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The United States Conference of Catholic Bishops policy paper on its support of illegal immigration
U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops ^ | Walter Ewing

Posted on 06/14/2006 4:52:10 PM PDT by garbageseeker

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To: Torie

Why should that be embarassing?


151 posted on 06/14/2006 10:05:37 PM PDT by Proud2BAmerican
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To: Torie

No."Liberation Theology"(religious Marxism) is the theology the Church uses to defend illegal immigration


152 posted on 06/14/2006 10:05:38 PM PDT by garbageseeker
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To: Proud2BAmerican

Bump


153 posted on 06/14/2006 10:06:33 PM PDT by garbageseeker
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To: AzaleaCity5691
"especially considering the church can prove that it's authority eminates from Jesus Christ himself."

The current organization known as the "Catholic Church" can prove no such thing.
154 posted on 06/14/2006 10:08:48 PM PDT by WFBFan
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To: catholicfreeper
But don't you think that what Sinkspur is trying to say is what the Church and the Pope said during the Father Feeny Controversy in the 30 and the 40's.

No.

155 posted on 06/14/2006 10:09:27 PM PDT by reductio
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To: sinkspur

The USCCB has sunk to blatant advocacy of terrible public policy. Very disappointing.

Here is a refutation of the USCCB misuse of scripture to justify their wrong-headed stance:

http://rightreason.ektopos.com/archives/2006/05/illegal_immigra.html


156 posted on 06/14/2006 10:11:26 PM PDT by WOSG (Do your duty, be a patriot, support our Troops - VOTE!)
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To: garbageseeker

That strikes me as ludicrous. Marxism is an economic doctrine. Immigration is about just how free markets should be when it comes to the movement of labor inputs. I frankly find no nexus whatsoever. It is an attempt to truncate debate by slapping a noisome term as an overlay. It is quite annoying to this poster, because it does nothing to enhance the debate about a very important issue.


157 posted on 06/14/2006 10:11:39 PM PDT by Torie
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To: WFBFan

So, a succession of popes beginning with Peter and continuting down the line to Benedict XVI is not proof.


158 posted on 06/14/2006 10:15:14 PM PDT by AzaleaCity5691 (6-6-06 A victory for reason)
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To: sinkspur
No. You are wrong.

No. You are wrong.

What is the source of your quote?"

Pope Eugene IV, Cantate Domino, 1441, and infallible declaration of the supreme magisterium of the Catholic Church.

It does not state that one must formally be a member of the Church.

Not my problem.

This quote is particularly false:

"and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church."

So you just up and figure the Pope, while speaking ex cathedra, spoke falsely?

159 posted on 06/14/2006 10:15:44 PM PDT by reductio
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To: Torie
Marxism is the philosophy, social theory and political practice based on the works of Karl Marx, a 19th century German socialist philosopher.
160 posted on 06/14/2006 10:16:01 PM PDT by garbageseeker
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To: WOSG

Bump


161 posted on 06/14/2006 10:16:44 PM PDT by garbageseeker
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To: garbageseeker
Splendid, and what does that have to do with how free labor inputs should be? In fact come to think of it, to the extent Marxist are into economic autarky, they would tend to be Buchananites when it comes to the free transfer of labor inputs, since that would undermine the autarky. The whole thing is totally ridiculous, and a red herring, and a distraction.
162 posted on 06/14/2006 10:19:39 PM PDT by Torie
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To: catholicfreeper

"If people want to get rid of birthright citizenship for future children that is fine. That could be a possible solution."

It would be. The USCCB would oppose it.

The USCCB says they are not for 'open borders'. yet they opposed the HR4437 bill for including provisions for expedited removal, for holding border crossers (instead of catch-and-release, which undermines the whole enforcement effort). etc.


"I would have to think a guestworker program"
Okay as long as you dont make it a backdoor amnesty ... " some pathway to citizenship " ... amnesty is not okay, it will only make the problem worse.

"Deportation of the criminals that are here and those that commit serious crimes in the future, real border security, and real employee sanctions is the other side of the coin."

that above is all you need, and it is provided in HR4437.


