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A Penniless America - Common Cents?
WFRV.COM ^ | 02 JULY 2006 | AP

Posted on 07/02/2006 9:52:07 AM PDT by Extremely Extreme Extremist

(AP) PLYMOUTH, Mass. -- In this village settled by thrifty Pilgrims, you can still buy penny candy for a penny, but tourist Alan Ferguson doubts he'll be able to dig any 1-cent pieces out of his pockets.

He rarely carries pennies because "they take up a lot of room for how much value they have." Instead, like so many other Americans, he dumps his pennies into a bucket back home in Sarasota, Fla.

Pity the poor penny!

It packs so little value that merry kids chuck pennies into the fountain near the candy store, just to watch them splash and sink. Stray pennies turn up everywhere: in streets, cars, sofas, beaches, even landfills with the rest of the garbage.

A penny bought a loaf of bread in early America, but it's a loafer of a coin in an age of inflation and affluence, slowly sliding into monetary obsolescence.

For the first time, the U.S. Mint has said pennies are costing more than 1 cent to make this year, thanks to higher metal prices. "The penny is going to disappear soon unless something changes in the economics of commodities," says Robert Hoge, an expert on North American coins at The American Numismatic Society.

That very idea of spending 1.2 cents to put 1 cent into play strikes many people as "faintly ridiculous," says Jeff Gore, of Elkton, Md., founder of a little group called Citizens for Retiring the Penny.

And yet, while its profile of Abe Lincoln marks time in the bottom of drawers and ashtrays, the penny somehow carries a reassuring symbolism that Americans hesitate to forsake.

"It's part of their past, so they want to keep it in their future," says Dave Harper, editor of Numismatic News.

Gallup polling has shown that two-thirds of Americans want to keep the penny coin. There's even a pro-penny lobby called Americans for Common Cents.

The Mint's announcement is a milestone, though, because coins have historically cost less to produce than the face value paid by receiving banks. They are moneymakers for the government.

U.S. Rep. Jim Kolbe, of Arizona, wants to keep it that way. But when he asked Congress to phase out the penny five years ago he failed; he intends to try again this year. If he fails again, he joked recently, he may open a business melting down pennies to resell the metal.

The idea of a penniless society began to gain currency in 1989 with a bill in Congress to round off purchases to the nearest nickel. It was dropped, but the General Accounting Office in a 1996 report unceremoniously acknowledged that some people consider the penny a "nuisance coin."

In 2002, Gallup polling found that 58 percent of Americans stash pennies in piggy banks, jars, drawers and the like, instead of spending them like other coins. Some people eventually redeem them at banks or coin-counting machines, but 2 percent admit to just plain throwing pennies out!

"Today it's a joke. It's outlived its usefulness," says Tony Terranova, a New York City coin dealer who paid $437,000 for a 1792 penny prototype in what is believed to be the denomination's highest auction price.

"Most people find them annoying when they get them in change," he adds. "I've seen people get pennies in change and actually throw them on the floor."

Not Edmond Knowles, of Flomaton, Ala.

No, he hoarded pennies for nearly four decades as a hobby. He ended up with more than 1.3 million of them -- 4.5 tons -- in several drums in his garage. His bank refused to take them all at once, but he finally found a coin-counting company, Coinstar, that wanted the publicity.

In the biggest known penny cash-in ever, they sent an armored truck last year, loaded his pennies, and then watched helplessly as it sank into the mud in his yard. They needed a tow truck to redeem it. "I still got a few ruts in the yard," says Knowles.

His years of collecting brought him about $1 a day -- $13,084.59 in all.

A penny saved was a penny earned for Knowles, but he took another lesson from the experience, too: "I don't save pennies anymore. It's too big a problem getting rid of them."

Another problem: deciding what to make the penny from. Copper, bronze and zinc have been used, even steel in 1943 when copper was desperately needed for the World War II effort. In 1982, zinc replaced most of the penny's copper to save money, but rising zinc prices are now bedeviling the penny again.

"I'm very surprised they haven't gone to plastic," muses Bill Johnson, a wheat-penny collector who owns the Plimoth Candy Co. (It uses an old spelling of Plymouth.)

