Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Concern Growing Over U.S. Troops' Ammo
CBS News ^ | June 7 2006

Posted on 06/07/2006 5:42:42 PM PDT by jmc1969

click here to read article


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-5051-100101-150151 next last
To: montomike
I like Ruger's Mini's. A good, tried and true Garand action. Their problem is the thin barrel. Just takes a couple of rounds to get super hot.

I think this whole issue boils down to training and shooting discipline. Practice, practice, practice. A well placed shot, even 22 rimfire, is deadly. The old "spray and pray" method just doesn't get it.

51 posted on 06/07/2006 6:22:47 PM PDT by Antoninus II
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: Firefigher NC
".308 would be my caliber of choice."

My first thoughts exactly. Fighting with a higher grain faster .22 has always seemed illogical to me. .308 is a far superior caliber to the 5.56

52 posted on 06/07/2006 6:24:54 PM PDT by KoRn
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Mikey_1962
I have a M-1 Carbine as well. Cheap ammo, fun to shoot.

Not as cheap as it used to be. And I don't know about you, but I find the sight picture on the carbine aperture to be much easier to shoot accurately. I'm a much better shot with the 30.

53 posted on 06/07/2006 6:26:12 PM PDT by Antoninus II
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 41 | View Replies]

To: frankiep
On another note, the M16 would be the perfect weapon for our enemies to use against us. The premise is that the M16 will not kill, but rather wound and incapacitate a combatant. The result is that you take out two soldiers for every one hit - the second one being taken out of the fray to attend to his wounded comrade. Like I said, it would be a perfect tactic to use against us since those in the US military do all they can to never leave a wounded man behind. However, the enemies we face today have no problems purposely blowing themselves up. Frankly, the two for one tactic will not work against people who don't care for human life and are eager to die.

Worse: They can take advantage of the US adhering to the Geneva Convention. If one of theirs is wounded, they can simply leave him behind, and let the US care for him, further straining US resources.

54 posted on 06/07/2006 6:27:09 PM PDT by SauronOfMordor (A planned society is most appealing to those with the arrogance to think they will be the planners)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: calex59
Stoopid gun n00b question: if I wanted to purchase a M-14, what is the closest I can get legally? Make, models, and availability please.
55 posted on 06/07/2006 6:27:30 PM PDT by 1rudeboy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: jmc1969
If you get shot in the torso with a 5.56, and you don't go into surgery, you're going to die. On soft tissue, which is %99 percent water, the 5.56, and others rounds like it, produces two distinct holes or tracts. The first is the rip of the path of the bullet. You can carefully follow this with a soft wire probe. In one end, out the other. But what does you in is the speed of the round through the fluid of the flesh leaving a about a 1 and a half diameter tube, that follows the bullet path. All that flesh has the texture of strawberry jam. Muscle, organs, blood vessels are goop, trash, debris and on their way to cell death. They can not be saved. This tissue is mechanically removed, gooped, spooned, scraped, cut out.

In a phrase, it isn't the bullet, it's the speed that gets you.

As far as stopping, only a shot to the upper spine or brain pan is certain. Maybe a shot to the hart, or carotid artery, producing violet blood pressure spike and drop such that the brain feels as if it was hit by a baseball bat. Maybe. A lot of what is thought as knock down is due to the bullet shock wave passing or distroying a major nerve, and/or that nerve sending a major jolt to the brain causing the body to spass often on the run. Hence a tumble fall. Hunters know this from deer dropping and recovering and getting up again. The actual physics energy/force imparted by a bullet into the mass of a 150lb person is minimal. There are no/none/zero 'knock downs' by bullets a la bowling ball to bowling pins.



Sniper biographies are full of reports of clear shots to the upper body with 7.72 type rounds and the subject continuing along, seemingly untouched. Vietnam biographies are full of guys fighting for their lives and once they make it into a helicopter, they found they've been shot by SKS/AK rounds five or more times and thought they got hit once.

Other than the .50, I don't know of a rifle round in common military use that will "knock down" consistently a young male on adrenaline.

The military can get a new round, but the reports will continue coming in. I'd rather see the money spent on each soldier/marine shooting thousands of rounds on moving targets on realistic ranges with their full kit, hot, sweating, tired, pulse rate up, after they have been up for a day or so.
56 posted on 06/07/2006 6:27:37 PM PDT by Leisler (Not all Muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are Muslim.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: jmc1969

Bump for later reading. I have heard a lot of grunts and former grunts complaining about the stopping power of the M-16.


