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Earliest hominid: Not a hominid at all?
University of Michigan News Service ^ | June 19, 2006 | Laura Bailey

Posted on 06/19/2006 7:08:06 PM PDT by Marius3188

ANN ARBOR, Mich.—The earliest known hominid fossil, which dates to about 7 million years ago, is actually some kind of ape, according to an international team of researchers led by the University of Michigan. The finding, they say, suggests scientists should rethink whether we actually descended from apes resembling chimpanzees, which are considered our closest relatives.

U-M anthropologist Milford Wolpoff and colleagues examined images and the original paper published on the discovery of the Toumaï cranium (TM 266) or Sahelanthropus tchadensis, as well as a computer reconstruction of the skull. Two other colleagues were actually able to examine the skull, Wolpoff said, in addition to the images and the computer reconstruction.

The research team concluded that the cranium did not sit atop the spine but in front of it, indicating the creature walked on all fours like an ape. Hominids, he said, are distinguished from all other primates by walking upright. Hominids are everything on the line leading to humans after divergence with chimpanzees. Upright bipedalism is the single best way of identifying which fossils are hominids.

Researchers also examined the canine teeth and found that they were not clearly human or ape-like, but rather like most other canine fossils from the Miocene era.

"Whether or not it's a human ancestor is probably unimportant as far as the skull is concerned," Wolpoff said. "But it's very important in trying to understand where humans come from. It's the first relative we've had of the earliest hominid, or something related to it, but it's not a hominid at all."

Nor does the skull resemble a living chimpanzee—no fossil records of chimpanzees exist so it's impossible to compare to earlier descendents, Wolpff said. Genetic data puts the divergence of chimpanzees and humans at anywhere from 4 to 6 million years ago. Even though it's not a definite date, it makes it difficult to show a 7-million-year-old fossil is a hominid without overwhelming evidence, he said.

"The big message it sends us is our ancestors never looked like a chimpanzee," Wolpoff said. "This thing is clearly saying that chimpanzees are just as different from this ancestor as we are. They are just different in a different way."

Wolpoff said the skull could be a common ancestor of humans and living chimps.

"Now we have insight into what an early ape looked like, but we have no fossils of apes after it, so you can't tell clearly," he said.

Colleagues include John Hawks, Department of Anthropology of the University of Wisconsin, Madison; Brigitte Senut, Department Histoire de la Terre, Museum National d'Histoire Naturelle, Paleontology; Martin Pickford, chair of Paleoanthropologie et de Prehistoire, College de France; and James Ahern, Department of Anthropology, University of Wyoming, Laramie.

"Two people have seen it. We've all have seen pictures and read publications,"Wolpoff said. "It took us a long time to put this together because we wanted to make sure we were absolutely accurate."

Wolpoff expects that the paper, entitled "Ape or the Ape: Is the Toumai Cranium TM 266 a Hominid?" will be controversial. It was published Friday in a new online journal by the Paleoanthropology Society, http://www.paleoanthro.org/journal/contents.htm.

"I think some people are going to like it, and some people are going to hate it, but it will stimulate more discussion, which is important," Wolpoff said.

For information on Wolpoff, visit: http://www-personal.umich.edu/~wolpoff/.

For more on the Department of Anthropology at U-M, visit: http://www.lsa.umich.edu/anthro/.


TOPICS: Miscellaneous; Unclassified
KEYWORDS: 2silly2takeseriously; anothercrevothread; anthropology; crevolist; evolution; fossil; godsgravesglyphs; hominid; monkey; multiregionalism; notagain; origins; pavlovian; played; skull; usualsuspects
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1 posted on 06/19/2006 7:08:08 PM PDT by Marius3188
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To: Marius3188

I think that guy looks like a chimp.


2 posted on 06/19/2006 7:11:32 PM PDT by muawiyah (-)
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Sparring Scientists Placemarker


3 posted on 06/19/2006 7:12:36 PM PDT by ahayes ("If intelligent design evolved from creationism, then why are there still creationists?"--Quark2005)
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To: Marius3188
What kind of monkeyshine are you tryin' to pull?

