)
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To: calex59
Bring back the M-14...

Damn right, there must be tens of thousands in storage, issue them out!!

Get rid of that dinky SAW while we're at it, M60 rules!

Get some! Get some!!

13 posted on 06/07/2006 5:50:45 PM PDT by CrawDaddyCA (Free Travis McGee!!)
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To: jmc1969

It's just goofy to send our guys over there with Phasers on stun.


14 posted on 06/07/2006 5:50:52 PM PDT by RobRoy
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To: jmc1969

.223 is an excellent varmint round, but illegal to use on deer sized game in most states. I have often wondered about that.


15 posted on 06/07/2006 5:52:43 PM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: jmc1969
Uh...I don't think so.

Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting

16 posted on 06/07/2006 5:54:35 PM PDT by randita
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To: jmc1969

These guys crack me up. The media HATES the war- they detest the military and look at them as though they're from another planet...and YET- they are concerned that combat soldiers may or may not have adequate firepower?

pppffftttt..


17 posted on 06/07/2006 5:55:10 PM PDT by SE Mom (God Bless those who serve.)
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To: calex59
I had a Mini 14 and LOVED IT!

I kept my CAR-15 for 1 month, just no fun, it had to go.

I have had my eyes on my brother's M-1 Garand for years but the only way he'll give it up is after the death grip has gone.
18 posted on 06/07/2006 5:58:51 PM PDT by Mikey_1962 (If you build it, they won't come...)
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To: redgolum

.223 makes a pretty good deer round if you don't exceed it's capabilities. No shots over 100 yards and good shot placement and it's acceptable.


19 posted on 06/07/2006 5:58:59 PM PDT by saganite (Billions and billions and billions-------and that's just the NASA budget!)
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To: jmc1969
OK ten responses and I hadn't seen it, so I have to say it.

This is the Haditha one-two. If the holes in the victims are from AK-47's, the press is laying the groudwork to say the Marines did it anyway. Plain and simple, folks.

20 posted on 06/07/2006 5:59:14 PM PDT by Smokin' Joe (How often God must weep at humans' folly.)
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To: All

By John G. Roos
The Army Times
12-1-3

"The bullet is so controversial that if Thomas, a former SEAL, had been on active duty, he would have been court-martialed for using it."

One-Shot Killer

This 5.56mm Round Has All The Stopping Power You Need - But You Can't Use It. Here's Why.

Ben Thomas and three colleagues were driving north out of Baghdad in an SUV on a clear mid-September morning, headed down a dirt road into a rural village, when gunmen in several surrounding buildings opened fire on them.

In a brief but intense firefight, Thomas hit one of the attackers with a single shot from his M4 carbine at a distance he estimates was 100 to 110 yards.

He hit the man in the buttocks, a wound that typically is not fatal. But this round appeared to kill the assailant instantly.

"It entered his butt and completely destroyed everything in the lower left section of his stomach ... everything was torn apart," Thomas said.

Thomas, a security consultant with a private company contracted by the government, recorded the first known enemy kill using a new - and controversial - bullet.

The bullet is so controversial that if Thomas, a former SEAL, had been on active duty, he would have been court-martialed for using it. The ammunition is "nonstandard" and hasn't passed the military's approval process.

"The way I explain what happened to people who weren't there is ... this stuff was like hitting somebody with a miniature explosive round," he said, even though the ammo does not have an explosive tip. "Nobody believed that this guy died from a butt shot."

The bullet Thomas fired was an armor-piercing, limited-penetration round manufactured by RBCD of San Antonio.

A new process

APLP ammo is manufactured using a so-called "blended-metal" process, said Stan Bulmer, president of sales and manufacturing for Le Mas Ltd. of Little Rock, Ark. Le Mas is the distributor of RBCD ammo.

Various bullet types made by RBCD are designed for different effects, Bulmer said.

The frangible APLP ammo will bore through steel and other hard targets but will not pass through a human torso, an eight-inch-thick block of artist's clay or even several layers of drywall. Instead of passing through a body, it shatters, creating "untreatable wounds."