57 posted on 06/07/2006 6:28:06 PM PDT by Ronin (Ut iusta esse, lex noblis severus necesse est.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: calex59
"Bring back the M-14 with 3 round fire capability! 7.62 will put them down to stay!"

I have an HK-91 that can hold 30 rounds of .308 and beats the sh1t out of the M16 or any M4 variant. Heaven forbid a soldier is firing on an enemy who is behind thin glass or standing behind a small tree when they are plinking at them with what is essentially a .22 on steroids lol

58 posted on 06/07/2006 6:28:28 PM PDT by KoRn
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: jmc1969
"News" it isn't, and if CBS doesn't know that they're entirely uninformed on firearms iss...

Oh, yeah. Never mind.

One of the biggest impediments to effective engagement of enemy combatants in various states of armor, cover, and concealment, is that no matter which caliber we select we are stuck with full metal jacket ammunition. I think it's time to revisit that issue. Certainly there is inhumane ammo - during the Civil War some of it had glass embedded - but expanding ammunition is not inherently inhumane and for the shooter is much safer than boring little holes in a doped-up jihadi who continues to come at you.

A new caliber will help as well, IMHO. We stuck with the 30-06 for a half-century and the 5.56 is nearly that long in the tooth. Warfare has changed and "one size fits all" isn't, given the sophistication of modern-day logistics, necessarily the right answer even for main-line troopers, and certainly not for special operations types.

It pains me to say it, but perhaps some of the funding currently given over to Palestinian aid and sex-change operations for imprisoned felons might be directed toward a decent research program on this topic. We aren't looking at beating the swords into plowshares anytime soon.

59 posted on 06/07/2006 6:29:19 PM PDT by Billthedrill
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Mikey_1962
You can get an M1 Garand from ODCMP and match ammo to.
60 posted on 06/07/2006 6:29:45 PM PDT by mountainlyons (Hard core conservative)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: Jeff Chandler

During World War 2 the Army did ballistic tests on all sorts of cartridges from big bore to timed explosive bullets. Their research found that it didn't really matter what type of bullet you used, the only way to put a man down reliably was to shoot him in one of 3 places:

1. The head
2. The spine
3. The long bones of the leg

It doesn't mean a bigger bullet won't kill an assailant. It concluded that yes, 3-4 shots to the chest will kill a man eventually but a .22 to the head had essentially the same effect as blowing it off with a shotgun. Placement has always been critical to putting down an assailant quickly and efficiently.


61 posted on 06/07/2006 6:30:15 PM PDT by Oshkalaboomboom
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 50 | View Replies]

To: frankiep

30-06


62 posted on 06/07/2006 6:31:11 PM PDT by oyez (Appeasement is insanity)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: Leisler
The military can get a new round, but the reports will continue coming in. I'd rather see the money spent on each soldier/marine shooting thousands of rounds on moving targets on realistic ranges with their full kit, hot, sweating, tired, pulse rate up, after they have been up for a day or so.

What you said. At the end of the day, it comes down to who can put the most rounds on target the fastest. Nothing else matters.

63 posted on 06/07/2006 6:31:27 PM PDT by tortoise
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 56 | View Replies]

To: Flavius

Why does this round remind me of the "Black Rhino"?


64 posted on 06/07/2006 6:31:48 PM PDT by supercat (Sony delenda est.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: 1rudeboy

Springfield armory used to make one, called the M-1A. Semi auto version, had the magazine etc. Was esentially for targets but looked almost like the real deal and was very expensive. Don't know if they still make it or not. Probably good google and find out fast enough.:)


65 posted on 06/07/2006 6:32:26 PM PDT by calex59 (The '86 amensty put us in the toilet, now the senate wants to flush it!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 55 | View Replies]

To: Oshkalaboomboom
It doesn't mean a bigger bullet won't kill an assailant. It concluded that yes, 3-4 shots to the chest will kill a man eventually but a .22 to the head had essentially the same effect as blowing it off with a shotgun. Placement has always been critical to putting down an assailant quickly and efficiently.

BINGO! You hit the nail on the head!!

