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Concern Growing Over U.S. Troops' Ammo
CBS News ^ | June 7 2006

Posted on 06/07/2006 5:42:42 PM PDT by jmc1969

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To: ButThreeLeftsDo

Hydra Shoks were brilliant technology when they came out. But, that was nearly 2 decades ago. There's much better stuff out there today.


101 posted on 06/07/2006 7:08:59 PM PDT by MyDogAllah
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To: Firefigher NC

I vote for the OLD (but an updated auto-fire version) of the 8MM Mauser. Maybe even shorten it...build the case of aluminum.


102 posted on 06/07/2006 7:12:27 PM PDT by Mariner
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To: Leisler
"The Army has been scientifically doing studies, taking reports and digging bullets out of bodies for 60 years now."

Everytime I wonder why they use the 5.56 that fact always comes to mind. There are other factors to consider aside from the ballistics. I suppose this is why we see the same arguments between .45 vs the 9MM for close quarters combat. Sure the .45 is superior for stopping power, but the 9MM can be used for both MP5s and sidearms. That allows them to carry the same ammo for two weapons. Of course they could use .45 subguns and pistols, or even .40s, but you get the idea. Logistics are an important consideration, and weight is one of those considerations, as you said.

103 posted on 06/07/2006 7:16:28 PM PDT by KoRn
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To: MyDogAllah

Personally, I use Hornady XTPs.


104 posted on 06/07/2006 7:16:53 PM PDT by Antoninus II
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To: MyDogAllah

The instructors at the local range/school said: "Ask your local LEO's what they carry", when questioned about what to load into a personal carry weapon. They showed me their HS ammo and I assumed that it would do the job, if need be.

Can't get what the sky marshals carry, or so I was told..;-)


105 posted on 06/07/2006 7:17:53 PM PDT by ButThreeLeftsDo (Carry Daily, Apply Sparingly.)
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To: redgolum

Oh yea that is the high powered so called assault weapons that are to evil and bad for civilians to use.


106 posted on 06/07/2006 7:18:39 PM PDT by therut
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To: KoRn

The SOG troops that "didn't" go into Cambodia and Laos carried the super-short CAR-15s with at least 12 30rd mags plus all their gear. Try that with anything chambered in a 30 cal rd.


107 posted on 06/07/2006 7:20:03 PM PDT by Antoninus II
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To: Smokin' Joe
This is the Haditha one-two. If the holes in the victims are from AK-47's, the press is laying the groudwork to say the Marines did it anyway. Plain and simple, folks.

Good call.

108 posted on 06/07/2006 7:20:14 PM PDT by Rodney King (No, we can't all just get along.)
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To: jmc1969

I'm confused. When the Beltway sniper used either 5.56 or .223 Remington, it was an ultra-high power assault caliber of doom that was far too lethal to be in the hands of mere civilians according to the media. Now the same media tells me it is an ineffective poodle shooter. I'm so confused.


109 posted on 06/07/2006 7:20:17 PM PDT by RogueIsland (.)
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To: jmc1969
There have been several stories of our guys finding syringes and empty vials of Novocaine around the bodies of terrorists. Drugs are probably a factor.
110 posted on 06/07/2006 7:20:58 PM PDT by Northern Alliance
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To: Jeff Chandler
AK-47 7.62mm round has much the same ballistics of the 30-30; drops about six inches at 100 yards and is not lethal at that distance - ask any deer hunter. I know, there are some that are in love with the Winchester lever action, but it's only good in brush country where a shotgun will serve just as good. Anyway, I vote for the Seals weapon of choice which is a chopped down M-14 which shoots the 7.62 NATO/308 civilian round. This round has about the same punch as the tried and tested 306 Springfield but is lighter than the standard issue M-14. Btw, I was in the Nam in the early days (65-66) and started out packing a M-14 and was really happy when my unit switched to the M-16 even though it couldn't "reach out and touch someone" like the M-14.
111 posted on 06/07/2006 7:21:43 PM PDT by snoringbear
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To: SJackson

Head shot man. I shot a squirrel with a bigger caliber than that. Head shot. Easy with a scoped rifle although illegal for hunting. No lead to break your teeth on unless you are one of those who suck squirrel brains.


112 posted on 06/07/2006 7:22:31 PM PDT by therut
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To: jmc1969

Hold on now! Is this change in ammo, going to violate the rights of the terrorists?


