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The Fish That Shoots Down Evolution
Vertical Thought Magazine ^ | June 2006 | Mario Seiglie

Posted on 07/04/2006 8:42:50 AM PDT by DouglasKC

The Fish That Shoots Down Evolution

This unusual fish uses a specialized system to blast insects out of the air. How could this evolve slowly over time when there is no survival advantage without the whole system working perfectly?

by Mario Seiglie

icon arrowIn Asia, Africa and Australia lives a remarkable creature, the archerfish, that shoots down its prey from the air above it with a burst of water. It uses its tongue and the top of its mouth to form a groove similar to a gun barrel. Then, by compressing its gills, it squirts water up to six feet with deadly accuracy—in spite of the distortion caused by seeing the target from below the surface of water.

photoWhat's so amazing about the archerfish's ability to shoot straight? When light passes between air and water, it is refracted, which causes a distortion. If an archerfish simply aimed at the object where it appeared to be from below the water, it could never hit its target! Yet scientists have found that archerfish are able to strike their target when sighting upwards at angles of 40 degrees!

More amazingly, marine researchers have discovered that these fish can hit their prey whether the amount of refraction is large or small. They have also found that the fishes' binocular vision allows them to see clearly at considerable distances above them, an ability other fish do not have.

An experiment

Here is an experiment. In a clear glass of water, hold a pencil at an angle halfway under the water and look at it from different positions. Notice how the pencil appears different below and above the water. That is the refraction of the light changing from the water to the air.

So how can the archerfish compensate for this distortion and know how to shoot at the right place?

Evolutionists don't know

Evolutionists still don't know how the archerfish got its amazing abilities. They can only wonder! Viewed through the distortion of evolution, they cannot explain how the archerfish gradually learned to not aim where its eyes see but to aim instead at a different spot where the target actually is.

Without its binocular vision, it could not see the object with such precision, and without the special shape of the upper mouth and a specialized tongue, it could not make the groove it needs to shoot the concentrated jet of water. Many factors have to appear together—and be perfectly formed—for this shooting mechanism to work. This, of course, goes totally against Charles Darwin's evolutionary theory, which is based on a gradual, step-by-step process.

Darwin wrote in The Origin of Species, "If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed, which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down" (1859, p. 171).

The archerfish offers precisely such an example, since several complex systems must all appear at the same time, perfectly and not gradually formed—binocular vision, a specialized mouth and tongue, specialized gills to compress and expel water and an aiming system based in the brain and not in the eyes. If any of these parts is missing, the mechanism will not hit the target and no survival advantage is created.

Shooting down Darwin's theory

When you get down to the facts, the archerfish with one squirt of its gills shoots down Charles Darwin's entire theory of evolution—and that by Darwin's own admission!

So evolution doesn't have the answer to this mystery. But the Bible does. Genesis 1:20-21 says that God created all the creatures that live in the water. He created a great variety of perfectly formed fish, including the archerfish with all its special features, such as binocular vision, other specialized organs and a built-in ability to compensate for the distortion of the water. VT



TOPICS: Culture/Society; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: anothercrevothread; creation; creationism; crevolist; enoughalready; evolution; fish; id; intelligentdesign; pavlovian
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To: DouglasKC
What explains it is that God designed and built the fish that way.

And how did staph aureus develop resistance to penicillin? Were those bugs created in the first six days? Hopefully you wont get a staph infection but if you do you can specifically request a first generation antibiotic and then you can have a nice discussion in the afterlife about the subject.

51 posted on 07/04/2006 9:25:21 AM PDT by corkoman
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Comment #52 Removed by Moderator

To: sully777
Interesting that you posted this crevo article under philosophy and culture not science and religion. Does the United Church of God (the publishers of this article) believe creationism is a philosophy and not a science? Or is that selection simply your personal belief system apart from this church?

I don't usually put a lot of thought into selecting the topics. It's a good question though. Science of course doesn't accept it as science, but I believe that eventually scientists will smack their heads and say "It was so obvious, what was I thinking?".