163 posted on 06/14/2006 10:19:42 PM PDT by WOSG (Do your duty, be a patriot, support our Troops - VOTE!)
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To: catholicfreeper
Say it long enough people would start to believe you.

Liberation Theology(religious Marxism) is being used to justify illegal immigration.
164 posted on 06/14/2006 10:21:12 PM PDT by garbageseeker
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To: Torie

Read the Liberation Theology. I have it posted. Maybe it holds the answers to some of your questions.


165 posted on 06/14/2006 10:23:03 PM PDT by garbageseeker
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To: garbageseeker; Torie

This a statement from current Pope when the he just a Cardinal heading up the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith under JOhn Paul II

INSTRUCTION ON CERTAIN ASPECTS OF THE
"THEOLOGY OF LIBERATION"
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19840806_theology-liberation_en.html


There are many other documents from the former Popehimself. The above and this debate has nothing to do with Marxism or liberation theolgy. If it did, I find it strange that the current POPE who wrote this statement in 84 has not even uttered a peep of concern.


166 posted on 06/14/2006 10:23:18 PM PDT by catholicfreeper (I am Blogging for the GOP and Victory O6 at www.theponderingamerican.blogspot.com)
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To: reductio
You don't even know what "in the Church" means. If you deny that non-Catholics, Jews, and members of other religions cannot be saved because they are not formal members of the Church, you are wrong.

Father Feeney was condemned by Pius XII, in 1946, for just such a position. I will post the letter from the Holy Office tomorrow.

167 posted on 06/14/2006 10:25:19 PM PDT by sinkspur (Today, we settled all family business.)
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To: garbageseeker

What? John Paul II was a great foe of LIberation Theolgy. In fact he was the expert on it. HE condemmed it. This has nothing to do with Liberation Theolgy. Just because there is poor folks involved in some cases doesnt mean that every thing is liberation Theology


168 posted on 06/14/2006 10:25:43 PM PDT by catholicfreeper (I am Blogging for the GOP and Victory O6 at www.theponderingamerican.blogspot.com)
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To: sinkspur

And you're wasting bandwidth bringing up a personal side issue. Let it rest.


169 posted on 06/14/2006 10:26:01 PM PDT by WOSG (Do your duty, be a patriot, support our Troops - VOTE!)
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To: catholicfreeper
If an theology is banned does not necessarily mean that its still being followed or the ban is being enforced.

Cardinal Roger Mahoney and the USCCB and their stance in on illegal immigration. It looks to me that they are still believe in it.
170 posted on 06/14/2006 10:26:46 PM PDT by garbageseeker
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To: catholicfreeper

Maybe someone should post the bullet points of the "theology of liberation."


171 posted on 06/14/2006 10:27:01 PM PDT by Torie
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To: sinkspur

You just called an infallible statement a falsity. Hey, that ain't my problem.


172 posted on 06/14/2006 10:27:13 PM PDT by reductio
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To: WOSG; garbageseeker
A Catholic belonging to the Masons is not a "side" issue. Catholics are forbidden from joining Lodges.

For garbageseeker to come on here, ranting at the bishops when he himself is in violation of Church law, is the height of hypocrisy.

173 posted on 06/14/2006 10:28:58 PM PDT by sinkspur (Today, we settled all family business.)
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To: sinkspur
The letter you are talking about was 1949, not 1946. If you need any further help, let me know.

This is a little off the subject, but can you show me some secret handshakes?

174 posted on 06/14/2006 10:29:09 PM PDT by reductio
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To: AzaleaCity5691
"So, a succession of popes beginning with Peter and continuting down the line to Benedict XVI is not proof."

The only evidence that Peter was the first Pope is Catholic tradition, not history or scripture. When did Peter himself claim he was a "pope"? He claimed no primacy for himself. In fact, at the Jerusalem conference in Acts 15, it was not Peter who led the meeting (although he was there).

