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The Fish That Shoots Down Evolution
Vertical Thought Magazine ^ | June 2006 | Mario Seiglie

Posted on 07/04/2006 8:42:50 AM PDT by DouglasKC

The Fish That Shoots Down Evolution

This unusual fish uses a specialized system to blast insects out of the air. How could this evolve slowly over time when there is no survival advantage without the whole system working perfectly?

by Mario Seiglie

icon arrowIn Asia, Africa and Australia lives a remarkable creature, the archerfish, that shoots down its prey from the air above it with a burst of water. It uses its tongue and the top of its mouth to form a groove similar to a gun barrel. Then, by compressing its gills, it squirts water up to six feet with deadly accuracy—in spite of the distortion caused by seeing the target from below the surface of water.

photoWhat's so amazing about the archerfish's ability to shoot straight? When light passes between air and water, it is refracted, which causes a distortion. If an archerfish simply aimed at the object where it appeared to be from below the water, it could never hit its target! Yet scientists have found that archerfish are able to strike their target when sighting upwards at angles of 40 degrees!

More amazingly, marine researchers have discovered that these fish can hit their prey whether the amount of refraction is large or small. They have also found that the fishes' binocular vision allows them to see clearly at considerable distances above them, an ability other fish do not have.

An experiment

Here is an experiment. In a clear glass of water, hold a pencil at an angle halfway under the water and look at it from different positions. Notice how the pencil appears different below and above the water. That is the refraction of the light changing from the water to the air.

So how can the archerfish compensate for this distortion and know how to shoot at the right place?

Evolutionists don't know

Evolutionists still don't know how the archerfish got its amazing abilities. They can only wonder! Viewed through the distortion of evolution, they cannot explain how the archerfish gradually learned to not aim where its eyes see but to aim instead at a different spot where the target actually is.

Without its binocular vision, it could not see the object with such precision, and without the special shape of the upper mouth and a specialized tongue, it could not make the groove it needs to shoot the concentrated jet of water. Many factors have to appear together—and be perfectly formed—for this shooting mechanism to work. This, of course, goes totally against Charles Darwin's evolutionary theory, which is based on a gradual, step-by-step process.

Darwin wrote in The Origin of Species, "If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed, which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down" (1859, p. 171).

The archerfish offers precisely such an example, since several complex systems must all appear at the same time, perfectly and not gradually formed—binocular vision, a specialized mouth and tongue, specialized gills to compress and expel water and an aiming system based in the brain and not in the eyes. If any of these parts is missing, the mechanism will not hit the target and no survival advantage is created.

Shooting down Darwin's theory

When you get down to the facts, the archerfish with one squirt of its gills shoots down Charles Darwin's entire theory of evolution—and that by Darwin's own admission!

So evolution doesn't have the answer to this mystery. But the Bible does. Genesis 1:20-21 says that God created all the creatures that live in the water. He created a great variety of perfectly formed fish, including the archerfish with all its special features, such as binocular vision, other specialized organs and a built-in ability to compensate for the distortion of the water. VT



TOPICS: Culture/Society; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: anothercrevothread; creation; creationism; crevolist; enoughalready; evolution; fish; id; intelligentdesign; pavlovian
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A fascinating fish...
1 posted on 07/04/2006 8:42:54 AM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: Junior; PatrickHenry

Ping...


2 posted on 07/04/2006 8:47:10 AM PDT by Pharmboy (Democrats lie because they must)
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To: DouglasKC

Good Luck and God Bless


3 posted on 07/04/2006 8:47:14 AM PDT by bmwcyle (Only stupid people would vote for McCain, Warner, Hagle, Snowe, Graham, or any RINO)
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To: Pharmboy
Thanks. I don't usually ping for stuff like this, but it's the 4th of July, so I'm going to make an exception. I'm cranking up the ping machine ...
4 posted on 07/04/2006 8:49:32 AM PDT by PatrickHenry (The Enlightenment gave us individual rights, free enterprise, and the theory of evolution.)
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To: DouglasKC

...a good catch...


5 posted on 07/04/2006 8:50:26 AM PDT by RaceBannon (Who wants to buy a flag car? Flag Car for sale, Inquire within)
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To: VadeRetro; Junior; longshadow; RadioAstronomer; Doctor Stochastic; js1138; Shryke; RightWhale; ...
Evolution Ping

The List-O-Links
A conservative, pro-evolution science list, now with over 380 names.
See the list's explanation, then FReepmail to be added or dropped.
To assist beginners: But it's "just a theory", Evo-Troll's Toolkit,
and How to argue against a scientific theory.

6 posted on 07/04/2006 8:51:00 AM PDT by PatrickHenry (The Enlightenment gave us individual rights, free enterprise, and the theory of evolution.)
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To: DouglasKC


And creationists do know? Is it because God made the earth in seven days? Does that adequately explain why this fish is able to spit at targets?