66 posted on 06/07/2006 6:32:55 PM PDT by Antoninus II
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 61 | View Replies]

To: Mikey_1962
Today, we use these:

With this effect:


67 posted on 06/07/2006 6:33:21 PM PDT by Cobra64 (All we get are lame ideas from Republicans and lame criticism from dems about those lame ideas.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 47 | View Replies]

To: jmc1969
Some of the reasoning behind the 5.56 is that only shots to a few places in the human body by either a 5.56 or .30 caliber will instantly drop an adversary dead or paralyzed. Hits to many other parts of the body by either round will be fatal but not immediately.

The wound channel created by the .30 will cause the adversary to bleed out faster that if hit by the 5.56 but it's during this time that the adversary has been mortally wounded but isn't yet dead that they can deliver their parting shots.

As anyone who has hunted deer knows, a deer hit in the lungs and heart by a 30-06 180gr soft point at close range can still run 50-100 yards before going down. Replace the soft point with a ball round and the mortally wounded deer can run even farther before going down.

68 posted on 06/07/2006 6:33:28 PM PDT by fso301
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Mikey_1962

[I have had my eyes on my brother's M-1 Garand for years but the only way he'll give it up is after the death grip has gone.]

For a fraction of the cost of either your Mini 14 or CAR-15, you can buy a WW2 vintage M1 Garand straight from the US gubbermint through the Civilian Marksmanship Program. Prices start at just $295.

Imagine that! A gubbermint program that actually benefits American shooters and promotes shooting!

Search out Civilian Marksmanship Program for the details.


69 posted on 06/07/2006 6:34:58 PM PDT by MyDogAllah
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: Mikey_1962

M-1 Garand. Now, THAT'S a rifle! .30-'06 rocks!!!


70 posted on 06/07/2006 6:35:31 PM PDT by GW and Twins Pawpaw (Sheepdog for Five [My grandkids are way more important than any lefty's feelings!])
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: ButThreeLeftsDo; All
I know. It was a rhetorical question. I use Remington Golden Saber or Speer Gold Dot.


71 posted on 06/07/2006 6:35:51 PM PDT by Cobra64 (All we get are lame ideas from Republicans and lame criticism from dems about those lame ideas.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 44 | View Replies]

To: KoRn
Heaven forbid a soldier is firing on an enemy who is behind thin glass or standing behind a small tree when they are plinking at them with what is essentially a .22 on steroids

Penetration is a function of velocity and sectional density -- caliber has nothing to do with it. The standard .223 M855 cartridge will out-penetrate the standard .308 ball in the real world.

The physics is not all that intuitive. Haven't you ever wondered why a short-action 6.5mm is rated for moose but a .308 isn't?

72 posted on 06/07/2006 6:36:13 PM PDT by tortoise
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 58 | View Replies]

To: jmc1969

Lets give 'em real guns and quit messin' around! 308 or 30-06


73 posted on 06/07/2006 6:37:00 PM PDT by Minutemen ("It's a Religion of Peace")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: jmc1969
Ummmm....did I hear this same argument - oh, about 38 years ago?...

Nah!
Must be old age creeping up on me...

That or some analyst's conviction that cost/weight always trumps stopping power.

(Actually, I'm OK with current .223 as available to civilians, the old 5.5 whatever ball stuff has hopefully been shot out and upgraded by now.)

74 posted on 06/07/2006 6:38:02 PM PDT by norton
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: fso301
Like this? LOL. My question was a rhetorical one. I haven't heard the expression "dum-dum" since I was a kid back in the 1950s.


75 posted on 06/07/2006 6:38:54 PM PDT by Cobra64 (All we get are lame ideas from Republicans and lame criticism from dems about those lame ideas.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 45 | View Replies]

To: MyDogAllah

For a fraction of the cost of either your Mini 14 or CAR-15, you can buy a WW2 vintage M1 Garand straight from the US gubbermint through the Civilian Marksmanship Program. Prices start at just $295.

That's AWESOME!!! Definitely have to look into that.

76 posted on 06/07/2006 6:40:01 PM PDT by frankiep (Visualize Whirled Peas)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 69 | View Replies]

To: Cobra64

Gotcha....