Even in his shop where a penny still buys a Tootsie Roll, he leaves a few pennies scattered on top of the cash register for customers like Lindsay Taylor, of Westwood, who is buying $1.78 worth of candy.

She is carrying no pennies because her sons have taken them for their old-fashioned piggy banks, which automatically flip coins inside. Her 2-year-old, she says, "just loves pushing the button."

Others have their own reasons for valuing the humble coin, which borrowed its colloquial name from British currency. The "cent" -- meaning 1 percent of a dollar -- has been struck every year except 1815, when the United States ran out of British-made penny blanks in the wake of the War of 1812.

"It's part of the fabric of American culture," says David Early, a spokesman for the government's Lincoln Bicentennial Commission.

The penny took on the profile of President Lincoln, beloved as the Union's savior during the Civil War, on the centennial of his birth in 1909. The first ones carried ears of wheat on the tails side, but the Lincoln memorial has replaced those. Four new tails designs with themes from Lincoln's life are planned for 2009, with a fifth permanent one afterward to summarize his legacy.

This redesign, the first major one since 1959, has heartened penny lovers.

Those who want to keep the penny coin include small merchants who prefer cash transactions, contractors who help supply pennies, and consumer advocates who fear rounding up of purchases.

"We think the penny is important as a hedge to inflation," says director Mark Weller of Americans for Common Cents. "Any time you have more accurate pricing, consumers benefit."

Joining with the lobby, the wireless network Virgin Mobile USA recently launched a save-the-penny campaign. Its penny truck will travel cross-country to gather pennies for charity.

Scores of charities esteem the penny, which many Americans donate without a second thought. Like shouts in a playground, pennies can multiply quickly.

"People don't like carrying them around, so we dump them into the nearest bowl," says Teddy Gross, who founded the Penny Harvest charity drive in New York City schools. "By the end of any given year, most Americans have got a stash of capital which is practically useless, but it's within easy reach of a young person."

Last year, his children raked in 55 million pennies, which had to be redeemed with help from the Brink's security company. They also bagged about 200,000 spare nickels.

By the way, the Mint says nickels are also costing more to produce than they're worth. Pity the poor nickel?


TOPICS: Business/Economy
KEYWORDS: 70sfans; backinmyday; cathoarding; collapse; curmudgeons; currency; darkclouds; depression; downfall; economy; endoftheroad; endtimes; inflation; itssad; lincoln; money; nancyposters; pennies; penny; theend
But...but...prices will rise to the nearest nickel and it'll hurt the poor the most! < /Luddites >
1 posted on 07/02/2006 9:52:11 AM PDT by Extremely Extreme Extremist
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To: Extremely Extreme Extremist
>>
Pity the poor penny!
<<

No, pity the poor citizen who was convinced by his government schooling and his banker that "wealth" and Federal Reserve fiat money are the same thing. Pity the poor person who works and saves only to have the dollar of his youth decline in purchasing power so it is now only only worth a nickel. Worse, pity the retired person who lends his hard-earned life's savings out so that he can have some income only to see the value of the money he is repaid in worth less and less each month.

Mourn the demise of the penny? No, far better to lament having a fiat money system that has a deliberate policy of a "targeted inflation rate" of 2%, which at times past has exceeded 20% of deliberate annual destruction of value.

Why do we put up with this system, which is owned by a private corporation (Attn Freepers: the US Federal Reserve is a private corporation, not a share of which is owned by the US Government) where a committee of unelected hyper-bureaucrats are given the authority to set the value of the US sovereign currency?

Google "federal reserve private corporation" yields 27 million hits. Read it for yourself.
2 posted on 07/02/2006 10:03:55 AM PDT by theBuckwheat
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To: Extremely Extreme Extremist; sure_fine

I have several of those 2ft tall 'bottle banks', where I've dumped my pocket change over the years.

The Coke bottle holds 8,990 pennies ($89.90 through the bank's coin counter) and the Rolling Rock bottle holds 8,990 dimes ($890.00) through the same counter. I have a Budweiser bottle that's now filling-up with quarters, and it will be interesting to see how many and what value at cash-in time, its contents yield.