7 posted on 07/04/2006 8:58:56 AM PDT by LauraleeBraswell (Try reading the article before you post)
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To: PatrickHenry

Thanks for the ping!


8 posted on 07/04/2006 9:00:02 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: DouglasKC

Sounds like an open and shut case to me!!

*rolls eyes*


9 posted on 07/04/2006 9:00:56 AM PDT by ruiner
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To: PatrickHenry

Since they are prolific eaters and not all that picky, it may have developed as a sport. :)


10 posted on 07/04/2006 9:01:30 AM PDT by Old Professer (The critic writes with rapier pen, dips it twice, and writes again.)
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11 posted on 07/04/2006 9:02:17 AM PDT by Aetius
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To: LauraleeBraswell
And creationists do know? Is it because God made the earth in seven days? Does that adequately explain why this fish is able to spit at targets?

What explains it is that God designed and built the fish that way.

12 posted on 07/04/2006 9:02:27 AM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: LauraleeBraswell

"And creationists do know? Is it because God made the earth in seven days? Does that adequately explain why this fish is able to spit at targets?"

And Darwin is going to explain why chimps never evolved into anything?


13 posted on 07/04/2006 9:03:03 AM PDT by Beagle8U (Liberals get up every morning and eat a big box of STUPID for breakfast)
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To: DouglasKC
Seems to me that that the two systems could reinforce each other. Some fish is born a weird groove in its mouth that shoots water a short distance. It gets some hits by pure luck. One of its descendants gets a slight improvement in brain structure that lets it start to have better aim. A few generations more gets a better grove that can shoot further. A few generations later, aim improves for the longer range. Repeat as necessary.

Two different organs, but one system, therefore. Improvement in one part of it spurs improvement in the other.

14 posted on 07/04/2006 9:03:14 AM PDT by Celtjew Libertarian
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To: DouglasKC
Easy evolutionary explanation here:

The bug evolved from goo, right? So the fish evolved in one part of the lake and the bug evolved in the other part of the lake. The fish started to eat little amoebae to stay alive. Of course, this was after its eyes, gills, and digestive system had evolved so it could eat the little amoebae. (What it ate before then, I do not know.) One day 5,750,536,211 years ago, the fish and the bug met in the middle of the lake. The fish looked at its first meal with delight. The bug by that time had evolved into one of those bugs you see skittering around the surface of the lake, right? So when the fish lunged for its first real meal, the bug began skittering. But it skittered so fast due to fear that there was actually aerodynamic lift (probably the first instance of evolutionary Bernoulli's principle). As surprising as it might seem, the bug became airborne! It flew to the shore of the lake where it gave birth to other flying bugs. These bugs then stupidly flew too close to the surface of the lake, and Darwinian survival of the species continued. The ones who could fly higher - out of the reach of the fish - are ancestors of those we see today.

At least that's my explanation. :)
15 posted on 07/04/2006 9:03:54 AM PDT by DennisR (Look around - God is giving you countless observable clues of His existence!)
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To: DouglasKC

I'll reply for the other side here, b/c we know what's coming:

"This doesn't shoot down evolution, b/c by definition, nothing can. It is impossible to deny evolution and in fact it is so impossible that there should not even be any rational discussion. And furthermore, for the record, you non-evolutionists are a bunch of knuckle-dragging idiots. So there."

Perhaps someone will add something to that...but I doubt it.


16 posted on 07/04/2006 9:05:01 AM PDT by ConservativeDude
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To: All
For those who weren't here, we've been through this kind of issue before. There's always going to be another critter:

MARVEL OF GOD'S CREATION: The Bombardier Beetle. And oldie-goldie crevo thread from 5 years ago.
Bombardier Beetles and the Argument of Design. From Talk.Origins.
Another service of Darwin Central, the conspiracy that cares.

17 posted on 07/04/2006 9:05:04 AM PDT by PatrickHenry (The Enlightenment gave us individual rights, free enterprise, and the theory of evolution.)
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To: DouglasKC
Evolution v. Creation


18 posted on 07/04/2006 9:05:22 AM PDT by HighWheeler (A true liberal today is a combination of socialist, fascist, hypocrite, and anti-American.)
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To: DennisR
Wikipedia says the following:

Archerfish are remarkably accurate in their shooting, adult fish almost always hitting the target on the first shot. They can bring down an insect six feet above the water's surface. This is partially due to their good eyesight, but also because of their ability to compensate for the refraction which occurs when light travels through water. They do this by swimming directly under the prey, where the distortion is the least.