53 posted on 07/04/2006 9:28:15 AM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: hsalaw

I'd place the odds that the author of this piece carefully researched and read all the academic literature on archerfish and their fossil history and evolution at about .000000000000000000000000000000001%.


54 posted on 07/04/2006 9:28:21 AM PDT by Strategerist
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To: Bratch
But are they good eating?

Oh sure, if you like food that spits... :-)

55 posted on 07/04/2006 9:30:06 AM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: corkoman

And how did staph aureus develop resistance to penicillin? Were those bugs created in the first six days? Hopefully you wont get a staph infection but if you do you can specifically request a first generation antibiotic and then you can have a nice discussion in the afterlife about the subject.



Haven't you heard, God heals. No wait, God heals whom he wants to heal. No wait, God stopped healing after 31 CE. Well, okay sometimes he'll heal you if you beg him incessantly. But he won't heal you if you go to doctors/scientists because they study evolution.


56 posted on 07/04/2006 9:30:16 AM PDT by sully777 (wWBBD: What would Brian Boitano do?)
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To: corkoman

"Develop" a resistance? The strains that had resistance are still around and those that did not aren't still around.


57 posted on 07/04/2006 9:31:47 AM PDT by Republican Wildcat
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To: corkoman
And how did staph aureus develop resistance to penicillin? Were those bugs created in the first six days? Hopefully you wont get a staph infection but if you do you can specifically request a first generation antibiotic and then you can have a nice discussion in the afterlife about the subject.

You've probably heard this before, but God designed a wide degree of variability into humans and animals so that we could survive in a number of different environments and circumstances. It would be a pretty poor design if an entire species got wiped out because the temperature dropped a degree.

58 posted on 07/04/2006 9:32:55 AM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: Schweinhund
Young archerfish start shooting when about 2.5 cm long, but are inaccurate at first and must learn from experience.

Or die trying... a perfect example of natural selection.

59 posted on 07/04/2006 9:33:02 AM PDT by killjoy (Dirka dirka mohammed jihad! Sherpa sherpa bakalah!)
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To: LauraleeBraswell

I'm a little puzzled about why this disproves evolution.


60 posted on 07/04/2006 9:36:06 AM PDT by Brilliant
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To: wbmstr24
positing a way that evolutionism could do something still doesnt work as you need need to prove that 'posit(s)' with experimentation, observation and repeatability.....and that isnt going to happen......

Not in this case. All the argument is, is that the theory of evolution cannot account for the archerfish. I posited a way that it could.

That the theory of evolution could account for it is not proof that evolution did do it. However, it contradicts the statement that the theory of evolution could not have done it.

Even if the theory of evolution is wrong and the universe was created by God in six, 24-hour days, the theory can still account for the development of the archerfish.

61 posted on 07/04/2006 9:36:25 AM PDT by Celtjew Libertarian
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To: DouglasKC
Darwin wrote in The Origin of Species, "If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed, which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down" (1859, p. 171).

God most certainly created this fish, and the mechanism he used was "numerous, successive, slight modifications".

62 posted on 07/04/2006 9:38:14 AM PDT by phantomworker (Live life so completely, when death comes like a thief in the night, there is nothing left to steal.)
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To: killjoy
Young archerfish start shooting when about 2.5 cm long, but are inaccurate at first and must learn from experience. Or die trying... a perfect example of natural selection.

What tells them that they can shoot water out of their mouth at insects above the surface of the water?

63 posted on 07/04/2006 9:42:15 AM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: DouglasKC

I've kept the fish in my tank when I had one. Fascinating, but not the superfish the article makes of them. They will shoot water at any dark spot they will see on the aquarium top.

As for their abilities, they came via evolution, those fish that could shoot had an advantage and they passed it on.

But to say that the archerfish disproves evolution? Nonsense! This article has no depth to it, no way of explaining its premise, and no proof offered other than calling it some kind of miracle.