113 posted on 06/07/2006 7:28:21 PM PDT by SMM48
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To: Ben Hecks

ping


114 posted on 06/07/2006 7:28:50 PM PDT by Chicos_Bail_Bonds
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To: jmc1969

5.56 mm is not the only ammo on the battlefield.


115 posted on 06/07/2006 7:29:19 PM PDT by ChadGore (VISUALIZE 62,041,268 Bush fans. We Vote.)
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To: Oshkalaboomboom
Placement has always been critical to putting down an assailant quickly and efficiently.

That has always been my argument when some around here poo-poos a .38 or 9mm stating that they are baby rounds and the .45acp is the only caliber of choice.`

116 posted on 06/07/2006 7:45:05 PM PDT by Cobra64 (All we get are lame ideas from Republicans and lame criticism from dems about those lame ideas.)
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To: Firefigher NC

I agree the ammo is light, but if it takes 5-6 hits to kill, then a soldier will need to carry 5-6 times more ammo than with a rifle with better stopping power.


117 posted on 06/07/2006 7:45:56 PM PDT by Mister Da (The mark of a wise man is not what he knows, but what he knows he doesn't know!)
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To: Antoninus II

I purchased a Garand from CMP...I love it. What a beautiful weapon.


118 posted on 06/07/2006 7:56:25 PM PDT by rlmorel ("Innocence seldom utters outraged shrieks. Guilt does." Whittaker Chambers)
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To: jmc1969

**concern is growing they may be outgunned. That includes new questions about the stopping power of the ammunition that is used by the standard-issue M-16 rifle. ***

We were telling them that 42 years ago!

Only when owned by American citizens does the ammo suddenly become "too powerful"! Just ask the anti-gun people.


119 posted on 06/07/2006 8:05:51 PM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar
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To: demlosers

***Most likely high on drugs;***

Juramentados!


120 posted on 06/07/2006 8:08:45 PM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar
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To: Cobra64

**What, exactly is a dum-dum bullet?***

It is a soft nosed bullet manufactured by the British government at the Dum-Dum arsenal in India.

Only a journalist or a fiction writer refers to a sawed or filed off tip of a full metal jacket bullet as a "dum-dum.





121 posted on 06/07/2006 8:19:47 PM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar
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To: Firefigher NC

OK, lets go back and look at the history of the M16/Stoner/Armalite. The round used is a full metal jacket, but the jacket is extremely thin. Upon impact, the jacket disintegrates and the bullet explodes. That's why entry wounds are tiny, but exit wounds are the size of a fist.

This weapon was specifically designed to circumvent the Geneva Convention prohibitting the use of dum-dum/hollow point ammunition, I believe after WW1.

The beauty of this weapon is that because the bullet loses form on impact, it has the stopping power of larger rounds. Therefore, troops could carry around much larger amounts of ammo without the added weight. Stoner was brilliant.

When your enemy is drugged out on hashish and narcotics, its gonna take a lot to put him down. Unless you hit a vital organ it could be tough. I am reminded of the movie Scarface where Pacino is shot over and over again and goes on mowing down his attacker, till someone comes up and shoots him in the head with a shotgun.


122 posted on 06/07/2006 8:30:42 PM PDT by appeal2
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To: MyDogAllah
Hydra Shoks were brilliant technology when they came out. But, that was nearly 2 decades ago. There's much better stuff out there today.

What do you think of Speer Gold Dot versus Remington Golden Sabres?

123 posted on 06/07/2006 8:38:12 PM PDT by Cobra64 (All we get are lame ideas from Republicans and lame criticism from dems about those lame ideas.)
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To: jmc1969

Give our men 30 cals. (7.62 mm) again, then. All who cannot handle those rounds can be REMFs.


124 posted on 06/07/2006 8:39:22 PM PDT by familyop ("Either you're with us, or your with the terrorists." --pre-Roadmap President Bush)
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To: jmc1969

Yep, .223 is too small. What I can't figure out is why anybody is treating this as a new concern.


125 posted on 06/07/2006 8:42:20 PM PDT by Mr. Silverback (Try Jesus--If you don't like Him, satan will always take you back.)
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To: Marius3188
The .45 round was created to put down people like that.

Too quote one of my favorite movie characters..."I prefer the Thompson."

126 posted on 06/07/2006 8:44:53 PM PDT by Mr. Silverback (Try Jesus--If you don't like Him, satan will always take you back.)
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar
I know that. My question was a rhetorical one and a spoof. I use Remington Golden Saber ammo.