Le Mas gave Thomas a small number of APLP rounds after he contacted the company.

After driving off their attackers, Thomas and his colleagues quickly searched the downed enemy fighter for items of intelligence value. They also took time to examine the wound.

"There's absolutely no comparison, whatever, none," to other wounds he has seen from 5.56mm ammo, Thomas said in a telephone interview while on home leave in Florida.

He said he feels qualified to assess a bullet's effects, having trained as a special-operations medic and having shot people with various types of ammo, including the standard-issue green tip and the Black Hills Mk 262, favored by spec-ops troops.

Thomas was the only member of the four-man group who had RBCD ammo. He said that after the group returned to base, they and other members of his group snatched up the remaining rounds.

"They were fighting over it," he said. "At the end of the day, each of us took five rounds. That's all we had left."

Congress wants tests

Last year's defense budget included $1.05 million for testing blended-metal bullets, Bulmer said. Fourteen months into the 24-month period during which those research and development-testing funds must be spent, the military has not purchased a single bullet from Le Mas.

Publicly, at least, military officials say RBCD ammo is no more effective than other types now in use and, under certain conditions, doesn't even perform as well. Those conclusions are derived from a series of tests conducted a few years ago in which RBCD ammo's effects were observed in ballistic gelatin, the standard means for testing bullets.

Naval Reserve Lt. Cmdr. Gary Roberts, a recognized ballistics expert and member of the International Wound Ballistics Association, conducted the gelatin tests in March 2002.

According to his findings, "Claims that RBCD bullet terminal performance can vary depending on target thickness, size or mass were not shown to have merit, as bullet performance remained consistent irrespective of gelatin block size."

Roberts found that in gelatin, a 9mm, 60-grain slug exhibited "tissue damage comparable to that of other nonexpanding 9mm bullets and is less than that of standard 9mm [jacketed hollow point] designs, since the RBCD bullet does not create as much tissue damage due to its smaller recovered diameter."

A .45-caliber bullet "offered average terminal performance in bare and denim-clad gelatin, similar to that noted with the 9mm bullet. ... The RBCD bullets do not appear to be a true frangible design, as significant mass is retained after striking a target."

Not surprisingly, Roberts' assessment remains a major impediment to getting RBCD ammo into military hands. Considering his standing in the ballistics community, his findings are accepted as gospel by many influential members of the special-operations community.

But Bulmer insists that tests in ballistic gelatin fail to demonstrate RBCD ammo's actual performance because the gelatin is chilled to 36 degrees. Their bullets seem to shatter most effectively only when they strike warmer targets, such as live tissue. Bulmer said tests using live animals clearly would show its effects. Despite his appeals for such testing, and the funds set aside by Congress to conduct new tests, the military refuses.

Bulmer said authority to spend the testing funds initially went to U.S. Special Operations Command in Tampa, Fla., which delegated testing responsibility to the Army Special Operations Command at Fort Bragg, N.C.

Queries to the command confirmed that it was aware of the testing requirement but had not decided when, or if, the tests will be conducted.

Bill Skipper, president and CEO of the American Business Development Group, is a lobbyist representing Le Mas on Capitol Hill. "When I heard of the ballistic characteristics of this ammo, as a retired military officer, I realized it has to stay in the good guys' hands," he said, adding that SOComís reluctance to test it is "irresponsible."

"This is an issue of national security," he said.

Some supporters of RBCD ammunition suggest SOCom officials may be reluctant to test the ammo because it threatens "in-house" weapons and ammunition programs underway at the command.

Special-operations forces long have sought a more potent standard round than the 5.56mm, which lacks the punch needed during the long-distance engagements that frequently occur in Afghanistan and Iraq. In response, SOCom is working with weapons and ammunition manufacturers to develop a new round and new upper receivers for M4 and M16 rifles.

The command apparently has narrowed its search to a 6.8-by-43mm round.

Indication of industries' involvement in this effort was seen in October during the annual Association of the U.S. Army exhibition in Washington.