64 posted on 07/04/2006 9:42:49 AM PDT by Central Scrutiniser ("You can't really dust for vomit.")
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To: sully777

I'm pretty convinced about evolution. After all, we're seeing lots of species mutate these days due to intense environmental pressure. For example, squirrels now mate three weeks early because of global warming. That proves they've become a new species. There is also a North American field mouse who, if it lives in the eastern half of the US, won't mate with the ones in the western half of the US. There you go. More new species, just like Darwin predicted. I guess the fruit fly mutants count, even though it's not really natural selection because Man is the one sorting them out. But it's close enough, isn't it? Only a moron wouldn't believe those proofs, right?


65 posted on 07/04/2006 9:43:15 AM PDT by JusPasenThru (Democrats have bad karma.)
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To: Vaquero
...or evolution has built in the compensation.

Maybe there is a spotter fish just out of view calling out windage, distance and elevation to the archer fish?

/

66 posted on 07/04/2006 9:49:22 AM PDT by IllumiNaughtyByNature (My Pug is On Her War Footing (and moving to Texas!))
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To: Celtjew Libertarian
The problem is the combination of "hardware" and "software". The groove in the fish's mouth is of little use without the instinct to spit water at insects sitting just above the surface. On the other hand, to instinct to spit water doesn't get a fish a meal if the water doesn't have the groove to guide it. Making things worse, I can't imagine a half-formed groove, or half-coded instinct to spit being of any use at all; even if the other component is in place. Getting hardware and software to evolve in tandem seems highly improbable.

(And on an aside, the refraction problem is the easy one to solve; evolve a downward tipped groove. Either that or the ability to compensate is a learned behavior. Assuming that the former is the case, the micro-evolution necessary to merely tweak the system is a higher probability event and easier to imagine happening than the system evolving in toto.)
67 posted on 07/04/2006 9:50:23 AM PDT by Redcloak (Speak softly and wear a loud shirt.)
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To: phantomworker
God most certainly created this fish, and the mechanism he used was "numerous, successive, slight modifications".

Would you be able to tell the difference if these numerous, successive, slight modifications were done rapidly as opposed to a long period of time? For example, I picture God has having a master program for a generic fish. Each different type of fish has a slightly different program alterations, but they all use a basic fish program.

68 posted on 07/04/2006 9:50:48 AM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: LauraleeBraswell

Yes Creationists do know.
God made it that way.
Just right the first time.
Just because some folks hold the 7 days, 6,000 year theory dear, doesn't mean that is the view of all Creationists.
Creation does not preclude adaptation within a species (given the traditional definition of "species").
It does preclude transition from one species to another.
I for one, am not stuck on any particular time table for the Creation or the age of the earth.


69 posted on 07/04/2006 9:52:41 AM PDT by G Larry (Only strict constructionists on the Supreme Court!)
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To: wbmstr24
yeah, its all pretty simple when you dont have to prove it.

You don't prove things in science, you just bet the best odds available. Which of these is the most credible story, all else being equal: 1) God decided, just for his amusement, to make archerfish with this weird ability to calculate refraction angles, because archerfish are God's Chosen Creatures, I guess. 2) Archerfish learned to shoot prey that was stright overhead, and then got better at calculating angles because the archerfish who got more prey ate better and so had more offspring.

Yea, it's pretty simple to propose a lame creationist theory when you don't have look at it, or justify it, or defend its nonsensical implications, with any sort of detailed defense, and are content to just generally pee-spray on any competing idea.

70 posted on 07/04/2006 9:53:17 AM PDT by donh (U)
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To: All
Fellow eviiiilutionists, we must DESTROY the archer fish! It cannot be allowed to mock us!! Release the Finches!

Wait, I know: Suicide bombardier beetles! Kill two birds with one stone! Muwahahahahaha!

71 posted on 07/04/2006 9:53:20 AM PDT by Stultis (I don't worry about the war turning into "Vietnam" in Iraq; I worry about it doing so in Congress.)
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To: Oztrich Boy
There is also the question whether the fish knows it's compensating. It sees a bug THERE. It knows when it spits, the spit goes in THAT direction. That's all that's necessary. The fact that THERE and THAT are not really in the direction the fish sees is immaterial.

Correct. And it's the same for humans.