Needless to say, it takes years for those things to fill-up. IMO, the penny is sentimental, but a waste of coinage and space.


3 posted on 07/02/2006 10:05:48 AM PDT by butternut_squash_bisque (The recipe's at my FR HomePage. Try it!)
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To: theBuckwheat

Buy Gold?


4 posted on 07/02/2006 10:07:58 AM PDT by dakine
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To: butternut_squash_bisque
" The Coke bottle holds 8,990 pennies ($89.90 through the bank's coin counter) and the Rolling Rock bottle holds 8,990 dimes ($890.00) through the same counter. I have a Budweiser bottle that's now filling-up with quarters, and it will be interesting to see how many and what value at cash-in time, its contents yield."

The late Mr. Redhead and I saved nickels, dimes, and quarters in a 5-pound jar from protein powder. At the same time, we saved the pennies in a large plastic honey jar. When we went to cash them in, they netted us a cool $1,390 and some-odd cents. Hooray for stashers!

5 posted on 07/02/2006 10:22:56 AM PDT by redhead (Alaska: Step out of the bus and into the food chain...)
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To: redhead

"Stasher" make the world go 'round, Mrs Redhead.


6 posted on 07/02/2006 10:32:23 AM PDT by butternut_squash_bisque (The recipe's at my FR HomePage. Try it!)
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To: redhead

All my change goes into a plastic margarine container on top of my dresser each evening. About once a month it is full to the brim with a mix of pennies, nickels, dimes and quarters. I average between $33 and $36 every time I take it to the bank and convert the coins to cash. Over $400 a year for my "Me" fund. Hedonistic toys that I "want", but do not need. My 2005 Christmas present to myself was a set of Grado SR-325i headphones...


7 posted on 07/02/2006 10:38:39 AM PDT by Knute (W- Yep, He's STILL the President!)
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To: Extremely Extreme Extremist
His years of collecting brought him about $1 a day -- $13,084.59 in all.

It could have brought him much more if he had regularly brought in a change jar to his bank, and earned interest on his deposits.

8 posted on 07/02/2006 10:52:01 AM PDT by Vince Ferrer
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To: Extremely Extreme Extremist
The real joke is the US money system.

Pre 1992 pennies contain about 2.2cents worth of valuable copper and other base metals; the successor penny contains over a cent; foreget about the nickle--it is worth over five cents.

How did it get that way? Very simple--the fed debased the US dollar until the metal in the coins had a greater value than their face value as a share of the dollar.

9 posted on 07/02/2006 11:01:05 AM PDT by David (...)
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To: Extremely Extreme Extremist

Time to divide all prices by 100...


10 posted on 07/02/2006 12:14:18 PM PDT by hschliemann
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To: Extremely Extreme Extremist

Do away with the penny and the nickel. Round everything to the dime.

Judging by the price of a gallon of gas, a dime now has less value that a penny did in 1960.


11 posted on 07/02/2006 12:16:04 PM PDT by Lessismore
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To: Knute
"All my change goes into a plastic margarine container on top of my dresser each evening. About once a month it is full to the brim with a mix of pennies, nickels, dimes and quarters."

This is the tried and true method, I believe. He had two containers on his dresser, one for pennies. It didn't get dumped as often as the other coins did, but we always made dumping either one an occasion. "Looks like it's time for a change-dumping ceremony!" Meant we dropped whatever we were doing to go empty the change in the jar. (By the time it was full, it weighed about 40 pounds!)

12 posted on 07/02/2006 12:30:28 PM PDT by redhead (Alaska: Step out of the bus and into the food chain...)
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To: David

Who in the heck would be spending pennies and nickels now? As you mention, the pre-82 pennies have over two cents of copper in them. The post-82 pennies were almost at par with their zinc content a couple months ago. Nickels have more than five cents of metal in them.

And now commodity prices are starting to roll again. When hyper-inflation comes these small coins will retain their intrinsic metal value escalating against the collapsing dollar -- and in a worse case scenario would become "small change" for your Silver Eagles or 90 percent.