127 posted on 06/07/2006 8:46:22 PM PDT by Cobra64 (All we get are lame ideas from Republicans and lame criticism from dems about those lame ideas.)
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To: Flavius

Can someone please explain to me how a frangible bullet could penetrate steel plate?

Mark


128 posted on 06/07/2006 8:54:35 PM PDT by MarkL (When Kaylee says "No power in the `verse can stop me," it's cute. When River says it, it's scary!)
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To: montomike
I have a Mini-30 and I really love it. My little brother has a Mini-14. That's why I call him my little bro!

I've got a Federal Ordinance M-14S, as well as a Mini-14. They look so cute together!

Mark

129 posted on 06/07/2006 8:58:00 PM PDT by MarkL (When Kaylee says "No power in the `verse can stop me," it's cute. When River says it, it's scary!)
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To: Smokin' Joe
If the holes in the victims are from AK-47's, the press is laying the groudwork to say the Marines did it anyway. Plain and simple, folks.

I think you're right.

130 posted on 06/07/2006 9:02:55 PM PDT by Mr. Silverback (Try Jesus--If you don't like Him, satan will always take you back.)
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To: frankiep

Since I know about other stuff like McNamara pushing the F-111 because he liked GD's new computerized supply inventory system, it wouldn't surprise me if your M-16 story is true.


131 posted on 06/07/2006 9:07:02 PM PDT by Mr. Silverback (Try Jesus--If you don't like Him, satan will always take you back.)
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To: frankiep

The General - C. LaMay, owner/operator of SAC, back in the "old" USAF.


132 posted on 06/07/2006 9:09:11 PM PDT by ASOC (Choose between the lesser of two evils and in the end, you still have, well, evil.)
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To: Smokin' Joe

"This is the Haditha one-two. If the holes in the victims are from AK-47's, the press is laying the groudwork to say the Marines did it anyway. Plain and simple, folks."

Good catch BUMP!


133 posted on 06/07/2006 9:10:18 PM PDT by LibertarianInExile ('Is' and 'amnesty' both have clear, plain meanings. Are Bill, McQueeg and the President related?)
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To: jmc1969
"The lack of the lethality of that bullet has caused United States soldiers to die," says Maj. Anthony Milavic. Milavic is a retired Marine major who saw three tours of duty in Vietnam. He says the small-caliber 5.56, essentially a .22-caliber civilian bullet, is far better suited for shooting squirrels than the enemy, and contends that urban warfare in Iraq demands a bigger bullet. "A bullet that knocks the man down with one shot," he says. "And keeps him down."

Good. It's about time this PC groundhog round got the slamming it deserves. Go back to something in .30 caliber.

134 posted on 06/07/2006 9:13:36 PM PDT by metalurgist (Believe in my God or I will kill you! The cry of all religious extremists.)
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To: CrawDaddyCA

LOL, they aren't in storage! Those M-14's are being used as sniper rifles.

The unit that replaced us had about 10 M-14's and a couple of the Barrett 50 cals. They were an Mountain Infantry company, but we had all of the M9's that did more to stop Iraqi's than any other weapon system...cuz EVERONE in Iraq was scared of the pistol. (even crappy M-9's)


135 posted on 06/07/2006 9:21:49 PM PDT by SFC Chromey (We are at war with Islamofascism, now ACT LIKE IT, PRESIDENT BUSH!)
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To: 1rudeboy
Stoopid gun n00b question: if I wanted to purchase a M-14, what is the closest I can get legally? Make, models, and availability please.

Check Springfield Armory or Fulton for the M1A. Multiple configurations and prices are available. The principle difference is the M1A is semi-auto only. M14 was select fire. Pricing varies based on barrel quality, stock quality, embedding or not of the action in the stock.

136 posted on 06/07/2006 9:22:27 PM PDT by Myrddin
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To: SFC Chromey
Those M-14's are being used as sniper rifles.

That's great to hear. Haven't they renamed the M-14 to the M-21, or something like that?