;-)


77 posted on 06/07/2006 6:43:04 PM PDT by ButThreeLeftsDo (Carry Daily, Apply Sparingly.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 75 | View Replies]

To: Flavius

Stan Bulmer, Le Mas, RBCD, and their "blended metal bullets" (which actually contain ZERO blended metals) have all been totally and completely discredited by the best American ballistic scientists.

These magical, unicorn-mutilating bullets are all hype. Anyone who buys Bulmer's double speak probably also believed the "I did not have sex with that woman, Ms. Lewinsky" lie, as well.

The best performing 5.56 round is the Hornady TAP. RBCD doesn't even come close.


78 posted on 06/07/2006 6:43:39 PM PDT by MyDogAllah
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: Cobra64

I'm a Hydra-Shok guy, myself.

They're all good.


79 posted on 06/07/2006 6:44:12 PM PDT by ButThreeLeftsDo (Carry Daily, Apply Sparingly.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 75 | View Replies]

To: All

Default Army study affirms effectiveness of M855 5.56mm ammo
PICATINNY ARSENAL, N.J. -- The Army has completed a detailed study of the effectiveness of its standard-issue M855 5.56mm ammunition cartridge that is used in the M16 and the M4 rifles.

The study found no significant difference between the M855 and commercially available 5.56mm rounds during close fighting.

A team of military, scientific, medical, engineering and law enforcement experts conducted the study for the Army’s Project Manager, Maneuver Ammunition Systems located here.

“All of the rounds studied performed in a band of effectiveness that will produce excellent results in real-life situations,” Col. Mark D. Rider said.

The study sought to answer whether any commercial, off-the-shelf 5.56mm bullets that perform better than M855 against unarmored targets in Close Quarters Battle might be available.

It was limited further to determining if the Army could quickly purchase and field a possible replacement for the M855 and did not consider replacing the current inventory of 5.56mm weapons with weapons of another caliber.

“This was not a caliber study” Rider said. “However, it did find that the current family of 5.56mm weapons and the older 7.62mm M14 have the same potential effectiveness in the hands of a Warfighter during the heat of battle.”

The study also showed an increase in lethal potential when the marksmanship technique of firing controlled pairs, i.e. firing two rounds in rapid succession, was used.

Rider said the Army will continue to study variations in performance that some Soldiers and Marines to criticize the M855 while the overall majority are satisfied with its effectiveness.

He also noted that researchers believe that interaction between the weapon and the bullet may be the root cause of “through-and-through.”

In arriving at these conclusions, the team developed ground-breaking tools and methodologies that apply sophisticated modeling and equipment normally reserved for the study of high-dollar systems such as tanks and artillery to less costly weapons for the very first time.

As a result, new standards for testing small caliber ammunition are emerging that will help bring the science of more costly system to individual weapon.

Rider said that his organization is beginning to study how commercially available rounds perform against common battlefield barriers like body armor, car doors, and windshield glass compared to the M855. Answers to these questions will help improve the lethal capability of the ground forces for decades into the future, he said.


Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum


80 posted on 06/07/2006 6:44:22 PM PDT by Flavius (Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 78 | View Replies]

To: KoRn
Urban myth. I've done the test. Put a white standard torso target ten feet into North Carolina thicket. Small pines, shubs, briars. 9 out of ten fired from 50meters hit the torso. We then put the patched target so far back, maybe 50 feet. We could barely see the target and had to put it next to a tree so as not to lose it when looking down the iron sites. 6 out of 10. It might of been better as the shots were more or less blind. You could see a little white but had to guess a little bit as to where the center of the target was.
You can in the best traditions of science replicate this on your own.
81 posted on 06/07/2006 6:45:05 PM PDT by Leisler (Not all Muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are Muslim.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 58 | View Replies]

To: Firefigher NC

Do you mean caliber 7.62 mm?


82 posted on 06/07/2006 6:45:55 PM PDT by dhuffman@awod.com (The conspiracy of ignorance masquerades as common sense.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: jmc1969
Dix in "Off Limits" 1988 - "You still don't get it, do you? We're never out gunned!"
83 posted on 06/07/2006 6:46:10 PM PDT by Phlap (REDNECK@LIBARTS.EDU)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Leisler

A friend of mine's dad (now deceased) said the BAR (30-06) he carried on Iwo did a number on the Japanese that had the unfortunate occurance to find themselves in front of his muzzle! I think he said, "Not much in the way of talk-back when I hit 'em".