The nephew regularly "buys" hundred dollar boxes of nickels and twenty-five dollar boxes of pennies from the bank. His reasoning is that he can never lose money on the deal and in a financial meltdown the coinage will hold value better than paper money.

The government is destroying the middle class with the hidden tax of inflation caused by excessive money supply. For a supposedly conservative forum there is very little discussion of hard money economics here.

When it all comes tumbling down you would much rather hold a hundred pennies or twenty nickels than one paper "dollar" of American debt vouchers. Copper and nickel with a bit more substance than paper.

Oh well, you seen one Great Depression then you've seen them all.

HG


13 posted on 07/02/2006 12:41:51 PM PDT by DebtAndDelusion
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To: Extremely Extreme Extremist

They can probably just hold back printing new pennies every year. There will be plenty in circulation for no more of them are used anymore (given increased numbers of businesses now allowing for credit cards so that change is not used at all) and just print reduced amounts of them when circumstances warrant.


14 posted on 07/02/2006 12:44:59 PM PDT by Republican Wildcat
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To: Extremely Extreme Extremist

Interestingly, in Okinawa, on base, the penny wasn't used. The cost of transporting pennies to Okinawa was/is cost prohibitive, so everything was rounded to the nearest nickel. 9.99 became 10 bucks and 8.72 became 8.70.


15 posted on 07/02/2006 12:51:22 PM PDT by dpa5923 (Small minds talk about people, normal minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas.)
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To: theBuckwheat

Pennies are the only presently circulating "bullion" coin.


16 posted on 07/02/2006 1:24:52 PM PDT by BenLurkin ("The entire remedy is with the people." - W. H. Harrison)
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To: David
Speculation plays a part as well.
17 posted on 07/02/2006 1:29:13 PM PDT by BenLurkin ("The entire remedy is with the people." - W. H. Harrison)
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To: butternut_squash_bisque
As an avid metal detector, I find hundreds on pennies each hunt on a schoolyard. I can go back a year later and find the same amount.

To kids, they're simply worthless. To me, they are a pain and a nuisance but I have to search them to find the old "wheaties" or other jewelry or metals within their specific range.
18 posted on 07/02/2006 1:30:49 PM PDT by DH (The government writes no bill that does not line the pockets of special interests.)
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To: Kenny500c; Always Right; Oatka; Toddsterpatriot; Fierce Allegiance; Tijeras_Slim; CharlesWayneCT; ..

As the post above mentions, it's a no brainer to be hoarding pennies and nickels now. You can't lose the intrinsic metal value of them even as the purchasing power of the "dollar" declines -- and you can always spend them in a pinch. Some will tell you that you lose out on "interest" by holding coinage rather than keeping the paper "money" in the bank but most by now should figure that collecting interest at a rate slower than the metal's appreciation is a sucker's game.

It's been awhile since I've posted due to health problems but the illness hasn't kept me from watching the gold price jump up and down and I can tell you now that gold is getting ready to take off again. It's back over 600 now and the billions of dollars the central bankers have thrown away to knock it down for the last six weeks was just another economic piss in the wind.

I was born shortly after my namesake president Harding was elected. Granny said we were so poor that they only had enough ink to write my initials in the family bible so I have been HG ever since. I saw the Great Depression first hand and now that this quack doctor says I'm going to live it looks like I'm going to see another. Because sure as the sun is coming up tomorrow, we are about to have a crash in this country that's going to make 1929 look like a country picnic like we used to have.

I wrote once before how Father coming back from the Great War with gold coins kept us alive during the Great Depression. Of course if he hadn't been such a damn fool and bought all those stocks on margin we wouldn't have lost the city house and had to move to the country. But those gold coins erased a lot of sins in those days and when everybody was wiped out Father still had his gold coins from France.

We ate while others starved.

That thieving dog Roosevelt tried to take everybody's gold and Father just laughed when the subject came up. The other thing he brought back from the war was a Hun Mauser and he knew how to use it and said that anyone that tried to steal his gold would wind up getting lead instead. He called it "reverse alchemy" when he had been drinking a little.