What's more, the "Church" referred to in the New Testament did not refer to a specific hierarchy, but the the entire body of believers. What matters is our relationship with Christ and our belief in him. There is no temporal intercessor required.
175 posted on 06/14/2006 10:29:51 PM PDT by WFBFan
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To: reductio
Eugene was wrong about shedding blood for Christ. It is formally defined as "baptism of Blood," and is the method by which the Holy Innocents, who were not baptised, were saved.

You really do need to learn some basic ecclesiology. And you need to learn what "in the Church" means so that you will understand Eugene's statement.

176 posted on 06/14/2006 10:30:48 PM PDT by sinkspur (Today, we settled all family business.)
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To: Torie

"Maybe someone should post the bullet points of the "theology of liberation.""

This book touches on it:

http://www.cmpage.org/betrayal/index.html

See:
http://www.cmpage.org/betrayal/chapt6.html


177 posted on 06/14/2006 10:31:02 PM PDT by WOSG (Do your duty, be a patriot, support our Troops - VOTE!)
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To: garbageseeker

Put it in your own words. These long cut and pastes are the most annoying of all. There is too much cut and paste around here, and not enough brevity is the soul of wit in parsing matters down to the nub, in a way that communicates something tangible.


178 posted on 06/14/2006 10:31:31 PM PDT by Torie
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To: reductio
Ah, so you know of the letter. Then how can you come on here and make the statements you make?

Let me guess: Pius XII was wrong.

179 posted on 06/14/2006 10:31:44 PM PDT by sinkspur (Today, we settled all family business.)
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To: WOSG

Those are very good links


180 posted on 06/14/2006 10:31:52 PM PDT by garbageseeker
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To: garbageseeker

And I'm sure the church would like to start paying taxes too. I'm sick of people trying to get to Heaven by stepping on me. Let them go south of the border and change laws so these people can stay in their home countries.


181 posted on 06/14/2006 10:33:56 PM PDT by Razz Barry
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To: garbageseeker
Show me any of the Cardinals Statements that deal with this issue that are in a liberation Theology vein. There are none. Talking about the poor and the concerns of the migrant and their familes does not equal a Theological movement that advocated a class struggle and if needed violent Revolutionary change as the Church as its agent
182 posted on 06/14/2006 10:34:26 PM PDT by catholicfreeper (I am Blogging for the GOP and Victory O6 at www.theponderingamerican.blogspot.com)
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To: sinkspur

"A Catholic belonging to the Masons is not a "side" issue. Catholics are forbidden from joining Lodges."

If you're his pastor, then its between you and him, but FR is not the place for declarations on such personal matters, and it's a side issue vis a vis the topic. An atheist could show up here and jon the debate ... actually a few have. you made your point, let it rest.


183 posted on 06/14/2006 10:34:36 PM PDT by WOSG (Do your duty, be a patriot, support our Troops - VOTE!)
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To: WOSG

What do you think it means in your own words, and what does it mean, when it comes to the matter of the free transfer of labor inputs? Those who have really grasped a matter, don't need to do cut and paste, and prefer not to. I least that is my preference. I rarely do cut and paste in the reply mode. I prefer to post my own thoughts, perhaps with a link.


184 posted on 06/14/2006 10:35:34 PM PDT by Torie
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To: sinkspur
[Pope] Eugene was wrong about shedding blood for Christ.

It was an infallible declaration. How could it have been in error? In order to say that, you would have to deny the first Vatican council's declaration concerning infallibility, and deny it point blank. Clearly this door is slammed shut.

It is formally defined as "baptism of Blood," and is the method by which the Holy Innocents, who were not baptised, were saved.

It was never formally defined anywhere at all.

You really do need to learn some basic ecclesiology. And you need to learn what "in the Church" means so that you will understand Eugene's statement.

I know exactly what I'm talking about.

185 posted on 06/14/2006 10:35:39 PM PDT by reductio
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To: Torie

Liberation theology explores the relationship between Christian theology (usually Roman Catholic) and political activism, particularly in areas of social justice, poverty, and human rights. The main methodological innovation of liberation theology is to do theology from the viewpoint of the economically poor and oppressed of the human community.