If Le Mas' 5.56mm APLP round delivers the performance SOCom is seeking in the new 6.8mm ammo - and Bulmer insists it does - the rationale and the potentially lucrative contracts for producing a new ammo type and modifying thousands of weapons used by special-operations forces would disappear.

Thomas said he isn't familiar with the reasons that might keep RBCD ammo from getting a realistic test within the military.

"The politics, that's above my pay grade," he said. "All I really care about is that I have the best-performing weapon, optics, communications, medical equipment, etc. I'm taking Le Mas ammo with me when I return to Iraq, and I've already promised lots of this ammo to my buddies who were there that day and to their friends."

When military officials in the United States got wind that Thomas had used the round, he quickly found himself in the midst of an online debate in which an unnamed officer, who mistakenly assumed Thomas was in the service, threatened him with a court martial for using the nonstandard ammo.

Although Thomas was impressed by RBCD ammo's performance, he feels it should not be the standard ammunition issued to all U.S. forces.

"The first thing I say when I talk to people about Le Mas' ammo is, make sure that 22-year-old infantrymen don't get a hold of this, because if they have an accident ... if they have a negligent discharge, that person is dead. It doesn't matter how much body armor you have on.

"This is purely for putting into bad guys. For general inventory, absolutely not. For special operations, I wouldn't carry anything else."

A video clip on RBCD ammo that was shot at the annual Armed Forces Journal Shootout at Blackwater is online at www.armedforcesjournal.com/bullets.
- John G. Roos is editor of Armed Forces Journal.


21 posted on 06/07/2006 6:00:17 PM PDT by Flavius (Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum)
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To: jmc1969
Oh, fer cripes' sake! Do we have to fight THIS battle again???? And from media who don't know a 5.56 mankiller from a 6.5 Mannlicher.

This is just more media buzz to undermine confidence in our equipment. The 5.56 will kill a raghead just as dead as dropping an anvil on him.

22 posted on 06/07/2006 6:00:31 PM PDT by IronJack
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To: SE Mom
The media HATES the war- they detest the military and look at them as though they're from another planet...and YET- they are concerned that combat soldiers may or may not have adequate firepower?

Uh-uh. see post 20.

This is SeeBS, they are always up to something.

23 posted on 06/07/2006 6:00:47 PM PDT by Smokin' Joe (How often God must weep at humans' folly.)
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To: Firefigher NC
It was the caliber of choice in the M-14 up to the early-mid 60s. Then I was disappointed to hear it was being replaced by the 5.56mm. The argument at the time and I remember it well was lighter recoil and less bulky ammo so more could be carried and sent downrange. So away went the M-14s, many of which were given away by Klinton to the Balkans. Sad story to this non combat vet.
24 posted on 06/07/2006 6:01:40 PM PDT by mcshot (Enemies pouring through our gates and others holding office under false pretenses.)
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To: Smokin' Joe

Your theory certainly makes more sense than that the media would be seriously concerned about our soldiers lack of firepower.


25 posted on 06/07/2006 6:02:07 PM PDT by saganite (Billions and billions and billions-------and that's just the NASA budget!)
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To: jmc1969

When I was in the Army I remember hearing a story about how we got the M16. Don't know if it's true, but basically some general who was buddies with an arms manufacturer signed a deal for the M16s without the approval of Congress. The government, wanting to avoid embarrassment, simply went along with it seeing as how thousands of them had already been ordered and paid for.

On another note, the M16 would be the perfect weapon for our enemies to use against us. The premise is that the M16 will not kill, but rather wound and incapacitate a combatant. The result is that you take out two soldiers for every one hit - the second one being taken out of the fray to attend to his wounded comrade. Like I said, it would be a perfect tactic to use against us since those in the US military do all they can to never leave a wounded man behind. However, the enemies we face today have no problems purposely blowing themselves up. Frankly, the two for one tactic will not work against people who don't care for human life and are eager to die.

The time for the M16 has passed. We desperately need something with much more stopping power.