Right now gold is dirt cheap at 600. For about a quarter of that price you can buy a hundred year old British Sovereign or even a German 20 Mark coin like Father acquired in France. If you have extra money do it soon before the price starts going vertical by the end of this year. Gold is one of only two protections the citizen has against central bankers gone mad. If you've read this far you know the other one.

The middle class in America is being destroyed through inflation and it breaks my heart to see what has happened to this great land of ours. Sometimes when Father had been hitting the bottle hard he would start carrying on about British bankers starting the war and getting all his buddies killed in France. When Roosevelt was elected he said it would be the end of America in my lifetime and if I can hang on a few more years I think he will have been proven right.

Start buying gold and silver -- quietly. Shhhhhh .... as another Roosevelt might be right around the corner. The price is low now because the central bankers will do whatever it takes to keep the price down by creating more money and naked short selling gold on paper. But eventually they print so much money that the paper becomes worthless -- when that happens gold and silver have no theoretical upside in paper dollar terms

If you can't afford silver and gold start hoarding pennies and nickels. You won't lose any money and each one saved ultimately is worth more than its paper equivalent.

During this July 4th holiday take a moment or two to think about these things. You might find you have a lot more in common with the Founding Fathers than you think.

HG


19 posted on 07/02/2006 1:31:37 PM PDT by DebtAndDelusion
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To: DebtAndDelusion
The government is destroying the middle class with the hidden tax of inflation caused by excessive money supply. For a supposedly conservative forum there is very little discussion of hard money economics here.

Oh not really. We just have a band of status quo addicts who instantly jump on anybody who brings that stuff up.

Try posting a thread sometime. Watch what happens.

20 posted on 07/02/2006 1:33:40 PM PDT by ovrtaxt (The face of a child can say it all, especially the mouth part of the face.)
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To: BenLurkin

That's quite a graph. What we pay for copper wire right now is insane. And I just bought about 50' of copper gutter for my house. I got it at a good price, since the guy had it in storage for over 3 years. He ordered too much for a previous project, and he owed a favor.


21 posted on 07/02/2006 1:37:37 PM PDT by ovrtaxt (The face of a child can say it all, especially the mouth part of the face.)
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To: Petronski; martin_fierro

Those Darn ASIANS are buying all the pennies at #19.


22 posted on 07/02/2006 1:39:21 PM PDT by Tijeras_Slim
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To: BenLurkin
Pennies are the only presently circulating "bullion" coin.

Only if you mean copper-plated zinc bullion.

23 posted on 07/02/2006 1:46:06 PM PDT by Petronski (I just love that woman.)
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To: theBuckwheat
Why do we put up with this system, which is owned by a private corporation

So who owns it? Do they make a lot of money off of it? How much?

24 posted on 07/02/2006 1:48:42 PM PDT by Toddsterpatriot (Why are protectionists so bad at math?)
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To: Tijeras_Slim; Petronski
Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting
25 posted on 07/02/2006 1:48:47 PM PDT by martin_fierro (< |:)~)
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To: BenLurkin

"Pennies are the only presently circulating "bullion" coin."

Zinc...

Good market.

Sorry I didn't Rhodium. Talk about a huge price for a little metal.


26 posted on 07/02/2006 2:34:36 PM PDT by OpusatFR ( ALEA IACTA EST. We have just crossed the Rubicon.)
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To: BenLurkin

>>
Pennies are the only presently circulating "bullion" coin.
<<

Now that is a great observation!


27 posted on 07/02/2006 4:24:26 PM PDT by theBuckwheat
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To: Lessismore

Judging by the price of a gallon of gas, a dime now has less value that a penny did in 1960.

According to the website Economic History Resources, a penny in 1960 was worth as much as 7 cents today, I consider that understated. I think the truth is at least a ten to one ratio, in fact I am almost certain it is worse.

I can carry one hundred dollars worth of groceries in to the house in one trip without much trouble and I am not nearly as strong as I used to be. In 1960 you would have needed a pickup truck and probably raised sideplanks on it to haul one hundred dollars worth of groceries.