Ya buncha Evol-Doers.
4 posted on 06/19/2006 7:15:45 PM PDT by keithtoo ("Drilling in ANWaR is OK with us" - Alaskan Caribou Benevolent Association.)
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To: DaveLoneRanger

ping


5 posted on 06/19/2006 7:16:27 PM PDT by Tribune7
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To: Marius3188
Calling Carolina Guitarman and his Jungle band.
6 posted on 06/19/2006 7:17:31 PM PDT by WKB (D.L. Moody "The Bible was not written for your information, but for your transformation")
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To: Coyoteman

This thread will probably end up entirely ruined, but I thought you might be interested in looking up the article referenced later.


7 posted on 06/19/2006 7:19:23 PM PDT by ahayes ("If intelligent design evolved from creationism, then why are there still creationists?"--Quark2005)
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To: WildHorseCrash
Pinging you another "gap". They just keep coming don't they. I suspect that the reason this happens is because "your" scientist lied about it in the first place.
8 posted on 06/19/2006 7:21:56 PM PDT by fish hawk
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To: Marius3188
"The big message it sends us is our ancestors never looked like a chimpanzee," Wolpoff said. "This thing is clearly saying that chimpanzees are just as different from this ancestor as we are. They are just different in a different way."

Wolpoff said the skull could be a common ancestor of humans and living chimps.

This is pretty important. The time period roughly 6-10 million years ago has few fossils because apes and the rest were all living in forests, which are very poor at creating fossils.

The correct placement of this specimen as a common ancestor of humans and living chimps is an important reinterpretation.

Wolpoff is one of the most experienced old fossil guys out there. He's been at this for years, so its good to have somebody with his experience and knowledge taking a close look at this fossil specimen.

9 posted on 06/19/2006 7:26:08 PM PDT by Coyoteman (Stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the sentence is death--Heinlein)
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To: Marius3188
"The research team concluded that the cranium did not sit atop the spine but in front of it, indicating the creature walked on all fours like an ape."

These researchers will be roundly criticized by the practitioners of the religion of Darwinism for daring to speak the truth.

10 posted on 06/19/2006 7:30:46 PM PDT by TheCrusader
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To: Marius3188; gobucks; mikeus_maximus; MeanWestTexan; JudyB1938; isaiah55version11_0; Elsie; ...

Now THIS is interesting!


11 posted on 06/19/2006 7:31:28 PM PDT by DaveLoneRanger (If you're proud to hold the American Flag, then the Flag is proud to be held by you.)
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To: SunkenCiv; blam

Ping


12 posted on 06/19/2006 7:43:01 PM PDT by annie laurie (All that is gold does not glitter, not all those who wander are lost)
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To: DaveLoneRanger
Now THIS is interesting!

Read the original article. It is interesting!

These are some of the best researchers in the business, and this is important research.

If you read it, you won't easily wave it away with some inane quip, as we often see on these threads.

13 posted on 06/19/2006 7:44:17 PM PDT by Coyoteman (Stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the sentence is death--Heinlein)
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To: Coyoteman

Got it in anything other than PDF, mate?


14 posted on 06/19/2006 8:03:43 PM PDT by DaveLoneRanger (If you're proud to hold the American Flag, then the Flag is proud to be held by you.)
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To: DaveLoneRanger
Got it in anything other than PDF, mate?

I didn't write it! I'm not responsible for the format.

Don't you have Adobe Acrobat? You should be able to download a copy of Adobe Acrobat reader from Adobe.com, and then read all of those files.

This is an important paper, very carefully done. It places an old fossil, which for some reason is not very accessible, in a more believable interpretation.

15 posted on 06/19/2006 8:15:39 PM PDT by Coyoteman (Stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the sentence is death--Heinlein)
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To: annie laurie

Thanks Annie.


16 posted on 06/19/2006 8:29:55 PM PDT by blam
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To: gobucks; mikeus_maximus; MeanWestTexan; JudyB1938; isaiah55version11_0; Elsie; LiteKeeper; ...
Sorry to be so brief in the ping, but I was paused in the middle of a movie, and didn't have time for any research. Having finished, I sat down and looked into it on various websites: TalkOrigins, Wikipedia, Answers in Genesis, Creation-Evolution Headlines, google, and major news sources. Always best to educate one's self, yes?