137 posted on 06/07/2006 9:24:36 PM PDT by CrawDaddyCA (Free Travis McGee!!)
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To: jmc1969

THE MILITARY HAS BEEN AWARE OF THE 5.56MM FOR QUITE SOME TIME. ITS LEATHALITY IS LIMITED BY DISTANCE AND AS TO THE MENTAL STATE OF THE PERSON BEING SHOT. APPARENTLY THE TERRORISTS BULK UP ON HASH AND KAT BEFORE BATTLE. IN ORDER TO BRING THEM DOWN A LARGER CALIBER AND WEIGHTIER BULLET IS REQUIRED. THE MARINE CORPS DEVELOPED THE 6.8MM ROUND. THIS IS SIMILIAR TO THE .270 CAL. THE NEW ROUND IS ALMOST DOUBLE THE WEIGHT OF THE 5.56MM.
IT IS LETHAL OUT TO 500 METERS AND CLOSE UP DOES A GREAT JOB. THE CHANGE OVER IS SIMPLE AND ONLY REQUIRES THE REPLACEMENT OF THE UPPER RECEIVER. YET THE MILITARY IS HESITANT TO USE IT.
FOR YOUR INFORMATION THE M1 GARAND WAS ORIGINALLY CHAMBERED IN .270 CAL. GEN. MACARTHUR QUASHED ITS USE BECAUSE WE HAD TOO MUCH .30 CAL AMMO LEFT OVER FROM WWI.


138 posted on 06/07/2006 9:25:13 PM PDT by Doc91678 (Doc91678)
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To: CrawDaddyCA

LOL, not the ones these boys had. They were NG out of NH and the weapons they had were seriously Vietnam vintage. The wooden stocks were about as weathered as the porch of the farmhouse my dad grew up on.


139 posted on 06/07/2006 9:35:08 PM PDT by SFC Chromey (We are at war with Islamofascism, now ACT LIKE IT, PRESIDENT BUSH!)
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To: frankiep

The story I read was the M16 was a very good weapon that didn't jam (yes I can hear everyone gnashing their teeth). However, when the army got a hold of it they used a lower class of gunpowder that didn't burn as hot and clean and made some other modifications. The army brought the inventor to their lab to ask why they were having problems. His reply, " I don't know, that isn't the weapon I gave you." or something to that effect. I believe it.
If you were in the army back in the 90s, look at the pt sweats. Did those things fit anyone right. I could never understand why the army couldn't just go to Nike or some other company that made sweats and have them put US Army on it.


140 posted on 06/07/2006 9:46:40 PM PDT by art_rocks
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To: art_rocks

hehe. Yeah, I hated the PT sweats. I'm not that tall but aftr wearing them a few times the pants would only go down to my shins. It they were alot of fun when they got wet from rolling around on the ground after it rained. I tell ya, I spent nine years in the Army and am grateful for the experiences I had, but I will definitely NOT miss the never ending stream of stupidity I had to face during those years.


141 posted on 06/07/2006 10:46:36 PM PDT by frankiep (Visualize Whirled Peas)
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To: Cobra64
What do you think of Speer Gold Dot versus Remington Golden Sabres?

Gold Dots are generally better, but the Golden Sabers are not bad at all. The latter tends to expand faster.

The thing about Gold Dots is that they give very consistent performance across a wide range of conditions. They do not expand as much as some others like Golden Sabers, but they also rarely fail and work just fine through clothing, car doors, and just about anything else you can throw at them.

Since we do not get to choose the conditions under which a cartridge is used when things get ugly, I prefer reliable terminal performance under broad conditions over slightly better terminal performance in narrow conditions.

142 posted on 06/07/2006 10:55:12 PM PDT by tortoise
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To: tortoise
I'll add that the flexibility of Gold Dots is not in the range of velocities they work well at but in the kinds of stuff you can shoot through and still get solid terminal performance in the target. Last I checked, Gold Dots worked best in faster loads, but they have modified the design over time I think to allow the design to work better over broader velocity range (e.g. for .45).

I've used everything under the sun, and honestly I do not think it makes that much difference in an unobstructed shot, which most are. I tend to go with Gold Dots because of their reliability through weird materials, their relative inexpensiveness, and because the bullet design is a good match for my cartridge preference (165gr .40).

143 posted on 06/07/2006 11:07:32 PM PDT by tortoise
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To: jmc1969
Well, we've all seen this debate before. While I've never shot a human, I've shot my fair share of 160-180 lb. deer, which have a chest cavity the same size as a human.

I've shot them with an arrow in the lungs, had them run 50 yards and fall over dead. I've shot them with a 12 ga. 3" slug at 10 yards (and there is no better stopping power than a 3" slug at 10 yards), ripping off the upper half of the heart as determined when field dressing them, and had said deer run 200 yards while crossing two steep ravines.