When their prey is spotted, the archerfish sticks its snout just above the surface and squirts a jet of water at its victim. It is able to do this because of the narrow groove it has at the top of its mouth. It presses its tongue against this groove to form a narrow channel, then contracts its gill covers to force a powerful jet of water through the channel.

The resulting jet of water can be up to 2-3 m long, but their accuracy only allows them to shoot insects 1-1.5 m away. If the first shot does not knock the victim into the water, the archerfish will keep trying. Young archerfish start shooting when about 2.5 cm long, but are inaccurate at first and must learn from experience.

19 posted on 07/04/2006 9:05:37 AM PDT by Schweinhund
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To: Old Professer
Since they are prolific eaters and not all that picky, it may have developed as a sport. :)

More likely they hung around in barrooms practicing drunk hitting the spittoons. When they sober up they can easily hit a fly in air while underwater accounting for the bend in the light.

20 posted on 07/04/2006 9:06:27 AM PDT by LoneRangerMassachusetts (Illegal Aliens will take down the Democrats and Republicans and give rise to a new American party)
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To: PatrickHenry

"Dang, it's the dung beetles again, and they've got their you-know-what with them!" Far Side caption


21 posted on 07/04/2006 9:06:33 AM PDT by tumblindice ("`Racist': anyone beating a liberal in argument.".... A. Coulter)
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To: DouglasKC

Incrementalism is what makes evolution credible. One mutation and a resulting change in survivability, followed by another... So is it not possible that this fish got to its present state through small changes? I think so.

Fish have had hundreds of millions of years to learn how to capture insects on or near the water. Reasonably, strategies that made sense and that were genetically selected involved getting the prey wet. From getting insects wet, to spitting on them, to spitting accurately, is very reasonable chain of small changes.


22 posted on 07/04/2006 9:07:11 AM PDT by Tax Government (Defeat the evil miscreant donkeys and their rhino lackeys.)
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To: PatrickHenry
If I don't know and you can't make me know, Goddidit. And that's the real science.
23 posted on 07/04/2006 9:07:14 AM PDT by VadeRetro (Faster than a speeding building; able to leap tall bullets at a single bound!)
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To: LauraleeBraswell

Is it because God made the earth in seven days?"

God made the earth in one day. In six days He created everything.On the seventh day He rested.


24 posted on 07/04/2006 9:07:56 AM PDT by philetus (Keep doing what you always do and you'll keep getting what you always get.)
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To: DouglasKC
Had an uncle who could hit a spitoon with repeated deadly accuracy from seven paces.

This wouldn't be remarkable, except that he was stone blind, knee crawling drunk when performing this feat.

25 posted on 07/04/2006 9:10:19 AM PDT by FixitGuy
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To: DouglasKC

What a load.

Talk about grasping for straws.

The fish either compensates by trial and error in its primitive little brain, or evolution has built in the compensation.


26 posted on 07/04/2006 9:10:21 AM PDT by Vaquero ("An armed society is a polite society" Robert A. Heinlein(the moon is a harsh mistress))
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To: philetus
God made the earth in one day. In six days He created everything.On the seventh day He rested.

Actually he goofed off for five days, then pulled an all-nighter.

27 posted on 07/04/2006 9:10:21 AM PDT by Celtjew Libertarian
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To: philetus
God made the earth in one day. In six days He created everything.On the seventh day He rested.

Actually He goofed off for five days, then pulled an all-nighter.

28 posted on 07/04/2006 9:10:40 AM PDT by Celtjew Libertarian
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To: FixitGuy

PS. This feat evolved pover 15 years of drinking.


29 posted on 07/04/2006 9:11:30 AM PDT by FixitGuy
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To: DouglasKC
"Genesis 1:20-21 says that God created all the creatures that live in the water. He created a great variety of perfectly formed fish, including the archerfish with all its special features."

My copy of the bible mentions nothing about archerfish.

My copy of the bible doesn' talk about the process God used to create all the creatures of the water, or the time frame.

I do know that God created the universe, and in doing so, created the laws of physics that govern all of His creation.

I know that through the intelligence God has given us, learned men have been discovering the laws of physics, God's law, and have used this knowledge to gain an understanding as to the Earth and life evolved.

Sciences like stratigraphy and processes like radiometric dating, all based on the laws of physics, laws created by God, show that life on this planet evolved over a period of immense time.

George
30 posted on 07/04/2006 9:11:55 AM PDT by George - the Other (Ever notice how Narrow-Minded atheists are?)
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Comment #31 Removed by Moderator

To: FixitGuy
pover = over

Sorry, evolving a 6th finger on right hand.

32 posted on 07/04/2006 9:12:40 AM PDT by FixitGuy
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To: DouglasKC

The Left will say that Darwin designed the fish that way.