Overview from Wikipedia:
The fossils found indicate a relatively small cranium, five pieces of jaw, and some teeth, making up a head that has a mixture of derived (archaic human) and primitive (Miocene ape-like) features. These were discovered in the desert of Chad by a team of four people. The team, made up of three Chadians, Mahamat Adoum and Ahounta Djimdoumalbaye (who found the skull on July 19, 2001), Fanone Gongdibe, and the French Alain Beauvilain, leader of this team, found all the fossils of Sahelanthropus from July 2001 to March 2002.
The other nickname for Sahelanthropus tchadensis is Toumaë, which means "hope of life" in the local language. Sahelanthropus tchadensis was, as AiG points out,
"labeled in the media as ‘the most significant find in living memory’, being ‘the oldest human ancestor’."
TalkOrigins calls it "a find of major significance."

National Geographic's article on the subject says:
Various aspects of the new fossils could force scientists to rethink some basic theories about human origins, according to several scientists who were not part of the research team.
As usual, they're rethinking their ideas again. Looks like they'll have to rethink their rethinking.

It also quotes anthropology professor Daniel Lieberman of Harvard University as saying Sahelanthropus tchadensis "will have the impact of a small nuclear bomb."

Turns out the old gal has her own website: www.Sahelanthropus.com/. This website claims the specimen:
rocks the foundation of the human family tree as we know it. The fossil skull found, nicknamed Toumai is as old as any hominid fossil found to date, yet its features appear much more human-like than those of other contenders for title of human ancestor.
However, Wikipedia is honest enough to note that the proported age is interesting, since evolutionists believe humans and chimps diverged 1–2 million years after S. tchadensis. The BBC also concurs that Sahelanthropus tchadensis is "an apparently puzzling combination of modern and ancient features."

The BBC article further says Sahelanthropus tchadensis is:
the most important discovery in the search for the origins of humankind since the first Australopithecus "ape-man" remains were found in Africa in the 1920s.
They also note:
The newly discovered skull finally puts to rest any idea that there might be a single "missing link" between humans and chimpanzees, they say.
One wonders if these researchers have brought back to lie any idea that there might be a single "missing link" between humans and chimpanzees?

In summary, this specimen (head, and some jaw parts and some teeth) supposedly rocked the evolutionary world, but it only muddled things further, because it had advanced hominid features and alleged ape features, even though hominids allegedly diverged from chimps one to two million years later. According to Creation-Evolution Headlines, the skull "badly disfigured and needed reconstructive surgery, leading to criticisms that any interpretations were subjective."

Of further note:

AiG's preliminary response from 2002: New 'Ape-Man' Preliminary Response

New Hominid Fossil Shakes the Human Family Tree (Again)

A note on the controversy involved: Toumaï Skull Fires Controversy
17 posted on 06/19/2006 8:35:42 PM PDT by DaveLoneRanger (If you're proud to hold the American Flag, then the Flag is proud to be held by you.)
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To: Coyoteman

I know you're not responsible for the format, but I know you're resourceful, so I wondered if you had it via HTML. It would seem apparent that you do not trust the University's website, or that it was improperly summarized? Or is this a posturing attempt; "read the actual complicated paper, tiny creationist, like I have. Then one day you may be as smart as me."

I have Adobe Acrobat, but my computer freezes up sometimes when trying to open PDFs. I think it's succumbing to entropy. *Wink*


18 posted on 06/19/2006 8:41:42 PM PDT by DaveLoneRanger (If you're proud to hold the American Flag, then the Flag is proud to be held by you.)
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To: Coyoteman

See comment 18 for the inane quips and hand-waving.


19 posted on 06/19/2006 8:43:06 PM PDT by DaveLoneRanger (If you're proud to hold the American Flag, then the Flag is proud to be held by you.)
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To: DaveLoneRanger
I know you're not responsible for the format, but I know you're resourceful, so I wondered if you had it via HTML. It would seem apparent that you do not trust the University's website, or that it was improperly summarized? Or is this a posturing attempt; "read the actual complicated paper, tiny creationist, like I have. Then one day you may be as smart as me."

I have Adobe Acrobat, but my computer freezes up sometimes when trying to open PDFs. I think it's succumbing to entropy. *Wink*

My comments were directed to the thoroughness of this paper and the scientific standing of its primary author. He has taken a fossil that was somewhat ambiguous and figured out where it more likely lies in the scheme of things. That is a valuable thing to do. I was not attempting to demean you at all in this thread, as you have done nothing to deserve it (but the thread's still young!).