The image that is projected on the retina by the lens of your eye is upside down and backwards. You can prove this by closing your eye, pressing gently on the eyeball at the edges of your eye sockets, and observing where the dark spot in your vision appears. The wiring in your optic nerves and brain corrects for this inversion without your conscious effort.

Likewise, the wiring of the eyes and brain in the archer fish has evolved in such a way that it automatically compensates for refraction. There is no mystery here, and I find this a pathetically weak argument in favor of young-Earth creationism.

-ccm

72 posted on 07/04/2006 9:54:03 AM PDT by ccmay (Too much Law; not enough Order)
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To: DouglasKC
More amazingly, marine researchers have discovered that these fish can hit their prey whether the amount of refraction is large or small. They have also found that the fishes' binocular vision allows them to see clearly at considerable distances above them, an ability other fish do not have.

IOW, it has developed over time the ability to thrive in its environment.

The author makes the blatant assertion that "Evolutionists can't explain this." That is bunk BY DEFINITION. "Evolutionists" (whatever the heck that is) can't always explain WHY a species adapts to its enviroment (kind of a reverse engineering) -- but they strive to put the peices together. The fact this fish has adapted provides FURTHER PROOF of TToE.

The straws that the CRIDers will grasp....

73 posted on 07/04/2006 9:54:20 AM PDT by freedumb2003 (Let them die of thirst in the dark.)
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To: DouglasKC

God created evolution. And He did a darn good job of it.


74 posted on 07/04/2006 9:55:27 AM PDT by Fresh Wind (Democrats are guilty of whatever they scream the loudest about.)
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To: CarolinaGuitarman
Wonderful Irony Placemarker

Truth is beauty and beauty is truth. Thank goodness we don't have a court that removes life from those who have neither, else we wouldn't have CRIDer to have these little chats with (/Hitchhikers reference)

75 posted on 07/04/2006 9:56:13 AM PDT by freedumb2003 (Let them die of thirst in the dark.)
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To: DouglasKC
What explains it is that God designed and built the fish that way.

How have you determined the existence of this "God"? When did "God" design and built this fish? By what methods, processes and/or mechanisms was this fish designed and built? How have you determined that the fish was "designed and built"?
76 posted on 07/04/2006 9:57:15 AM PDT by Dimensio (http://angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif <-- required reading before you use your next apostrophe!)
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To: LoneRangerMassachusetts
"More likely they hung around in barrooms practicing drunk hitting the spittoons."

Which supports the adage and probably is the origin of that you should never bet anyone in a bar that says, "I'll bet you I can [fill in the blank].]

77 posted on 07/04/2006 9:57:29 AM PDT by DaGman
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To: Vaquero
in the future they will either die out or stay relatively the same or evolve into something else....is that too hard of a concept to accept?

It apparently is when one believes an invisible man who lives in the sky made everything in a week and it hasn't changed since then.

78 posted on 07/04/2006 9:57:39 AM PDT by CzarNicky (In the magical land of unicorns there's no need for clothes.)
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To: Brilliant
I'm a little puzzled about why this disproves evolution.

Well think about it for a while, you'll be greatly puzzled

79 posted on 07/04/2006 9:58:12 AM PDT by Oztrich Boy (No Christian will dare say that [Genesis] must not be taken in a figurative sense. St Augustine)
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Comment #80 Removed by Moderator

To: freedumb2003
The fact this fish has adapted provides FURTHER PROOF of TToE.

Isn't that circular logic? Because it exists, that proves that evolution is true?

81 posted on 07/04/2006 9:58:31 AM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: Redcloak
On the other hand, to instinct to spit water doesn't get a fish a meal if the water doesn't have the groove to guide it

Unless it starts out eating baby water skimmers.

82 posted on 07/04/2006 9:58:36 AM PDT by donh (U)
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To: DouglasKC; All
---NEWSFLASH FROM PLANET EARTH---

Neither every goldang unusual natural phenomenon nor every strange critter is a dadburn miracle!

If everything is a miracle, then nothing is a miracle. Comprendez? Capiche?

Anyway, Happy 4th of July!

