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The Fish That Shoots Down Evolution
Vertical Thought Magazine ^ | June 2006 | Mario Seiglie

Posted on 07/04/2006 8:42:50 AM PDT by DouglasKC

The Fish That Shoots Down Evolution

This unusual fish uses a specialized system to blast insects out of the air. How could this evolve slowly over time when there is no survival advantage without the whole system working perfectly?

by Mario Seiglie

icon arrowIn Asia, Africa and Australia lives a remarkable creature, the archerfish, that shoots down its prey from the air above it with a burst of water. It uses its tongue and the top of its mouth to form a groove similar to a gun barrel. Then, by compressing its gills, it squirts water up to six feet with deadly accuracy—in spite of the distortion caused by seeing the target from below the surface of water.

photoWhat's so amazing about the archerfish's ability to shoot straight? When light passes between air and water, it is refracted, which causes a distortion. If an archerfish simply aimed at the object where it appeared to be from below the water, it could never hit its target! Yet scientists have found that archerfish are able to strike their target when sighting upwards at angles of 40 degrees!

More amazingly, marine researchers have discovered that these fish can hit their prey whether the amount of refraction is large or small. They have also found that the fishes' binocular vision allows them to see clearly at considerable distances above them, an ability other fish do not have.

An experiment

Here is an experiment. In a clear glass of water, hold a pencil at an angle halfway under the water and look at it from different positions. Notice how the pencil appears different below and above the water. That is the refraction of the light changing from the water to the air.

So how can the archerfish compensate for this distortion and know how to shoot at the right place?

Evolutionists don't know

Evolutionists still don't know how the archerfish got its amazing abilities. They can only wonder! Viewed through the distortion of evolution, they cannot explain how the archerfish gradually learned to not aim where its eyes see but to aim instead at a different spot where the target actually is.

Without its binocular vision, it could not see the object with such precision, and without the special shape of the upper mouth and a specialized tongue, it could not make the groove it needs to shoot the concentrated jet of water. Many factors have to appear together—and be perfectly formed—for this shooting mechanism to work. This, of course, goes totally against Charles Darwin's evolutionary theory, which is based on a gradual, step-by-step process.

Darwin wrote in The Origin of Species, "If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed, which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down" (1859, p. 171).

The archerfish offers precisely such an example, since several complex systems must all appear at the same time, perfectly and not gradually formed—binocular vision, a specialized mouth and tongue, specialized gills to compress and expel water and an aiming system based in the brain and not in the eyes. If any of these parts is missing, the mechanism will not hit the target and no survival advantage is created.

Shooting down Darwin's theory

When you get down to the facts, the archerfish with one squirt of its gills shoots down Charles Darwin's entire theory of evolution—and that by Darwin's own admission!

So evolution doesn't have the answer to this mystery. But the Bible does. Genesis 1:20-21 says that God created all the creatures that live in the water. He created a great variety of perfectly formed fish, including the archerfish with all its special features, such as binocular vision, other specialized organs and a built-in ability to compensate for the distortion of the water. VT



TOPICS: Culture/Society; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: anothercrevothread; creation; creationism; crevolist; enoughalready; evolution; fish; id; intelligentdesign; pavlovian
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To: Dimensio
How have you determined the existence of this "God"?

Through his calling.

When did "God" design and built this fish?

He probably designed it before time began. He built it, according to the bible, on the fifth day:

Gen 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

By what methods, processes and/or mechanisms was this fish designed and built? How have you determined that the fish was "designed and built"?

I can only speculate about that because God only knows.

101 posted on 07/04/2006 10:04:59 AM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: LauraleeBraswell

God did make the world in 7 days. The Bible implies relativity "1,000 years is like a day for you". Relativity tells us that the measure of time depends on the users reference point. So, the inspired word of God is that He made the world in seven days, even if we measure from our frame of reference in thousands of years or billions of years.


102 posted on 07/04/2006 10:05:42 AM PDT by sobieski
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To: Schweinhund

The ability to hit the target from an angle could easily have developed in small adjustments: the fish initially just does it vertically (90deg), where no refraction occurs, then learns to do it at 88deg, where there is a very small error, then 86deg and so on.