My point was that Walpoff seems to have straightened out a very confusing find in a very difficult time period. I find his explanation, and his evidence, credible, and I have some training in the field.

If your system is freezing up, perhaps more memory or some other slight upgrade might help? Perhaps a system upgrade would do it. (I use Macs, so I don't know a thing about most other folks' problems.)

20 posted on 06/19/2006 8:50:38 PM PDT by Coyoteman (Stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the sentence is death--Heinlein)
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To: blam; FairOpinion; annie laurie; Anne of DC
Thanks annie for the ping.

Just taking a bit of risk, adding this topic to the catalog. But I won't ping it. I won't. No. Judging from the keyword vandalism, this will wind up being worse than usual.

To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list. Thanks.
Please FREEPMAIL me if you want on or off the
"Gods, Graves, Glyphs" PING list or GGG weekly digest
-- Archaeology/Anthropology/Ancient Cultures/Artifacts/Antiquities, etc.
Gods, Graves, Glyphs (alpha order)

21 posted on 06/19/2006 8:56:47 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (updated my FR profile on Monday, June 19, 2006.)
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To: Coyoteman
My comments were directed to the thoroughness of this paper and the scientific standing of its primary author. He has taken a fossil that was somewhat ambiguous and figured out where it more likely lies in the scheme of things. That is a valuable thing to do.
It seems rather that the researchers have overturned its usefulness as an evolutionary link. I agree it's a valuable thing to do, though I doubt many frevolutionists do.
I was not attempting to demean you at all in this thread, as you have done nothing to deserve it (but the thread's still young!).
I bear you no personal ill will either; I have respect for you after my misattribution of the insult, when corrected, was quickly let go.
If your system is freezing up, perhaps more memory or some other slight upgrade might help? Perhaps a system upgrade would do it. (I use Macs, so I don't know a thing about most other folks' problems.)
The laptop's a few years old now, and I've recovered it from the brink a time or two already. It probably will have to be a new computer down the road at some point. And yeah, it's a PC. Apox upon thine Macs!
22 posted on 06/19/2006 8:58:42 PM PDT by DaveLoneRanger (If you're proud to hold the American Flag, then the Flag is proud to be held by you.)
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To: TheCrusader

"...the creature walked on all fours like an ape."

So...maybe it was an ape???


23 posted on 06/19/2006 9:00:55 PM PDT by DennisR (Look around - God is giving you countless observable clues of His existence!)
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To: keithtoo

"Say what?!


24 posted on 06/19/2006 9:01:45 PM PDT by Revolting cat! ("In the end, nothing explains anything.")
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To: SunkenCiv
Only bad keyword I see is frivolous: "2SILLY2TAKESERIOUSLY". Unusual, but it doesn't smack of the acerbic content of crevo wars. It's a dismissive wave, disregarding the entire thing. Very far from "worse than usual". I think it would take a lot to get "worse than usual"!

The evos will want to stay away from this thread, I daresay, because it doesn't jibe, so you may be clear to give it a regular ping. Of course, I'll be proven wrong when the frevos show up....

I'm not questioning your judgment, I'm just disagreeing with some particulars of your views on crevo threads, having (I assume) read more of them.
25 posted on 06/19/2006 9:02:45 PM PDT by DaveLoneRanger (If you're proud to hold the American Flag, then the Flag is proud to be held by you.)
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To: muawiyah
"I think that guy looks like a chimp"

Have you ever seen a profile view of Duane Gish?

26 posted on 06/19/2006 9:14:53 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Atheist and Fool are synonyms; Evolution is where fools hide from the sunrise)
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To: TheCrusader
"These researchers will be roundly criticized by the practitioners of the religion of Darwinism for daring to speak the truth."

Yep! violation of the second Dweeper commandment:
Thou shalt not bear faithful witness of any man nor alleged ancestor thereof.

27 posted on 06/19/2006 9:19:17 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Atheist and Fool are synonyms; Evolution is where fools hide from the sunrise)
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To: DaveLoneRanger

Get some key text from the pdf, and do a google search for that text, and after the gopher finds it, it will convert it to html and you can then click on that option ;o)


















28 posted on 06/19/2006 9:23:17 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Atheist and Fool are synonyms; Evolution is where fools hide from the sunrise)
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To: Marius3188; ahayes; fish hawk; Coyoteman; TheCrusader; DaveLoneRanger; blam
no fossil records of chimpanzees exist so it's impossible to compare to earlier descendents, Wolpff said.

That is kinda big gap in the fossil record, with nothing for a "missing link" to link to, isn't it? [snicker]
(Yes, I read the forest excuse. Another confirmation of Genesis if true: Man was kicked out of the garden.)
Or maybe chimpanzees "evolved" from people. [snicker]
The monkey speaks his mind.
29 posted on 06/19/2006 9:26:10 PM PDT by UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide (Give Them Liberty Or Give Them Death! - IT'S ISLAM, STUPID! - Islam Delenda Est! - Rumble thee forth)
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To: Marius3188
"Whether or not it's a human ancestor is probably unimportant as far as the skull is concerned," Wolpoff said. "But it's very important in trying to understand where humans come from. It's the first relative we've had of the earliest hominid, or something related to it, but it's not a hominid at all."

What kind of doublespeak is this? At the end of this quote he says, "but it's not a hominid at all." The first sentence of the article starts out, "The earliest known hominid fossil, Sounds to me like they really don't want to discount evolution of man from apes even though everything points to no connection.

30 posted on 06/19/2006 9:26:35 PM PDT by taxesareforever (Never forget Matt MaupinThe earliest known hominid fossil,)
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To: DaveLoneRanger
"The laptop's a few years old now, and I've recovered it from the brink a time or two already."

Replace the RAM modules. One of them is going out, and acrobat is a heavy user of RAM.

31 posted on 06/19/2006 9:28:46 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Atheist and Fool are synonyms; Evolution is where fools hide from the sunrise)
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To: Junior

Ping for archive.


32 posted on 06/19/2006 9:33:26 PM PDT by DaveLoneRanger (If you're proud to hold the American Flag, then the Flag is proud to be held by you.)
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To: taxesareforever

They assume the connection. The fossil record is so fragmentary and probably will remain so. They have no fossils of early chimps? That I didn't know. If human evolution took place, it might be in a way unimagined so far. IAC, they just don't know.


33 posted on 06/19/2006 9:39:14 PM PDT by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: WKB

CarlinaGuitarman is going to sing us his favorite Kinks' tune "Im an Ape man".

I think I’m sophisticated
’cos I’m living my life like a good homosapien
But all around me everybody’s multiplying
Till they’re walking round like flies man
So I’m no better than the animals sitting in their cages
In the zoo man
’cos compared to the flowers and the birds and the trees
I am an ape man
I think I’m so educated and I’m so civilized
’cos I’m a strict vegetarian
But with the over-population and inflation and starvation
And the crazy politicians
I don’t feel safe in this world no more
I don’t want to die in a nuclear war
I want to sail away to a distant shore and make like an ape man
I’m an ape man, I’m an ape ape man
I’m an ape man I’m a king kong man I’m ape ape man
I’m an ape man


34 posted on 06/19/2006 9:40:37 PM PDT by Boiler Plate (Mom always said why be difficult, when with just a little more effort you can be impossible.)
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To: DaveLoneRanger
My comments were directed to the thoroughness of this paper and the scientific standing of its primary author. He has taken a fossil that was somewhat ambiguous and figured out where it more likely lies in the scheme of things. That is a valuable thing to do.

It seems rather that the researchers have overturned its usefulness as an evolutionary link. I agree it's a valuable thing to do, though I doubt many frevolutionists do.

Data are of no use if they are not accurate. A lot of the efforts of evolutionists, as witnessed by this paper, are directed toward fine-tuning the data. Over time we reach a better understanding of the past this way.

Anything that is incorrect is a problem--Piltdown fooled a few people for a while, but most folks discounted it because it did not fit with the reliable data. It was mostly ignored after the good South African finds of the 1920s.

As for "frevolutionists" being committed to this particular specimen as an evolutionary link, we are willing to take the data as they are. We don't need to fudge or distort the data; we can take it as it is.

35 posted on 06/19/2006 9:45:20 PM PDT by Coyoteman (Stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the sentence is death--Heinlein)
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To: Marius3188
"Researchers also examined the canine teeth and found that they were not clearly human or ape-like, but rather like most other canine fossils from the Miocene era."

Proof Man evolved from dogs



"..."

Just couldn't resist!

Evolution is nothing more than Tabloid Journalism.

I fully expect to see headlines..."Darwin married Lucy in secred wedding in Nambia - children were Erectus".

36 posted on 06/19/2006 10:03:39 PM PDT by DannyTN
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To: DaveLoneRanger
I think it would take a lot to get "worse than usual"!
Heh... that's for sure. At least no one has included "CallingArtBell"... or have they?
37 posted on 06/19/2006 10:10:06 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (updated my FR profile on Monday, June 19, 2006.)
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Race and Human Evolution: A Fatal Attraction Race and Human Evolution:
A Fatal Attraction

by Milford Wolpoff
and Rachel Caspari
hardcover


38 posted on 06/19/2006 10:10:52 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (updated my FR profile on Monday, June 19, 2006.)
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To: DaveLoneRanger

I'm confused. Exactly why would we want to stay away from this article? Staying away from this thread I can understand when I've got nonsense like a post below showing up uninvited on my pings page. *sigh!*


39 posted on 06/20/2006 3:23:27 AM PDT by ahayes ("If intelligent design evolved from creationism, then why are there still creationists?"--Quark2005)
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To: TheCrusader

You guys sure take any excuse to run around screaming, "FIRE!!", don't you?


40 posted on 06/20/2006 3:25:54 AM PDT by ahayes ("If intelligent design evolved from creationism, then why are there still creationists?"--Quark2005)
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To: PatrickHenry; RunningWolf; Junior; metmom; VadeRetro
The earliest known hominid fossil, which dates to about 7 million years ago, is actually some kind of ape, according to an international team of researchers led by the University of Michigan.

HERESAY ALERT!!!!


41 posted on 06/20/2006 5:36:28 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: Coyoteman
The time period roughly 6-10 million years ago has few fossils because apes and the rest were all living in forests, which are very poor at creating fossils.

Boo hoo.....

How does we KNOW where they were ALL living???

42 posted on 06/20/2006 5:38:03 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: Coyoteman
If you read it, you won't easily wave it away with some inane quip, as we often see on these threads.

But... coyote IS a trickster!

43 posted on 06/20/2006 5:39:06 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: Coyoteman
It places an old fossil, which for some reason is not very accessible, in a more believable interpretation.

Says volumes!!!

44 posted on 06/20/2006 5:39:59 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: TheCrusader

Sorry, wrong again. People who believe in Darwinian theory are NOT close minded. And, this does nothing to dispute ANYTHING about evolution. All it does is re-arrange the pieces a TINY bit. In fact, it should show you how evolutionists are willing to change theories and views based upon new evidence. As opposed to creationists - who eschew any and all changes IN SPITE of mounds of evidence.


45 posted on 06/20/2006 5:42:32 AM PDT by KeepUSfree (WOSD = fascism pure and simple.)
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To: DaveLoneRanger
As usual, they're rethinking their ideas again. Looks like they'll have to rethink their rethinking.


I'll be a monkey's uncle!


"I thought about it before I re-thought about it."

46 posted on 06/20/2006 5:44:15 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: Coyoteman
He has taken a fossil that was somewhat ambiguous and figured out where it more likely lies in the scheme of things. That is a valuable thing to do. I was not attempting to demean you at all in this thread, as

Somewhat???


(I use Macs, so I don't know a thing about most other folks' problems.)

There goes the thread!!!!

47 posted on 06/20/2006 5:46:12 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: DaveLoneRanger
And yeah, it's a PC. Apox upon thine Macs!

See!?

I told you!

48 posted on 06/20/2006 5:47:31 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: Elsie
Only a fool WOULDN'T re-think their theories and philosphies when presented with new evidence.

Then, there are creationists and drug warriors....(sigh)

49 posted on 06/20/2006 5:48:07 AM PDT by KeepUSfree (WOSD = fascism pure and simple.)
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To: KeepUSfree
Only a fool WOULDN'T re-think their theories and philosphies when presented with new evidence.

Or OLD evidence....

50 posted on 06/20/2006 5:52:17 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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