LLS


84 posted on 06/07/2006 6:47:11 PM PDT by LibLieSlayer (Preserve America... kill terrorists... destroy dims!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 56 | View Replies]

To: jmc1969

>>>He says the small-caliber 5.56, essentially a .22-caliber civilian bullet, and is far better suited for shooting squirrels than the enemy<<<

This can't be? The .223 round is used in several so-called "Assault Rifles" which the Drive-By Media has determined to be very dangerous weapons in the hands of anyone but their bodyguards, or the police.


85 posted on 06/07/2006 6:47:41 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: caisson71

[There is no doubt that, given the same circumstances, a 7.62 round will have more stopping power than a 5.56 round.]

Sir, please clarify the above statement.

A 7.62 round, more commonly called the .308 here in America, is a better fight stopper than the 5.56.

However, the 5.56 is superior compared to the round commonly shot by our raghead enemies, which measures 7.62 x 39.


[In the heat, over a long distance, with all the body armor used in Iraq, I'd take the M-16 where I could carry more ammo.]

Absolutely correct, sir! Me, too.


[Why do we go through this again and again? This seems more appropriate over a few beers with old soldiers and foggy memories.]

LOL!!!


86 posted on 06/07/2006 6:52:00 PM PDT by MyDogAllah
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies]

To: calex59

The 7.62mm X 51mm round is overkill for CQB

http://www.strategypage.com/dls/articles/200512022.asp


87 posted on 06/07/2006 6:52:25 PM PDT by Perdogg
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: LibLieSlayer
I had two uncles serve in the Pacific. One Marine the other Army. The Army uncle in the early 60's was offered the rights to distribute to dealers all Toyotas in New England. Told them to screw. My cousins kinda wished he hadn't.
88 posted on 06/07/2006 6:54:30 PM PDT by Leisler (Not all Muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are Muslim.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 84 | View Replies]

To: Leisler; tortoise
I won't dispute what either of you said. I own two AR15's myself(carbine and rifle), and I'm not biased against the 5.56 round, but I believe the .308 has higher destructive power against any target at longer ranges, and can maintain that power even after passing through obstructions. Sure you can hit your target through obstructions with the 5.56 but they lose lots of killing power.
89 posted on 06/07/2006 6:55:18 PM PDT by KoRn
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 81 | View Replies]

To: tortoise; saganite
That is because they restrict cartridges by caliber. They do not want someone using a .22LR (though I have seen deer killed with it, and always one shot). For example, the 64gr PowerPoint load in .223 will work on almost anything a .308 will, and is plenty of cartridge for deer. Bullet construction makes a difference

Yes, but the military primarily uses an AP bullet for the .223, so you are putting a .22 hole (with a lot less energy) through a target. If it was a Partition or a something like that, not a huge problem. But the .223 is still pretty under powered compared with the .308. In Nebraska, the regulations are not on caliber but on the amount of energy the bullet has at 100 yards. Most .308 Winchester rounds will meet the requirements (900 ft pounds at 100 yards) but unless you hand load you will find few .223's that will.

I can understand partially the reason the switch was made. You can carry a lot more ammo and there is little recoil with a .223, and yes it can eliminate a target. But with military ammo, in a kill or be killed situation, I would personally choose something a lot more powerful than a .223.

90 posted on 06/07/2006 6:55:19 PM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 49 | View Replies]

To: fso301
Some of the reasoning behind the 5.56 is that only shots to a few places in the human body by either a 5.56 or .30 caliber will instantly drop an adversary dead or paralyzed. Hits to many other parts of the body by either round will be fatal but not immediately.

Another argument early in the introduction of the 5.56mm was the twist of the bullet. It originally was barely stable in flight. As soon as it hit the target, it tumbled. Then they noticed in cold weather, it became unstable right after it left the barrel. So they tightened the twist. Then the steel cored Nato SS109 bullet made that a problem, so they tightened the twist even more. That eliminated a lot of the original lethality of this round.

Check this web site for a more in-depth history of the deveolment in the 5.56mm Nato cartridge:

http://www.thegunzone.com/556dw-1.html

91 posted on 06/07/2006 6:57:53 PM PDT by Antoninus II
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 68 | View Replies]

To: calex59

I was very lucky to buy a Springfield Armory M1A .308 semi auto (civilian version of the M14) several years ago, it also came with a rare Choate folding stock and with a Leupold tactical scope.
sweet!

sweet!

sweet!