103 posted on 07/04/2006 10:06:32 AM PDT by expatpat
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To: LauraleeBraswell
And creationists do know? Is it because God made the earth in seven days? Does that adequately explain why this fish is able to spit at targets?

This wasn't about "creationists." Maybe they are all wet too. (Certainly it seems that there is some stuff around which is older than 6000 years old.) It was about evolution, and this was yet another counter example to that theory. So why did you bring up creationists?

ML/NJ

104 posted on 07/04/2006 10:06:46 AM PDT by ml/nj
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To: CzarNicky
"It apparently is when one believes an invisible man who lives in the sky made everything in a week and it hasn't changed since then."

LOL!

105 posted on 07/04/2006 10:07:22 AM PDT by Hound of the Baskervilles ("Well, Watson, we seem to have fallen upon evil days.")
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To: wbmstr24
you dont prove things with science?

That is correct. Explanations in science can never be absolutely proven.

since when?

Since always.

what are observation, testability and repeatability used for in the scientific method? window dressing???

They are used to establish confidence in or disprove a given claim. They will never amount to "proof" of a claim, however, no matter how much evidence acumulates to establish confidence in that claim. There is always the possibility that a given claim will be falsified through the observation of contradictory evidence.

God designed the creatures on this earth.

Please provide evidence to support this claim.
106 posted on 07/04/2006 10:07:30 AM PDT by Dimensio (http://angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif <-- required reading before you use your next apostrophe!)
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To: Oztrich Boy
Well think about it for a while, you'll be greatly puzzled

And what about the fact the human legs are exactly long enough to reach the ground and articulated so as to allow them to run upright after prey? What would be the use of a body that was only partially upright to run down gazelles? Clearly another miracle. And an opposable thumb. How would a partially opposable thumb be useful for anything? Clearly, life is just chock-a-block with maracles too numerous to count.

107 posted on 07/04/2006 10:08:35 AM PDT by donh (U)
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To: ml/nj
) It was about evolution, and this was yet another counter example to that theory.

It is a poor example, amounting to "argument from incredulity" with no evidence given to support the claims made.

So why did you bring up creationists?

The article brings up the subject of creationism, in support of the topic, in its final paragraph. If you had read the article, you would know this.
108 posted on 07/04/2006 10:08:53 AM PDT by Dimensio (http://angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif <-- required reading before you use your next apostrophe!)
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To: DouglasKC

Bump for reference.


109 posted on 07/04/2006 10:09:37 AM PDT by MeneMeneTekelUpharsin (Freedom is the freedom to discipline yourself so others don't have to do it for you.)
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To: phantomworker
God most certainly created this fish, and the mechanism he used was "numerous, successive, slight modifications".

Very succinctly put! This whole creation VERSUS evolution thing was made up of whole cloth in the 19th C. Evolution is part of God's magnificent creation: seven-day-literalists and militant atheists notwithstanding.

110 posted on 07/04/2006 10:09:52 AM PDT by agere_contra
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To: phantomworker
Why can't creationists also recognize evolution?

Because the God image they have fashioned is recognizable and identifiable. A God that can create the Earth and animals and stuff in a few days is easy to comprehend and deal with. Like Star Trek's "Q" without the attitude.

A God that can create an entire complex process that proceeds forward requiring millions (or billions) of years? That is a God that is too complex to deal with. Create a Universe with rules that mankind may never understand? Too humbling. Better that giraffes, chimps, starlings and ostriches all just come into existence *poof*. Much more manageable and you can actually get a simple mind around it.

111 posted on 07/04/2006 10:09:59 AM PDT by freedumb2003 (Let them die of thirst in the dark.)
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To: DouglasKC
What explains it is that God designed and built the fish that way.

well, that's that, so there .... And since that can pretty much be applied as a reply for any subject, why do we bother to study anything at all? .. Oh, wait, that's actually your point isn't it? There is no point to study or explain anything at all, God designed and built it that way and that's the answer to everything? I knew that's what I should have put down as answer in my Quantum Physics and Partial Differential Equation final exams :)

112 posted on 07/04/2006 10:10:13 AM PDT by Republican Party Reptile
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To: DouglasKC
Through his calling.

Please elaborate on this claim.

He probably designed it before time began. He built it, according to the bible, on the fifth day:

How can an event occur "before time began"? How do events happen without time? What evidence have you that the bible is an accurate source of information?