28 posted on 07/02/2006 5:28:00 PM PDT by RipSawyer (Does anybody still believe this is a free country?)
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To: ovrtaxt

I have some copper tubing that I bought thirty years ago and neve used, I wonder what it is worth now.


29 posted on 07/02/2006 5:36:05 PM PDT by RipSawyer (Does anybody still believe this is a free country?)
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To: Petronski
Huh.

Well I won't make that mistake again.

30 posted on 07/02/2006 6:06:20 PM PDT by BenLurkin ("The entire remedy is with the people." - W. H. Harrison)
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To: Toddsterpatriot
>>
So who owns it? Do they make a lot of money off of it? How much?
<<

The answer to your question can be found in microseconds on Google. Search "private corporation federal reserve" yields 27.5 million hits. Technically, it is a federally charted corporation, and the President appoints the chairman, but the shareholders are all the national banks in proportion to their capital. The US government does not own a single share of stock.

If anyone tries to make you believe the Fed is controlled by the US government, just pay attention to how the Congress and the MSM fawn over the opinion and statements of the Board of Governors or the color of the Chairman's tie, or if he is a "inflation hawk" or whatever. The Boy Scouts are a federally charted corporation and nobody pretends the government controls them! Neither does anyone except the shareholders control the Federal Reserve, and the shareholders are the National Banks.

How much does the Fed earn? Hey! it prints money, legally. So what kind of question is that? The Fed earns as much as it wants to. If it does not earn enough, it can just create money out of thin air until it has enough. When the Fed hikes the "prime rate", it earns interest on the money, which it takes to pay its bills and fly its executives around in their jets. Needless to say, the Fed finds it easy to have needs to spend money on. It proudly states that it returns any excess to the US Treasury.

So, when you hear on the news that the Fed raised interest rates, think of it as another form of taxation.

The curious question natural flows: what if the US Government wanted to buy the Fed back? Say it wanted to force the National Banks to disgorge their shares. Recall that in 1934 Roosevelt ordered all citizens to exchange all their personal gold for federal reserve notes! Many have said this amounted to a bankruptcy liquidation of the US economy to the favor of the shareholders in the corporation that issued those notes. If so, how would you arrive at a fair price? What is the printing press that legally can be used to print an infinite number of dollars worth????

Yet, for any national bank that is listed on a public stock exchange, Sarbanes-Oxley requires them to mark to market any assets they hold. How can the national banks comply with this requirement? They cannot. In truth, there will be endless obstacles and delays placed in the way of any politician who wants the Federal government to acquire full control of the Federal Reserve corporation. It won't happen- we fought a civil war in the 1860s over such matters and the forces who favored being able to freely print money won.
31 posted on 07/02/2006 9:06:10 PM PDT by theBuckwheat
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To: Extremely Extreme Extremist
The Mint's announcement is a milestone, though, because coins have historically cost less to produce than the face value paid by receiving banks. They are moneymakers for the government.

They're only moneymakers for those ignorant of opportunity costs. Even if a penny only costs 0.5 cents to make, and a nickel costs 2 cents, it would still be better to dump the penny and increase nickel production to compensate.

32 posted on 07/02/2006 9:17:43 PM PDT by ThinkDifferent
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To: DH

I can just imagine what you find on the beaches...


33 posted on 07/03/2006 4:59:11 AM PDT by butternut_squash_bisque (The recipe's at my FR HomePage. Try it!)
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To: theBuckwheat
So who owns it?

Neither does anyone except the shareholders control the Federal Reserve, and the shareholders are the National Banks.

Do they make a lot of money off of it?

How much does the Fed earn? Hey! it prints money, legally. So what kind of question is that?

The kind of question that you didn't understand. I don't care how much the Fed makes, I want to know how much the shareholders make.

When the Fed hikes the "prime rate", it earns interest on the money,

I hate to break it to you, but the Fed has nothing to do with the prime rate.

It proudly states that it returns any excess to the US Treasury.