26 posted on 06/07/2006 6:03:53 PM PDT by frankiep (Visualize Whirled Peas)
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To: jmc1969
Old news, about 40 years old. I prefer the M-14, though the plastic rifle can be chambered for .308. But what's with

the small-caliber 5.56, essentially a .22-caliber civilian bullet, is far better suited for shooting squirrels than the enemy

I presume the Major doesn't care to eat his squirrels.

27 posted on 06/07/2006 6:04:16 PM PDT by SJackson (The Pilgrims—Doing the jobs Native Americans wouldn’t do!)
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To: Smokin' Joe

Baaaaaahahha...BINGO!


28 posted on 06/07/2006 6:05:00 PM PDT by SE Mom (God Bless those who serve.)
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To: CrawDaddyCA
From Wikipedia:

M14 production tooling was sold in 1967 to the Taiwanese, who in 1968 began producing their Type 57 Rifle.

479,367 M14 rifles were destroyed by Presidential Executive Order during the Clinton administration.

29 posted on 06/07/2006 6:06:34 PM PDT by Ben Hecks
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To: Mikey_1962

I have a Mini-30 and I really love it. My little brother has a Mini-14. That's why I call him my little bro!


30 posted on 06/07/2006 6:08:34 PM PDT by montomike (If you didn't find this funny and were offended...have a riot.)
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To: Ben Hecks

I guess snap public polls by media outlets showed the "massacres" in Iraq had little effect. Time to move on to plan Q.

I swear, journalists sit in back rooms coming up with these stories and ways to market them to the public.


31 posted on 06/07/2006 6:09:03 PM PDT by abercrombie_guy_38
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To: Mikey_1962
I picked up my Garand at a gunshow years ago before the price went skyrocketing. It's an arsenal assembled mismatch and not a re-import but I only paid $399! It's a nice rifle. But for comfort and just downright shootability, I like my 30 carbine.

I have a CAR and an SKS as well.

32 posted on 06/07/2006 6:09:12 PM PDT by Antoninus II
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To: Flavius

Good article. Thanks for posting it.


33 posted on 06/07/2006 6:09:26 PM PDT by saganite (Billions and billions and billions-------and that's just the NASA budget!)
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To: Ben Hecks
479,367 M14 rifles were destroyed by Presidential Executive Order during the Clinton administration.

Why am I not suprised...

34 posted on 06/07/2006 6:09:44 PM PDT by CrawDaddyCA (Free Travis McGee!!)
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To: IronJack
I'll be shooting my little black rifle this weekend.

Long range vs short range, penetration vs stopping power, light vs heavy, there is no perfect round or weapons system. What they have in one area they lack in another.

There is a big difference in wt between 390 rds of 5.56 and 390 rds of 7.62.
35 posted on 06/07/2006 6:10:22 PM PDT by PeteB570 (Guns, what real men want for Christmas)
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To: saganite

thats what we are here for


36 posted on 06/07/2006 6:11:15 PM PDT by Flavius (Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum)
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To: calex59
Bring back the M-14 with 3 round fire capability!

Anticipating such need, Bill Clinton ordered ~750,000 M-14's in inventory to be destroyed.

37 posted on 06/07/2006 6:13:32 PM PDT by fso301
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To: jmc1969

There is no doubt that, given the same circumstances, a 7.62 round will have more stopping power than a 5.56 round. I've seen wounds cause by an AK-47 round - 7.62 - and an M-16 - 5.56 - and in both instances the subjects were just a dead. In the heat, over a long distance, with all the body armor used in Iraq, I'd take the M-16 where I could carry more ammo. It was the same in Nam.
Why do we go through this again and again? This seems more appropriate over a few beers with old soldiers and foggy memories.


38 posted on 06/07/2006 6:14:07 PM PDT by caisson71
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To: demlosers
Most likely high on drugs; bring back the dum-dum bullet.

What, exactly is a dum-dum bullet?

39 posted on 06/07/2006 6:14:15 PM PDT by Cobra64 (All we get are lame ideas from Republicans and lame criticism from dems about those lame ideas.)
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To: jmc1969
Shortly after the U.N. headquarters was bombed in Baghdad in August 2003, a Special Forces unit went to Ramadi to capture those responsible.