I can only speculate about that because God only knows.

Then you acknowledge that you have no evidence to support your claims at all?
113 posted on 07/04/2006 10:10:33 AM PDT by Dimensio (http://angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif <-- required reading before you use your next apostrophe!)
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To: wbmstr24
"you dont prove things with science? since when?"

Since always.

"what are observation, testability and repeatability used for in the scientific method?"

Raising ones confidence in their theories by adding more supporting evidence.
114 posted on 07/04/2006 10:11:25 AM PDT by CarolinaGuitarman (Gas up your tanks!!)
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To: George - the Other
"Genesis 1:20-21 says that God created all the creatures that live in the water. He created a great variety of perfectly formed fish, including the archerfish with all its special features."

My copy of the bible mentions nothing about archerfish.

My copy of the bible doesn' talk about the process God used to create all the creatures of the water, or the time frame.

Sure it does...It says he made the fish after their kind...And it says he did it in one day...

I do know that God created the universe, and in doing so, created the laws of physics that govern all of His creation.

So how do you know this if you don't know the other???Your trouble is you don't want to believe what you read...

115 posted on 07/04/2006 10:11:35 AM PDT by Iscool (I spent MOST of my MONEY on cold beer and hot women...The REST, I just wasted ...)
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To: Redcloak
The problem is the combination of "hardware" and "software". The groove in the fish's mouth is of little use without the instinct to spit water at insects sitting just above the surface.

It might not of started as an instinct, but as an accident. The fish with the groove propelled water out randomly, occasionally striking insects, by chance. Because it got to feed on those accidentally struck insects, it had a survival advantage. Over generations, the accidental effect became an instinct.

116 posted on 07/04/2006 10:12:30 AM PDT by Celtjew Libertarian
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To: Spottys Spurs
The Shinano, a 72-ton carrier, on its maiden voyage

A 72-ton carrier doesn't sound all that amazing :0)

117 posted on 07/04/2006 10:12:30 AM PDT by agere_contra
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To: DouglasKC
What explains it is that God designed and built the fish that way.

And signed His Name to it, just like the flagellum that kills infants and children.

118 posted on 07/04/2006 10:13:55 AM PDT by js1138 (Well I say there are some things we don't want to know! Important things!")
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To: DouglasKC
He probably designed it before time began.

When was this exactly?

119 posted on 07/04/2006 10:15:11 AM PDT by Oztrich Boy (No Christian will dare say that [Genesis] must not be taken in a figurative sense. St Augustine)
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To: freedumb2003
Good grief!

God created humor, too.

He?/She?Them? (Trinity) must be snickering at His?/Her?Their? children....trying to figure all this out.

:->

120 posted on 07/04/2006 10:15:25 AM PDT by Thumper1960 (Politicians are like diapers. They need changed often, and for the same reasons.)
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To: agere_contra
A 72-ton carrier doesn't sound all that amazing :0)

Sure it does. It's amazing you could land any kind of airplane on one so small.

121 posted on 07/04/2006 10:17:48 AM PDT by expatpat
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To: Republican Party Reptile
well, that's that, so there .... And since that can pretty much be applied as a reply for any subject, why do we bother to study anything at all? .. Oh, wait, that's actually your point isn't it? There is no point to study or explain anything at all, God designed and built it that way and that's the answer to everything? I knew that's what I should have put down as answer in my Quantum Physics and Partial Differential Equation final exams :)

It's actually a little more complex than that. If you want to study quantum physics go for it. It's a great science and I'm sure we create wonderful things with the knowledge we gain from studying God's creation. However, the problem comes when we start thinking that the creation is the be all and end all.

Rom 1:25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Spooky, ain't it?

The way to become wise is to understand that you don't know anything and not to lean on your own understanding. Instead, trust that God speaks to his servants through scripture and will lead you into all truth.

122 posted on 07/04/2006 10:18:21 AM PDT by DouglasKC
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Comment #123 Removed by Moderator

To: phantomworker
I can only imagine that the newest ideas in quantum physics like string theory, parallel universes and the theory that there are more than 4 dimensions must make the creationist heads explode.