Sounds like the policy paper of the UCSSB on illegal immigration and the stance Cardinal Roger Mahoney and his position on illegal immigration.(Religious Marxism)


186 posted on 06/14/2006 10:35:51 PM PDT by garbageseeker
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To: WOSG

Bump


187 posted on 06/14/2006 10:37:07 PM PDT by garbageseeker
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To: sinkspur
Let me guess: Pius XII was wrong.

Allow me to put you in a corner. Guess further... wrong about exactly what?

188 posted on 06/14/2006 10:37:39 PM PDT by reductio
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To: reductio
I get it. You're one of those trads who insists that any one is not formally a Catholic is going to hell.

A Feeneyite.

Persist in your error. You are contradicting the Church.

189 posted on 06/14/2006 10:37:43 PM PDT by sinkspur (Today, we settled all family business.)
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To: catholicfreeper

Your fighting a losing battle.


190 posted on 06/14/2006 10:37:47 PM PDT by garbageseeker
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To: garbageseeker

I don't quite follow how concern for the poor translates into immigration policy myself. Concern for the poor raises a host of complex issues when it comes to public policy, and at some point, such complexity goes way beyond theology as to ways and means. It requires other expertise that most theologians don't possess.


191 posted on 06/14/2006 10:39:18 PM PDT by Torie
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To: sinkspur

And what is a Catholic who denies papal infallibility as you have above, and who believes in salvation outside the Church against the clear position of the Catholic Church, as you have?


192 posted on 06/14/2006 10:41:09 PM PDT by reductio
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To: garbageseeker

LOL, no am I am not. This has nothing to do with Marxism. Its quite clear looking at the numerous documents from the Vatican that Marxism is not a issue here.


193 posted on 06/14/2006 10:41:44 PM PDT by catholicfreeper (I am Blogging for the GOP and Victory O6 at www.theponderingamerican.blogspot.com)
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To: sinkspur

I don't mind being consigned to hell, Sink, if there is a hell. If that is my fate, something is wrong with the cosmos, and it really isn't my fault, that the cosmos is a faulty tower.


194 posted on 06/14/2006 10:42:01 PM PDT by Torie
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To: Torie
It does if you read the tenants of Liberation Theology and the roots of Liberation Theology. It is belief started primarily from Latin America among the Left wing of the Church. Many of those leaders are now leaders of the church here in America(especially in places where are high concetrations of Latins).
195 posted on 06/14/2006 10:42:56 PM PDT by garbageseeker
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To: catholicfreeper

Your dying on the vine. The USCCB policy paper on illegal immigration is exposed as part of the Marxist beliefs of "Liberation Theology".


196 posted on 06/14/2006 10:44:32 PM PDT by garbageseeker
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To: reductio

Arguing with a Feeneyite is a waste of time. You are going to be surprised who is in heaven, my friend. Baptism of desire, baptism of blood. Look 'em up.


197 posted on 06/14/2006 10:45:02 PM PDT by sinkspur (Today, we settled all family business.)
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To: garbageseeker
Your fighting a losing battle.

And you, our dear Masonic member, are in material sin.

198 posted on 06/14/2006 10:46:09 PM PDT by sinkspur (Today, we settled all family business.)
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To: sinkspur

A person who has resorted to name calling has lost the battle.

Be gone.


199 posted on 06/14/2006 10:46:44 PM PDT by garbageseeker
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To: garbageseeker

Also nothing here in the immigration debate has seem to advocate a classless society. That was the struggle for many that advocated it.

This debate is about:
The issue of Worldwide migration
The issue of the migrant
The issue of the poor and the abilty to work
The ability of a State to control its borders and regualate its on well being
The issue of the family and human dignity.

I have seen nothing that approaches anything to Marxism in any mainstream at least discussion of this issue.


200 posted on 06/14/2006 10:46:54 PM PDT by catholicfreeper (I am Blogging for the GOP and Victory O6 at www.theponderingamerican.blogspot.com)
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