I thought Special Forces already went to a 6.5mm version of the M-16? Is this article using old data?

40 posted on 06/07/2006 6:15:58 PM PDT by fso301
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To: Antoninus II

I have a M-1 Carbine as well. Cheap ammo, fun to shoot.


41 posted on 06/07/2006 6:17:21 PM PDT by Mikey_1962 (If you build it, they won't come...)
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To: jmc1969
On ballistic fetish lists I was on many years ago, there were real world cases posted of people taking multiple .40 and .45 bullets to the torso and head(!) without going down. Their is no Hammer of God(tm) cartridge that comes in a convenient infantry package. The DC sniper managed to kill most of his victims with a single 5.56mm bullets. Ironically, the 7.62x39 is a ballistically inferior round almost anyway you slice it, so I am not sure why anyone would want to use it over the .223 even with its perceived inadequacies.

Humans just don't kill that easily. We can take a lot of damage outside of a few critical spots on the body. It has less to do with the specific cartridge and more to do with finding those spots.

42 posted on 06/07/2006 6:17:37 PM PDT by tortoise
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To: fso301

Yes, I am aware of this and also aware of the B-52s he had destroyed also!


43 posted on 06/07/2006 6:17:45 PM PDT by calex59 (The '86 amensty put us in the toilet, now the senate wants to flush it!)
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To: Cobra64

Basically, hollow points.


44 posted on 06/07/2006 6:18:47 PM PDT by ButThreeLeftsDo (Carry Daily, Apply Sparingly.)
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To: Cobra64
What, exactly is a dum-dum bullet?

The 'dum-dum' was a British military bullet developed for use in India - at the Dum-Dum Arsenal - on the North West Frontier in the late 1890s.

The dum-dum comprised a jacketed .303 bullet with the jacket nose open to expose its lead core. The aim was to improve the bullet's effectiveness by increasing its expansion upon impact.

The phrase 'dum-dum' was later taken to include any soft-nosed or hollow pointed bullet. The Hague Convention of 1899 outlawed the use of dum-dum bullets during warfare.

Dum-Dum

45 posted on 06/07/2006 6:18:51 PM PDT by fso301
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To: Flavius

"But, being this is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world, and would blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself one question: "Do I feel lucky?" Well, do ya punk?"


46 posted on 06/07/2006 6:19:10 PM PDT by phil1750 (Love like you've never been hurt;Dance like nobody's watching;PRAY like it's your last prayer)
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To: Cobra64

Goes back to the Boer War. Esentially a hollow tip round. Back then it was the .303.

The were outlawed and replaced by the full metal jacketed round.


47 posted on 06/07/2006 6:20:26 PM PDT by Mikey_1962 (If you build it, they won't come...)
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To: jmc1969
As American troop casualties in Iraq continue to mount,

They just had to include that subliminal message, didn't they? Get the infants who have no knowledge of history or warfare to believe that Iraq is a holocaust.

48 posted on 06/07/2006 6:20:42 PM PDT by Jeff Chandler (Build the fence. Sí, Se Puede!)
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To: redgolum
.223 is an excellent varmint round, but illegal to use on deer sized game in most states. I have often wondered about that.

That is because they restrict cartridges by caliber. They do not want someone using a .22LR (though I have seen deer killed with it, and always one shot). For example, the 64gr PowerPoint load in .223 will work on almost anything a .308 will, and is plenty of cartridge for deer. Bullet construction makes a difference.

To put it in perspective, we are talking differences in diameter of a few hundredths of an inch -- other factors will dominate.

49 posted on 06/07/2006 6:22:16 PM PDT by tortoise
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To: Marius3188
History often repeats itself when fighting Muslims or fanatics. The .45 round was created to put down people like that.

Yep, it was to put down Moro muslims in the Philippine War.

50 posted on 06/07/2006 6:22:38 PM PDT by Jeff Chandler (Build the fence. Sí, Se Puede!)
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