Check out this link from Scientific American:

COSMOLOGY
Parallel Universes
Not just a staple of science fiction, other universes are a direct implication of cosmological observations
By Max Tegmark
"Is there a copy of you reading this article? A person who is not you but who lives on a planet called Earth, with misty mountains, fertile fields and sprawling cities, in a solar system with eight other planets? The life of this person has been identical to yours in every respect. But perhaps he or she now decides to put down this article without finishing it, while you read on. The idea of such an alter ego seems strange and implausible, but it looks as if we will just have to live with it, because it is supported by astronomical observations. The simplest and most popular cosmological model today predicts that you have a twin in a galaxy about 10 to the 1028 meters from here. This distance is so large that it is beyond astronomical, but that does not make your doppelgänger any less real.".....

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000F1EDD-B48A-1E90-8EA5809EC5880000

124 posted on 07/04/2006 10:19:29 AM PDT by Hound of the Baskervilles ("Well, Watson, we seem to have fallen upon evil days.")
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To: Oztrich Boy
He probably designed it before time began. When was this exactly?

Seriously? It wasn't a "when" it was before (for want of a better word) the creation of space/time, before the creation of our physical universe.

125 posted on 07/04/2006 10:20:11 AM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: freedumb2003
It is humbling that God created a process (Evolution) that ended up with such a beautifully complex thing such as a human being.

Which is, I think, just a subprocess of the larger process, by which complex order emerges from chaos. That, in my opinion, God's ultimate miracle of creation.

126 posted on 07/04/2006 10:20:21 AM PDT by Celtjew Libertarian
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To: DouglasKC
Interesting fish, interesting article.

This article is very similar to an article published in the Plain Truth magazine about 30 years ago. Nice to see it come around again...

127 posted on 07/04/2006 10:20:49 AM PDT by NCjim (The more I use Windows, the more I love UNIX)
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To: wbmstr24
no, its called variation, as those variation have certain limits and will not cross past them, thus the finches remain finches, the bacteria remain bacteria, the man and woman, remain men and women, that is called design.

Fascinating. What is the physical mechanism that defines the limits that cannot be crossed?

128 posted on 07/04/2006 10:21:26 AM PDT by Thatcherite (I'm PatHenry I'm the real PatHenry all the other PatHenrys are just imitators)
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To: js1138
And signed His Name to it, just like the flagellum that kills infants and children.

Actually that's an incorrect understanding. God designed nothing that kills. Death and destruction came about because of the rebellion of man and Satan.

129 posted on 07/04/2006 10:22:13 AM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: DouglasKC
Seriously? It wasn't a "when" it was before (for want of a better word) the creation of space/time, before the creation of our physical universe

Now that I agree with. It's a question, however, of whether he designed processes (and at what level) or end-products.

130 posted on 07/04/2006 10:22:32 AM PDT by Celtjew Libertarian
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To: DouglasKC

<< Mario Seiglie is a pastor of United Church of God congregations in Garden Grove, California, and Honolulu, Hawaii. >>

Stupid articles like this make it hard to take organized religion seriously.


131 posted on 07/04/2006 10:23:37 AM PDT by Ben Chad
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To: DouglasKC

So, when a zebra eats and kills grass, that is because he is a Satan infested sinner?

LOL


132 posted on 07/04/2006 10:24:02 AM PDT by Central Scrutiniser ("You can't really dust for vomit.")
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To: Ben Chad
It is a very idiotic article. But remember, the lead creationist went to college!


133 posted on 07/04/2006 10:26:18 AM PDT by Central Scrutiniser ("You can't really dust for vomit.")
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To: Thatcherite; wbmstr24
Fascinating. What is the physical mechanism that defines the limits that cannot be crossed?

Self correcting DNA. From Molecular Biology of the Cell

134 posted on 07/04/2006 10:26:42 AM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: Dimensio
What evidence have you that the bible is an accurate source of information?

For one, there are close to 50 predictions in the Bible that for-tell the events of Jesus' life on earth that have come to pass...

Mathematicians say that the odds of that happening are 1 in 10 (with 370 zeros after the ten)...That's far more than close enough for me...And should be for everyone...

135 posted on 07/04/2006 10:27:24 AM PDT by Iscool (I spent MOST of my MONEY on cold beer and hot women...The REST, I just wasted ...)
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To: DouglasKC
God designed nothing that kills. Death and destruction came about because of the rebellion of man and Satan.