As far as stopping power with crazed fanatics its either a lot of really small supervelocity rounds or flechettes or a single high mass round.
Recently there has been lots of news of the MetalStorm system, perhaps 25-50 round bursts would be better from a multi barreled rifle? or better yet develope a battle rifle using railgun technology firing hyperspeed rounds, similar to the ones in the Swarzennegger movie, they do exist though probably still not too portable.
Either that or use caseless ammo with exploding heads.

For my bear hunting ammo in Alaska I prefer the Barnes X bullets that spread out like a high speed propeller and leaves a huge hole for maximum blood loss.But thats the .338 and .375 rounds.


92 posted on 06/07/2006 6:58:34 PM PDT by Eye of Unk
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 65 | View Replies]

To: demlosers

All you have to do is shave the point a little. This will cause the bullet to deflect at an angle upon impact. So, rather than a thru and thru, the bullet travels a random path through the target.


93 posted on 06/07/2006 6:59:00 PM PDT by Parmy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: Flavius
I have seen that style of round on TV before!

Unfortunately, the US military will never use it. It would possibly violate the Geneva convention.
94 posted on 06/07/2006 6:59:03 PM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: jmc1969
As American troop casualties in Iraq continue to mount, concern is growing they may be outgunned. That includes new questions about the stopping power of the ammunition that is used by the standard-issue M-16 rifle.

CBS needs to watch their own stories. The dreaded and evil "assault rifle" in civilian hands is all powerful, certainly far too powerful for American citizens, but now they tell us it may not be powerful enough.

Don't tell me that CBS lied to me!

95 posted on 06/07/2006 7:00:17 PM PDT by RJL
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: 1rudeboy

[Stoopid gun n00b question: if I wanted to purchase a M-14, what is the closest I can get legally? Make, models, and availability please.]

Check out Springfield Armory's selection, if that's the rifle you want. SA has a new M14 called the SOCOM II that has a bunch of rails for hanging SureFires, vertical grips, and sights. Yes, these are VERY important and, at the very minimum, a light is mandatory on any rifle you'd grab for protection. Price should be $1,500-1,800 for the rifle. Accessories are extra.


96 posted on 06/07/2006 7:01:01 PM PDT by MyDogAllah
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 55 | View Replies]

To: Leisler

Ouch! That had to have hurt!

LLS


97 posted on 06/07/2006 7:01:24 PM PDT by LibLieSlayer (Preserve America... kill terrorists... destroy dims!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 88 | View Replies]

To: Firefigher NC

And soft nosed hollow point.


98 posted on 06/07/2006 7:05:52 PM PDT by F.J. Mitchell (Dear US Senators, Reps. and Mr. President: Why are y'all abetting the destruction of our culture?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: frankiep

The fine print of the CMP is it's for developing marksmanship. In other words, you have to be a competitor in order to buy from the Civilian Marksmanship Program even if it's for a single match. You have a lot of other requirements such as belonging to a approved club or state association. Belonging to the NRA doesn't count.

Don't let any of this discourage you. Half the fun of getting a rifle from the government is getting the govenment to deliver you that rifle to your door. A friend loved the look on his Mailman's face when he told him what was just delived. The Mailman was shocked and told him he couldn't do that. My friend said he didn't. YOU DID. Still funny. Today, it's handled by one of the civilian shipping companies like FedEx.


99 posted on 06/07/2006 7:07:41 PM PDT by Shooter 2.5 (Vote a Straight Republican Ballot. Rid the country of dems. NRA)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 76 | View Replies]

To: KoRn
Bullet to bullet that is true, but you go heavier, and you'll start getting reports of guys running out of rounds.Suppression fire in support of movement over open terrine is vital. That requires lots of rounds. Weight. Real world is compromises.

The Army has been scientifically doing studies, taking reports and digging bullets out of bodies for 60 years now. What troops have is based on science, physics, logistics, experience over a wide range of real worlds shooting environments. The 5.56 is it.

If the Marines didn't think so, they'd tell the Army to f off.
100 posted on 06/07/2006 7:08:48 PM PDT by Leisler (Not all Muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are Muslim.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 89 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-5051-100101-150151 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson