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Church mulls 'phrasing' change for Holy Trinity
The Washington Times ^ | June 20, 2006 | Richard Ostling

Posted on 06/20/2006 4:35:44 AM PDT by pageonetoo

BIRMINGHAM, Ala. -- At some Presbyterian churches the Holy Trinity -- "Father, Son and Holy Spirit" -- will be out. "Mother, Child and Womb" is in.

Delegates to the national assembly of the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) voted yesterday to "receive" a policy paper on sex-inclusive language for the Trinity, a step short of approving it. Church officials are enabled to propose "experimental liturgies" with "alternative phrasings" for the Trinity, but congregations won't be required to use them.

Besides "Mother, Child and Womb" and "Rock, Redeemer, Friend," options include:
• "Lover, Beloved, Love"
• "Creator, Savior, Sanctifier"
• "King of Glory, Prince of Peace, Spirit of Love"

"This does not alter the church's theological position, but provides an educational resource to enhance the spiritual life of our membership," legislative committee chairman Nancy Olthoff, an Iowa laywoman, said during yesterday's debate on the changes.

The assembly narrowly defeated a conservative bid to send the paper back for further study, which would have killed it.

A panel that worked on the issue since 2000 said the classical language for the Trinity still should be used, but Presbyterians should seek "fresh ways to speak of the mystery of the triune God" to "expand the church's vocabulary of praise and wonder."..

(Excerpt) Read more at insider.washingtontimes.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; News/Current Events; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: babble; babel; blahblahblah; christian; church; gobbledegook; orwelianlanguage; towerofbabel; trinity
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To: Tenacious 1
In their attempt to emulate our Lord, they are misguided and erode (in my opinion) the true word and teachings of Christ.

More appropriately "emasculate". You are right, Jesus was bold and tough. Not the smarmy stuff coming out of the Episcopal and Presbyterian sects.

51 posted on 06/20/2006 5:47:02 AM PDT by MountainMenace (E Pluribus Unum! An oxymoron for liberals.)
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To: HossB86

PCA here in Memphis are building, building, building. PCUSA is having financial difficulties.


52 posted on 06/20/2006 5:48:44 AM PDT by mel
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To: Tenacious 1

And just think of all the lines in hymns that won't rhyme any more!


53 posted on 06/20/2006 5:51:00 AM PDT by linda_22003
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To: butternut_squash_bisque

Man to fit God into his small image. I think they know better but deny.


54 posted on 06/20/2006 5:51:51 AM PDT by bmwcyle (Only stupid people would vote for McCain, Warner, Hagle, Snowe, Graham, or any RINO)
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To: alicewonders
Satan is laughing right now.

God is in control, not Satan.

Sometimes it's easy to forget that.

55 posted on 06/20/2006 5:52:33 AM PDT by Protagoras ("A real decision is measured by the fact that you have taken a new action"... Tony Robbins)
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To: butternut_squash_bisque
I'm so glad I'm not a Presbyterian any more. PCUSA has more in common with CPUSA that it does with Christianity.
56 posted on 06/20/2006 5:52:49 AM PDT by Little Ray (If you want to be a martyr, we want to martyr you.)
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To: Bryan24
It appears the Presbyterian Church is running off the cliff on the liberal end of the spectrum.

The outcome is thus far undecided, but it may be soon.

57 posted on 06/20/2006 5:56:06 AM PDT by Protagoras ("A real decision is measured by the fact that you have taken a new action"... Tony Robbins)
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To: alicewonders
I think the fact that they are trying to change OUR religious institutions, rather than creating their very own religion - shows that they have evil intent. Their purpose is to DESTROY - not to amend. Satan is laughing right now.

I used to think statements like this bordered on conspiracy theory craziness - BUT, when I hear stories like this, I have to wonder if maybe there IS a satanic force at work behind the scenes. This story is so bizarre - it's almost surrealistic. Do these people know what they are doing? Maybe they do.......

58 posted on 06/20/2006 5:56:24 AM PDT by Tokra (I think I'll retire to Bedlam.)
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To: All

Another denomination that has decided to evolve into becoming "post-Christian."

((sighs))


59 posted on 06/20/2006 5:57:58 AM PDT by markomalley (Vivat Iesus!)
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To: smug
Sounds like something from the barn wall in Animal Farm.

Sounds more like the floor to me!

60 posted on 06/20/2006 5:58:16 AM PDT by pageonetoo (You'll spot their posts soon enough!)
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To: AD from SpringBay
Fits nicely with their women bishops.

Wrong denomination.

61 posted on 06/20/2006 5:59:11 AM PDT by Protagoras ("A real decision is measured by the fact that you have taken a new action"... Tony Robbins)
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To: Protagoras
God is in control, not Satan.

Yes, God is in complete control - Satan is proud & thinks he has the upper hand. God will have the last laugh!

62 posted on 06/20/2006 5:59:28 AM PDT by alicewonders
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To: Tenacious 1
The best explanation I have ever heard about the Trinity is based on the three states of matter. Water is a good example because we are all familiar with water at RT (liquid), ice (solid), and steam (gas). These three states of water look different and have different properties, but they are all forms of water and can be converted from one to the other simply by changing the temperature. In a similar way, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one and the same God, just in different forms. Since I have taught Chemistry for over 20 years, I wish that I could claim credit for thinking of this myself, but I have to give credit to a former Associate Pastor.

BTW, my father was a Presbyterian minister for almost 30 years in NC. He retired in 1975 and died in 1978, but I am sure that he is rolling over in his grave now at what is going on in the PCUSA. The local church member does not always know what is happening in the denomination at large, but I realized that the PCUSA had left me almost 20 years ago when GHW Bush was running against Dukakis. I received a copy of "The Presbyterian Survey" which had both of the platforms of the candidates, as well as the position of the PCUSA on the same issues. The positions of Dukakis and the PCUSA were nearly identical! I decided that, although I had been brought up in that denomination, I could no longer support it. I am now a Methodist, a denomination which receives quite a bit of criticism on this blog, but which is, in the south at least, still pretty conservative. At least, we still have "Onward Christian Soldiers" and "Faith of Our Fathers" in the Methodist hymnal!

63 posted on 06/20/2006 5:59:40 AM PDT by srmorton
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To: VRWCer

Prolly so - I think I was channeling Peace MoonBeam when I wrote that...


64 posted on 06/20/2006 5:59:46 AM PDT by Hegemony Cricket (Rugged individualists of the world, unite!)
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To: Little Ray
I'm so glad I'm not a Presbyterian any more.

Perhaps if you had stayed and fought, and others joined you, the denomination wouldn't be in this mess.

65 posted on 06/20/2006 6:00:52 AM PDT by Protagoras ("A real decision is measured by the fact that you have taken a new action"... Tony Robbins)
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To: butternut_squash_bisque
"Lover, Beloved, Love"

Well I've never read that one in the Bible...Oh that's right...These whacked out religions don't need no stinkin' Bible...They make it us as they go along...

66 posted on 06/20/2006 6:01:04 AM PDT by Iscool (I spent MOST of my MONEY on cold beer and hot women...The REST, I just wasted ...)
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To: Hegemony Cricket

Moe, Larry & Curly?


67 posted on 06/20/2006 6:02:46 AM PDT by SAMS (Nobody loves a soldier until the enemy is at the gate; Army Wife & Marine Mom)
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To: butternut_squash_bisque

PCAUSA members get out of your church, now! This is a result of rationalism and liberalism which has taken over almost all large, mainline churches. You cannot be saved by baptism in the name of the "Mother, Child and Womb." Get out now!


68 posted on 06/20/2006 6:03:23 AM PDT by Lutheran Loft II
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To: Lutheran Loft II

Rationalism and liberalism has taken over most mainline, large churches, my church body included. Mine is usually about 20 years behind the rest.


69 posted on 06/20/2006 6:05:20 AM PDT by Lutheran Loft II
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To: butternut_squash_bisque
It's no surprise that the apostle Paul, inspired by the Holy Spirit, identified ones such as these who would change GOD's Word to fit their own desires.

2Timothy 3:1 -- But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. 2 For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, 4 treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these. 6 For among them are those who enter into households and captivate weak women weighed down with sins, led on by various impulses, 7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these {men} also oppose the truth, men of depraved mind, rejected in regard to the faith. 9 But they will not make further progress; for their folly will be obvious to all, just as Jannes's and Jambres's folly was also.

2Tim 3:13 But evil men and impostors will proceed {from bad} to worse, deceiving and being deceived.

2Tim 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but {wanting} to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, 4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.

70 posted on 06/20/2006 6:13:55 AM PDT by OB1kNOb (This is no time for bleeding hearts, pacifists, and appeasers to prevail in free world opinion.)
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To: Lutheran Loft II
PCAUSA members get out of your church, now!

Some don't cut and run, some stay and fight. When it's time to leave, the faithful will leave. But not on the urging of those outside our denomination.

71 posted on 06/20/2006 6:14:17 AM PDT by Protagoras ("A real decision is measured by the fact that you have taken a new action"... Tony Robbins)
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To: pageonetoo

Good 1


72 posted on 06/20/2006 6:14:22 AM PDT by smug (Tanstaafl)
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To: Lutheran Loft II

Note: PCUSA did not adopt this form. They simply agreed to listen to the idea of allowing the changing of the language. The whole denomination has to vote on changing the language.

Presbyterians are always reluctant to tell their member churches how to behave.


73 posted on 06/20/2006 6:14:34 AM PDT by AppyPappy (If you aren't part of the solution, there is good money to be made prolonging the problem.)
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To: srmorton

[The best explanation I have ever heard about the Trinity is based on the three states of matter. Water is a good example because we are all familiar with water at RT (liquid), ice (solid), and steam (gas).]

I am going to use that. I had never heard it.

I am Catholic and have problems with the leadership in my church as well. Like a good conservative, I remain loyal while actively trying to improve that which I am committed to. The Catholic church, like a tower in Italy began to lean as John Paul aged back in the late 80s.

It is interesting to compare and contrast.

To many/most, Allah has matured/evolved into a fire breathing beast that directs his followers to torture and murder those that do not believe in him while securing power and spewing propoganda. To his followers that murder in his name, hundreds of slutty virgins await their arrival in the afterlife.

Christians now have this fuzzy cumbaya image of Christ. I guess we had our violent historical evolutionary understanding (Crusades).


74 posted on 06/20/2006 6:14:40 AM PDT by Tenacious 1 (Not today.)
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To: butternut_squash_bisque
Church mulls 'phrasing' change...

Ah. Well here's my phrasing change...Until now I referred to them as 'heretics', but I think I'll tweak that just a tad and hereafter call them 'damned heretics'.

75 posted on 06/20/2006 6:16:22 AM PDT by opus86
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To: butternut_squash_bisque
Matthew 12:31-32
Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Mark 3:29
But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.

Luke 12:10
But unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.


It appears the leaders of this "church" a treading on thin ice, and may have even crashed through.
76 posted on 06/20/2006 6:16:59 AM PDT by reegs
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To: Triggerhippie

Don't forget the classic:

Tom, Dick & Harry!

I left the Presbyterian Church when they told me I needed to be a good Christian and turn in all my guns!


77 posted on 06/20/2006 6:17:51 AM PDT by catman67
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To: butternut_squash_bisque

Well don't tell the H.S. about his name change. He could pull down the wrath of you know who.


78 posted on 06/20/2006 6:24:53 AM PDT by x_plus_one (Murder, Suicide, Misogyny, Slavery are the Pillars of islam)
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To: Protagoras
Some don't cut and run, some stay and fight. When it's time to leave, the faithful will leave. But not on the urging of those outside our denomination.

As a Catholic dealing with the sometimes inexplicable reasoning with the current crop of US bishops, I can sympathize with your position on this.

Best of luck with your fight for orthodoxy.

79 posted on 06/20/2006 6:27:17 AM PDT by markomalley (Vivat Iesus!)
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To: MarkL

I personally think that it is Satan working as fast as he can in as many churches that will go along with him. I am grateful that I am in a PCA church


80 posted on 06/20/2006 6:30:25 AM PDT by Bizzy Bugz ("If you cannot get what you like, Why not try to like what you get." ANONYMOUS)
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To: butternut_squash_bisque
"Father, Son and Holy Spirit"

Bah! Holy Ghost was better.

81 posted on 06/20/2006 6:32:15 AM PDT by aculeus
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To: butternut_squash_bisque
Buddabing

Buddabang

Buddaboom

82 posted on 06/20/2006 6:33:00 AM PDT by Remole
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To: Triggerhippie
Tinker, Evers, & Chance?

These are the saddest of possible words:
"Tinker to Evers to Chance."
Trio of bear cubs, and fleeter than birds,
Tinker and Evers and Chance.
Ruthlessly pricking our gonfalon bubble,*
Making a Giant hit into a double--
Words that are heavy with nothing but trouble:
"Tinker to Evers to Chance."

In 1910, New York newspaper columnist Franklin Pierce Adams immortalized the Cubs double play team Joe Tinker (SS), Johnny Evers (2B), and Frank Chance (1B) in verse, cementing their legend and helping them gain election to the Hall of Fame as a trio 36 years later.

* A gonfalon is a flag or pennant.

Garde la Foi, mes amis! Nous nous sommes les sauveurs de la République! Maintenant et Toujours!
(Keep the Faith, my friends! We are the saviors of the Republic! Now and Forever!)

LonePalm, le Républicain du verre cassé (The Broken Glass Republican)

83 posted on 06/20/2006 6:35:03 AM PDT by LonePalm (Commander and Chef)
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To: butternut_squash_bisque

It's paganism.


84 posted on 06/20/2006 6:36:00 AM PDT by dljordan
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To: markomalley
Best of luck with your fight for orthodoxy.

Thanks. But what ever happens, it will be his will.

Yet another split may come, there are other issues to be voted on in the next day that could make this look like a smaller issue.

A proposal to essentially let all congregations go their own way on matters of essential beliefs. If that is adopted, I personally think schism is inevitable, and probably sooner rather than later.

85 posted on 06/20/2006 6:36:41 AM PDT by Protagoras ("A real decision is measured by the fact that you have taken a new action"... Tony Robbins)
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To: Protagoras

The math test for a cult is if they do one of the following:
Add to the Word of God,
Subtract from the diety of Christ,
Multiply the ways to get to heaven, or
Divide the body of Christ.


86 posted on 06/20/2006 6:44:10 AM PDT by resistance ((abandon all hope, become a democrat))
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To: american colleen; Lady In Blue; Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; ...
The delegates sang a revised version of the familiar Doxology, "Praise God from whom all blessings flow" that avoids male nouns and pronouns for God.

Youth delegate Dorothy Hill, a student at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary in Massachusetts, protested that the paper proposing changing the language of the Trinity "suggests viewpoints that seem to be in tension with what our church has always held to be true about our Trinitarian God."

Miss Hill reminded delegates that the Ten Commandments say "the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses His name."

And a child shall lead them .... but only if they will listen.

Catholic Ping - Please freepmail me if you want on/off this list


87 posted on 06/20/2006 6:44:46 AM PDT by NYer (Discover the beauty of the Eastern Catholic Churches - freepmail me for more information.)
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To: corkoman

How's about: Parental Unit, Offspring and the Religiously Significant Non-Corporeal Being?


88 posted on 06/20/2006 6:47:27 AM PDT by Reaganesque
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To: resistance

Thanks


89 posted on 06/20/2006 6:49:26 AM PDT by Protagoras ("A real decision is measured by the fact that you have taken a new action"... Tony Robbins)
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To: NYer

Where are we going and why are we in this hand cart?


90 posted on 06/20/2006 6:52:13 AM PDT by Hydroshock ( (Proverbs 22:7). The rich ruleth over the poor, and the borrower is servant to the lender.)
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To: pageonetoo
Wow, I see some unintended consequences on the horizon here (in addition to the obvious ones.)

Most orthodox denominations will not accept a baptism as valid unless it is performed in the name of the Trinity.

I recently saw something from Rome declaring invalid baptisms in the name of "Creator, Redeemer, Sustainer," (the one you hear most often in ECUSA when they go to a nutty formula).

Now here's the problem (which was noted in this communique or whatever it was I read): when you get baptised in a lot of denominations, you're an infant, and you have NO IDEA what the minister said. Or you're baptized as an older child, but you just don't remember the formula. Once the CPUSA [sic!] approves this, even as an option, all their baptisms will become invalid because you can't be certain that the goofy non-Trinitarian language wasn't used.

Some folks are going to get cranky at having to be re-baptized. Conditional baptisms may become popular . . . "Si non es baptizatus/a, ego te baptizo in nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti."

91 posted on 06/20/2006 6:52:53 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: NYer

Modern Episcopalianism: the inevitable eventual result of breaking from Rome.

When authority and doctrine are based on popularity of persons and theology, the hard doctrines evaporate and those who advance easy doctrines become the leaders.


92 posted on 06/20/2006 6:53:19 AM PDT by Notwithstanding (I love my German shepherd - Benedict XVI reigns!)
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To: butternut_squash_bisque
"Rock, Redeemer, Friend,"

Why not "Rock, Paper, Sissors"? Makes as much sense.

93 posted on 06/20/2006 6:55:04 AM PDT by Martin Tell
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To: butternut_squash_bisque

this kind of crap is why I avoid church, it has come to mean nothing when you can't even stick to your guiding document, The Bible


94 posted on 06/20/2006 6:55:43 AM PDT by StoneColdTaxHater
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To: butternut_squash_bisque

I'm surprised that one of these nitwits didn't suggest Moe, Larry and Curly. I guess the Shemp faction blocked it.


95 posted on 06/20/2006 6:56:16 AM PDT by Inwoodian
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To: Hegemony Cricket
You forgot the greatest of them all:

Moe, Larry, and Curly

96 posted on 06/20/2006 6:56:18 AM PDT by Wonder Warthog (The Hog of Steel-NRA)
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To: Protagoras

Protagoras, but it is a huge issue. For leaders to even bring this to the table is very wrong.

Anyway, as others have posted, I too see evil set to turbo lately in every religious and social issue lately.

Although I fear our Country is on the decline and may never recover, I am optimistic. Jesus wants everyone to know him and from what I have read, many in China and Africa are starting to open to Christ. Hungry souls.

Our Country may be close to being lost unless Men get strong, but I think we are a long way from the end times. Too many souls who may be eager to hear the Word.


97 posted on 06/20/2006 6:56:48 AM PDT by roofgoat
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To: Hydroshock
why are we in this hand cart?

We've always had an argument with the Calvinists, true. But such a change, if it ever becomes effective, transforms the PC-USA from being a schismatic group into an apostate group that is no longer Christian in any form.

98 posted on 06/20/2006 6:56:56 AM PDT by markomalley (Vivat Iesus!)
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To: Protagoras
Joseph Stalin is quoted as having said that those who vote do not decide elections, but rather those who count the votes. The seeds of the apostasy in the Presbyterian Church, USA (PCUSA), were sown in the years following the Civil War when theological liberals, influenced by German "higher criticism" that denied the authenticity and accuracy of the Bible, took over many of the seminaries of the old Northern Presbyterian Church. These liberals practiced Gramscian tactics of infiltration and control when the Italian Communist leader was in diapers. Their students became pastors and in due course came to dominate the presbyteries, especially in places like New York, where there were strong liberal influences among wealthy businessmen.

The techniques the liberals used are outlined in the books Crossed Fingers by Gary North, who is a better historian than he is a futurist. The liberals first aligned with conservatives in the Presbyterian Church who opposed strict subscription to the Westminster Standards. (Remember that Billy Sunday and William Jennings Bryan, who were essentially revivalists and "free will" salvation advocates, were Presbyterians.) In the early 1900s, there were two strains of conservatism in the Northern Presbyterian Church: traditional five point covenental theology Calvinists and what could be called proto-dispensationalists. (Many of the founders of Dallas Theological Seminary and Philadelphia College of the Bible, the first dispensational seminaries, were Presbyterians.) The Northern Presbyterian Church merged with the less Calvinistic Cumberland Presbyterian Church and other small groups, further diluting the power of the strict subscriptionists.

By dividing the conservative forces into two camps, the liberals slowly gained ascendancy. Church discipline in matters of heresy had become a dead letter by the 1920s, as over a thousand Presbyterian ministers signed the apostate Auburn Affirmation evidenced. The final assault on conservatism, either strict subscriptionist or proto-dispensationalist, occurred in the 1930s, when liberals took over Princeton Theological Seminary, which had been the center of conservative Reformed theology for a century, and the General Assembly defrocked J. Gresham Machen and his supporters, the remaining stalwarts of conservative theology.

After the liberal coup, which was completed in 1936 after over a half century of subversion, the remaining conservatives either left the denomination or (in most cases) kept their mouths shut so they could get their pensions in due course. As for the Southern Presbyterian Church, the liberal subversion took longer and was less complete when that denomination merged with the Northern church in 1982. However, many Southern Presbyterians left well before the 1982 merger to form the Presbyterian Church in America (PCA), the second largest denomination named Presbyterian in the United States.

Humanly speaking, the mainstream Presbyterian church is a lost cause and has been so for nearly a century. Granted that today's left wing in the PCUSA is far more culturally radical than their predecessors, they nonetheless remain the heirs of 19th Century theological liberalism which has had the seminaries and most of the presbyteries in its death grip for longer than most of us have been alive. "Mother, child, and womb" or whatever stupid formula is used for the Trinity has its roots in the skepticism and anti-Biblicism of German academia of 150 years ago.

Frankly, I am more worried about preserving the Reformed and Calvinistic witness of the PCA and the conservative Reformed mini-denominations from heresies like those promulgated by Norman Shepherd and Steve Wilkins, who advocate doctrines like baptismal regeneration and works related salvation. I am also worried about evangelicalism in general from the threats of "seeker sensitive" theology that de-emphasizes the evils of sin and the need for repentance and anti-intellectualism in general, where feelings become more important than facts. We have enough to do to fight the subversion of the evangelical church before worrying about long lost causes such as the mainline denominations. We are fighting in Fallujah today, not in Flanders or the Shenandoah Valley.

99 posted on 06/20/2006 7:01:28 AM PDT by Wallace T.
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To: NYer

1533: accommodate the king's sinful marriage
2006: accommodate the queens' sinful marriage


100 posted on 06/20/2006 7:02:45 AM PDT by Notwithstanding (I love my German shepherd - Benedict XVI reigns!)
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