So God didn't create Satan?

136 posted on 07/04/2006 10:27:46 AM PDT by Celtjew Libertarian
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To: Thumper1960
God created humor, too.

And I thank Him constantly for that.

137 posted on 07/04/2006 10:29:22 AM PDT by freedumb2003 (Let them die of thirst in the dark.)
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To: Central Scrutiniser

That is a classic!!!

I haven't seen it in quite some time! Thanks for bringing it back out for us. :)


138 posted on 07/04/2006 10:30:13 AM PDT by freedumb2003 (Let them die of thirst in the dark.)
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To: Central Scrutiniser
So, when a zebra eats and kills grass, that is because he is a Satan infested sinner? LOL

Not exactly. If you're truly interested I'll be glad to share it with you.

139 posted on 07/04/2006 10:31:02 AM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: DouglasKC
God designed nothing that kills. Death and destruction came about because of the rebellion of man and Satan.

So, the lion that goes after a gazelle is just playing? Carnivores had no need for meat before Satan?

140 posted on 07/04/2006 10:31:47 AM PDT by freedumb2003 (Let them die of thirst in the dark.)
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To: freedumb2003
I think you are right about the simple mindedness. And CRIDers also talk as if they have first dibs on getting through the Pearly Gates. (I have news for them, I'll be in there waiting! ;o)) I liked what you said earlier:

It is humbling that God created a process (Evolution) that ended up with such a beautifully complex thing such as a human being. It is sad that CRIDers put handcuffs on the ability of The Almighty.

141 posted on 07/04/2006 10:32:14 AM PDT by phantomworker (Live life so completely, when death comes like a thief in the night, there is nothing left to steal.)
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To: Celtjew Libertarian
So God didn't create Satan?

Of course he did. But he created him with free will, just as he created us with free will.

142 posted on 07/04/2006 10:32:41 AM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: DouglasKC
Of course he did. But he created him with free will, just as he created us with free will.

And free will doesn't have the capacity to kill?

143 posted on 07/04/2006 10:34:26 AM PDT by Celtjew Libertarian
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To: freedumb2003
So, the lion that goes after a gazelle is just playing? Carnivores had no need for meat before Satan?

Apparently not. But don't worry, you'll most likely get to witness it in the future when the restoration of all things occurs:

Isa 65:24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
Isa 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

144 posted on 07/04/2006 10:35:04 AM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: Iscool
For one, there are close to 50 predictions in the Bible that for-tell the events of Jesus' life on earth that have come to pass...

Please enumerate these predictions, and also explain how these predictions show that the Genesis creation account is accurate.
145 posted on 07/04/2006 10:35:05 AM PDT by Dimensio (http://angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif <-- required reading before you use your next apostrophe!)
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To: freedumb2003

Douglas is on a roll today, don't try to throw him off track with any logic or common sense. I love when he posts, its like watching a slow motion train wreck.


146 posted on 07/04/2006 10:35:46 AM PDT by Central Scrutiniser ("You can't really dust for vomit.")
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To: wbmstr24
fine, using that method, show me those three pillars and their 'establishing confidense in' evolutionism, i.e. fish to amphibians, dinosaurs to birds, etc....

I am not sure what you mean. What is "evolutionism"?
147 posted on 07/04/2006 10:36:43 AM PDT by Dimensio (http://angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif <-- required reading before you use your next apostrophe!)
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To: phantomworker

Thanks for seeing my point. I wish I could be a certain as you about me being at the Pearly Gates to greet them, but at least I will know that Hubris isn't one of the reasons I didn't make the grade.

And I feverently hope it will be a long, long time before you "greet" anyone at those gates ;)


148 posted on 07/04/2006 10:37:03 AM PDT by freedumb2003 (Let them die of thirst in the dark.)
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To: Brilliant
I'm a little puzzled about why this disproves evolution.

Puzzlement disproves evolution.

149 posted on 07/04/2006 10:38:09 AM PDT by Sandy
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To: DouglasKC

That's later.

Where is the reference to how there was no killing before Satan?


150 posted on 07/04/2006 10:38:21 AM PDT by freedumb2003 (Let them die of thirst in the dark.)
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