So the shareholders don't get to keep all the money the Fed earns? What kind of secret evil conspiracy returns money to the Treasury?

If so, how would you arrive at a fair price? What is the printing press that legally can be used to print an infinite number of dollars worth????

Wow! I guess each share of the Fed must have an infinite value? Who owns these shares? Their shares must also have an infinite value.

Yet, for any national bank that is listed on a public stock exchange, Sarbanes-Oxley requires them to mark to market any assets they hold. How can the national banks comply with this requirement? They cannot.

Have you ever seen that line item on their balance sheet? If not, how do you know that they haven't marked it to market?

In truth, there will be endless obstacles and delays placed in the way of any politician who wants the Federal government to acquire full control of the Federal Reserve corporation.

Yeah, I'd feel much better if Nancy Pelosi and Cynthia McKinney were in charge of the Federal Reserve. You're funny!

34 posted on 07/03/2006 6:27:28 AM PDT by Toddsterpatriot (Why are protectionists so bad at math?)
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To: Toddsterpatriot
Hmmmm. How to answer....

>>
Wow! I guess each share of the Fed must have an infinite value? Who owns these shares? Their shares must also have an infinite value.
<<

In a way, yes they do. For one thing, there is a big difference between notational value and what the shares would fetch on the open market, say eBay.

What would you be willing to pay for one share of a company that had the license to print fully legal money. There is only one value.

This question is reinforced by the fact that in 1934 Roosevelt forced, upon penalty of a felony, prison and a hefty fine, all citizens to exchange their gold (in any form except jewelry) for fiat Federal Reserve Notes for a rate that forced an instant, overnight, devaluation of the dollar. That seizure could be repeated at any time. Nothing prevents forced liquidation of our assets through the income or death tax system, or worse a new tax such as a wealth tax, where you must pay a percent of your assets each year no matter how much income you had.

And with deliberate inflation, the Fed doesn't have to lift a finger as rising incomes float all taxpayers upwards in the tax brackets forcing them to convert more and more of their assets into payments to the treasury.

With Nixon's closing of the gold window, whereby he cut off the value of the dollar from any legal relationship with gold or silver, there is no longer any legal definition of the value of the US Dollar.

So, nothing stops the Fed from deciding to change the value of the dollar. Indeed, it has a "targeted" or deliberate, rate of inflation of 2%. If it decide that the target should be 15%, which it once was, in the 1970s, there is nothing that the government can do, except to try to pass a law, which might have no effect anyway.

A share in the Federal Reserve is a share in a corporation that is the primary cause of slavery- tax slavery. Why such as harsh conclusion? Slavery is where you cannot escape your master. As a "US Person", you must pay taxes on your income, no matter where you live, no matter where that income was earned, no matter what source it was derived from. If you flee the country, you must get IRS permission to expatriate, and they have entered into tax treaties with many nations to force you to continue to file and pay taxes for 10 years afterwords.

So again, what is the value of one share of a corporation that can enslave a whole nation? And already has?
35 posted on 07/03/2006 7:40:58 PM PDT by theBuckwheat
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To: theBuckwheat
What would you be willing to pay for one share of a company that had the license to print fully legal money. There is only one value.

Having a share in such a company benefits you only if you get some of those ill-gotten earnings. You never did tell me how much the shareholders get. If the Fed "earns" $30 billion, spends $2 billion and returns $28 billion to the treasury, where is the infinite profit that you claim the shareholders are entitled to?

Nothing prevents forced liquidation of our assets through the income or death tax system, or worse a new tax such as a wealth tax, where you must pay a percent of your assets each year no matter how much income you had.

Scary prospects. Totally unrelated to the Fed.

And with deliberate inflation, the Fed doesn't have to lift a finger as rising incomes float all taxpayers upwards in the tax brackets

Tax brackets are inflation adjusted.

So again, what is the value of one share of a corporation that can enslave a whole nation? And already has?

LOL! You tell me.

A share in the Federal Reserve is a share in a corporation that is the primary cause of slavery- tax slavery.

Your tinfoil is on too tight. It's cutting off the circulation to your brain.