I've also shot deer with a .30-06 through the lungs and had them run 150 yards. I've shot deer in the same spot and had them drop instantly and never move

So, since the arrow-shot deer dropped the quicker than the one hit with a massive 3" slug, should we assume that the arrow has better stopping power?

Nope, we should assume that shot placement is a key factor in stopping power. We should also recognize that NOTHING guarantees an instant stop. You should continue to fire until the target drops. Even with their heart destroyed (and I mean literally shot to pieces), I've seen deer run like they were not even hit. Adrenaline is an amazing drug and animals (humans included) can absorb tremendous punishment.

As the orignal article pointed out, they shot a guy 7 times in the torso and finally shot him in the head with a pistol to kill him. So, why not shoot him once in the torso and six times in the head? As my hunting experience has shown, the torso is not a guranteed stopping shot. Destroying the brain, on the other hand, will cause a loss of conciousness and will work much more effectively.

I'm sorry to hear that soldiers feel undergunned. I can only say that if a 12-gauge 3" slug at point-blank range will not drop a deer instantly (and they will not always do that) then the argument about .223 versus .308 is a ridiculous one to have. You just have to hope that your first shot hits the target in a way that they drop in their tracks. I'd say the odds of that are about 50/50, even with a cannon like a 12-gauge.

144 posted on 06/07/2006 11:20:20 PM PDT by Panzerfaust
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To: KoRn
I have an HK-91 that can hold 30 rounds of .308 and beats the sh1t out of the M16 or any M4 variant. Heaven forbid a soldier is firing on an enemy who is behind thin glass or standing behind a small tree when they are plinking at them with what is essentially a .22 on steroids lol

In the winter of 1938-1939, the Russians found out the hard way that in close fighting, the Finnish submachineguns with their "weak" rounds killed more Russians even though the Russians had the "powerful" 7.62x54r.

A couple years later, the Germans found out the hard way that their powerful 8mm was of little use if the soldier couldn't put his head up to fire because the air was full of "puny" PPsh-41 7.62x25 rounds that would in close combat kill a man just as dead as if hit by the 8mm or, Russian 7.62x54r.

145 posted on 06/08/2006 6:53:37 AM PDT by fso301
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To: Cobra64
[What do you think of Speer Gold Dot versus Remington Golden Sabres?]

What caliber? What weight?

I think that if you're that far into the debate already, you need someone who knows a lot more about them than me.

Try Dr. Gary Roberts or Dr. Martin Fackler.

I'm pretty sure that Roberts, at least, will tell you that both Gold Dot and Golden Sabre are top of the line and you should pick whatever works reliably in your pistols. (Or, you can do what I do, and buy whichever I can get on sale, LOL!)

Good shooting, Cobra64!
146 posted on 06/08/2006 12:44:37 PM PDT by MyDogAllah
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To: MarkL
Can someone please explain to me how a frangible bullet could penetrate steel plate?

Probably the same way as the Black Rhino did about a decade ago.

147 posted on 06/08/2006 3:57:20 PM PDT by supercat (Sony delenda est.)
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To: Perdogg
The 7.62mm X 51mm round is overkill for CQB

Agreed. The Russians found that out the hard way against the Finns in the 1938-1939 Winter War. The Germans didn't pay attention to the Russo-Finnish War and as a result, were taught a hard lesson by the Russians that in CQB, a 7.62x25 will kill you just as dead as a 7.62x56r or 7.92.

148 posted on 06/08/2006 5:12:59 PM PDT by fso301
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To: Parmy
All you have to do is shave the point a little. This will cause the bullet to deflect at an angle upon impact. So, rather than a thru and thru, the bullet travels a random path through the target.

Before trusting your life to such technique, I'd strongly suggest that you try that out on the range first and see if you can even hit the target board with the "customized" unbalanced ammo.

149 posted on 06/08/2006 5:17:00 PM PDT by fso301
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To: tortoise

Give a look at the .45 Winchester Magnum carbine, developed by 3-Ten corporation.

The president of that company just got a rejection letter from Picatinny Arsenal. Reason for rejection: the round is not a "type classified caliber."

Now, tell me if Picatinny is taking care of the soldiers.

Try giving a look at www.3-ten.com

I would carry the 3-ten.

Regards,

Ernesto


150 posted on 06/11/2006 6:39:47 PM PDT by ernestoguevara
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