33 posted on 07/04/2006 9:13:00 AM PDT by InvisibleChurch (No.... wire .... hangers!)
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To: Celtjew Libertarian
There is also the question whether the fish knows it's compensating.

It sees a bug THERE. It knows when it spits, the spit goes in THAT direction. That's all that's necessary. The fact that THERE and THAT are not really in the direction the fish sees is immaterial.

34 posted on 07/04/2006 9:13:19 AM PDT by Oztrich Boy (No Christian will dare say that [Genesis] must not be taken in a figurative sense. St Augustine)
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Wonderful Irony Placemarker
35 posted on 07/04/2006 9:13:24 AM PDT by CarolinaGuitarman (Gas up your tanks!!)
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To: Vaquero
The fish either compensates by trial and error in its primitive little brain, or evolution has built in the compensation.

I found your statement interesting. If just one word were altered:

The fish either compensates by trial and error in its primitive little brain, or evolution God has built in the compensation.

36 posted on 07/04/2006 9:13:27 AM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: Beagle8U

"And Darwin is going to explain why chimps never evolved into anything?"

My guess is that they evolved into liberals :)


37 posted on 07/04/2006 9:13:38 AM PDT by George - the Other (Ever notice how Narrow-Minded atheists are?)
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To: FixitGuy

PS. This feat evolved pover 15 years of drinking."

You're drinking now, aren't you?


38 posted on 07/04/2006 9:13:49 AM PDT by philetus (Keep doing what you always do and you'll keep getting what you always get.)
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To: Beagle8U
And Darwin is going to explain why chimps never evolved into anything

They evolved into CHIMPS!

They were a different ape like creature....and certain members of the specie adapted into Chimps and some into Humans.

in the future they will either die out or stay relatively the same or evolve into something else....is that too hard of a concept to accept?

39 posted on 07/04/2006 9:14:24 AM PDT by Vaquero ("An armed society is a polite society" Robert A. Heinlein(the moon is a harsh mistress))
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To: FixitGuy
Had an uncle who could hit a spitoon with repeated deadly accuracy from seven paces. This wouldn't be remarkable, except that he was stone blind, knee crawling drunk when performing this feat.

Now that's talent...

40 posted on 07/04/2006 9:16:11 AM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: DouglasKC

God made him do it!


41 posted on 07/04/2006 9:16:44 AM PDT by Schweinhund
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To: wbmstr24
yeah, its all pretty simple when you dont have to prove it.

This isn't an argument against evolution that requires proof to be contradicted. The argument is that evolution could not have created the archerfish. All that's necessary is to posit a way that evolution could -- not prove that that was exact way -- and the argument that it couldn't have happened falls apart.

42 posted on 07/04/2006 9:16:57 AM PDT by Celtjew Libertarian
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To: DouglasKC
or evolution God

whatever you need to do to maintain your faith is fine with me.....wrong, but fine with me

43 posted on 07/04/2006 9:17:26 AM PDT by Vaquero ("An armed society is a polite society" Robert A. Heinlein(the moon is a harsh mistress))
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To: DouglasKC
Evolutionists still don't know how the archerfish got its amazing abilities. They can only wonder!

Heh!

44 posted on 07/04/2006 9:18:31 AM PDT by hsalaw
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To: DouglasKC

Interesting that you posted this crevo article under philosophy and culture not science and religion. Does the United Church of God (the publishers of this article) believe creationism is a philosophy and not a science? Or is that selection simply your personal belief system apart from this church?


45 posted on 07/04/2006 9:19:41 AM PDT by sully777 (wWBBD: What would Brian Boitano do?)
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To: George - the Other

"My guess is that they evolved into liberals :)"

LOL..True, Only liberals and Darwinists would spend so much time and money making monkeys of themselves.


46 posted on 07/04/2006 9:20:01 AM PDT by Beagle8U (Liberals get up every morning and eat a big box of STUPID for breakfast)
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To: philetus
"You're drinking now, aren't you?"

Yes, tea..but it's really old tea.

47 posted on 07/04/2006 9:20:07 AM PDT by FixitGuy
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To: Beagle8U

"LOL..True, Only liberals and Darwinists would spend so much time and money making monkeys of themselves."

I would add Creationists to that list too ...


48 posted on 07/04/2006 9:21:39 AM PDT by George - the Other (Ever notice how Narrow-Minded atheists are?)
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To: Schweinhund
Young archerfish start shooting when about 2.5 cm long, but are inaccurate at first and must learn from experience.

Anthropomorphism at it's finest.

49 posted on 07/04/2006 9:22:00 AM PDT by Mike Darancette (Make them go home!!)
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To: DouglasKC
A fascinating fish...
But are they good eating?
50 posted on 07/04/2006 9:24:55 AM PDT by Bratch
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