36 posted on 07/03/2006 8:02:55 PM PDT by Toddsterpatriot (Why are protectionists so bad at math?)
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To: Toddsterpatriot

>>
Your tinfoil is on too tight. It's cutting off the circulation to your brain.
<<

Just try and escape the tax slavery we are in. Go ahead. Prove me wrong.


37 posted on 07/04/2006 5:19:50 AM PDT by theBuckwheat
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To: butternut_squash_bisque

How do you get a quarter into the neck of a Bud bottle?


38 posted on 07/04/2006 5:24:42 AM PDT by antivenom (If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much damn space!)
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To: theBuckwheat
Just try and escape the tax slavery we are in.

That's an issue that has nothing to do with the Federal Reserve.

Go ahead. Prove me wrong.

Again? I already refuted your "infinite value" assertion. Your higher inflation = higher tax brackets assertion. Your mark-to-market assertion. Your "Fed sets the prime rate" assertion. Your "the Fed earns money on their hiked prime rate" assertion.

I'm getting tired of proving you wrong. How about, for a change, you prove one of your assertions is correct? Loosen the tinfoil, let the blood flow return to your brain and give it a try. After so many years of wrong thinking, it may be difficult for you, but give it a try. Before it's too late.

39 posted on 07/04/2006 7:46:33 AM PDT by Toddsterpatriot (Why are protectionists so bad at math?)
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To: Extremely Extreme Extremist
But...but...prices will rise to the nearest nickel and it'll hurt the poor the most!

TAXES will rise by 5% increments instead of 1% increments. THAT is bad.

40 posted on 07/04/2006 7:47:42 AM PDT by freedumb2003 (Let them die of thirst in the dark.)
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To: theBuckwheat
So again, what is the value of one share of a corporation

A lot less than you think.

Who owns the Federal Reserve? The Federal Reserve System is not "owned" by anyone and is not a private, profit-making institution. Instead, it is an independent entity within the government, having both public purposes and private aspects.

As the nation's central bank, the Federal Reserve derives its authority from the U.S. Congress. It is considered an independent central bank because its decisions do not have to be ratified by the President or anyone else in the executive or legislative branch of government, it does not receive funding appropriated by Congress, and the terms of the members of the Board of Governors span multiple presidential and congressional terms. However, the Federal Reserve is subject to oversight by Congress, which periodically reviews its activities and can alter its responsibilities by statute. Also, the Federal Reserve must work within the framework of the overall objectives of economic and financial policy established by the government. Therefore, the Federal Reserve can be more accurately described as "independent within the government."

The twelve regional Federal Reserve Banks, which were established by Congress as the operating arms of the nation's central banking system, are organized much like private corporations--possibly leading to some confusion about "ownership." For example, the Reserve Banks issue shares of stock to member banks. However, owning Reserve Bank stock is quite different from owning stock in a private company. The Reserve Banks are not operated for profit, and ownership of a certain amount of stock is, by law, a condition of membership in the System. The stock may not be sold, traded, or pledged as security for a loan; dividends are, by law, 6 percent per year.

Hmmmmm....6% a year? Not as good as infinite profit, is it?

Who owns the Federal Reserve?

41 posted on 07/04/2006 8:00:33 AM PDT by Toddsterpatriot (Why are protectionists so bad at math?)
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To: DebtAndDelusion
I was born shortly after my namesake president Harding was elected.

I didn't know you had that many hours on your body Debt and Delusion. I always thought you were a young man with sharp mind somewhere in his 30's. I hope you take that as a compliment my friend. You take care now....

42 posted on 07/04/2006 6:31:05 PM PDT by bjs1779
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To: antivenom

It's one of those 2ft tall *bottle banks*, and the opening is 3-4" .

http://newfanglednovelties.com/


43 posted on 07/05/2006 4:44:11 AM PDT by butternut_squash_bisque (The recipe's at my FR HomePage. Try it!)
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To: butternut_squash_bisque

LOL!!! Thank you!


44 posted on 07/05/2006 6:26:02 PM PDT by antivenom (If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much damn space!)
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