83 posted on 07/04/2006 9:59:37 AM PDT by headsonpikes (Genocide is the highest sacrament of socialism.)
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To: ccmay
The image that is projected on the retina by the lens of your eye is upside down and backwards. You can prove this by closing your eye, pressing gently on the eyeball at the edges of your eye sockets, and observing where the dark spot in your vision appears. The wiring in your optic nerves and brain corrects for this inversion without your conscious effort.

have you ever done "blind spot" experiments? The ability of the brain to provide missing information, even very complex patterns, freaks me out as much as (or ore than) an episode of "MindFreak."

It is humbling that God created a process (Evolution) that ended up with such a beautifully complex thing such as a human being.

It is sad that CRIDers put handcuffs on the ability of The Almighty.

84 posted on 07/04/2006 9:59:49 AM PDT by freedumb2003 (Let them die of thirst in the dark.)
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To: wbmstr24
you posited a way that is not verifiable, so it is no more than an opinion, not science.

It does not matter, as the initial argument itself is not science, but rather an appeal to a logical fallacy. All that is needed is to show that the claim is false.
85 posted on 07/04/2006 10:00:02 AM PDT by Dimensio (http://angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif <-- required reading before you use your next apostrophe!)
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To: DouglasKC
You've probably heard this before, but God designed a wide degree of variability into humans and animals so that we could survive in a number of different environments

You're right, and it's called evolution by variation and selection.

86 posted on 07/04/2006 10:00:02 AM PDT by donh (U)
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To: DouglasKC
"GOD has built in the compensation."

Here's your answer, once and for all. Ready???

Drum-roll please....

GOD CREATED EVOLUTION!!!!

TA DA!!!

Stop wasting your time worrying about evolution. The theory of evolution is not even a remote threat to faith. Geesh!

87 posted on 07/04/2006 10:00:14 AM PDT by Hound of the Baskervilles ("Well, Watson, we seem to have fallen upon evil days.")
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To: DouglasKC

The Archerfish also has another special significance.

During World War II, the USS Archer-Fish, a submarine, discovered, followed and sunk the mightiest Japanese aircraft carrier ever built, the Shinano. The Shinano, a 72-ton carrier, on its maiden voyage.. was sunk before she ever fired a shot!


88 posted on 07/04/2006 10:00:49 AM PDT by Spottys Spurs
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To: Beagle8U
And Darwin is going to explain why chimps never evolved into anything?

Into what should chimps evolve, and why?
89 posted on 07/04/2006 10:00:52 AM PDT by Dimensio (http://angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif <-- required reading before you use your next apostrophe!)
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To: DouglasKC

That could be. Darwin wrote that 150 years ago. He did not have the means to view rapid evolution like we do today. As I understand, evolution says nothing about origin, that's why I don't understand why creationists have their panties in such a knot.

Why can't creationists also recognize evolution?


90 posted on 07/04/2006 10:00:58 AM PDT by phantomworker (Live life so completely, when death comes like a thief in the night, there is nothing left to steal.)
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To: LauraleeBraswell
Does that adequately explain why this fish is able to spit at targets?

The existence of God would explain it. Why wouldn't it?

92 posted on 07/04/2006 10:02:41 AM PDT by Tribune7
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To: George - the Other
Sciences like stratigraphy and processes like radiometric dating, all based on the laws of physics, laws created by God, show that life on this planet evolved over a period of immense time.

Psssst!

God's messing with your head.

;->

93 posted on 07/04/2006 10:03:14 AM PDT by Thumper1960 (Politicians are like diapers. They need changed often, and for the same reasons.)
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To: LauraleeBraswell

And creationists do know? Is it because God made the earth in seven days? Does that adequately explain why this fish is able to spit at targets?

_________________________

You are asking the wrong question. WHY is never an answerable question. Antecedents are never knowable. Causes expand backward to include an infinity of alternatives.
The only valid question is WHAT. By understanding WHAT the fish is doing we are able to learn HOW it occurs. HOW gives us imagination and invention.
A piece of wood, a spring and 2 or 3 pieces of wire are not a mousetrap. To kill mice is WHAT, unless, that is, you are making a model airplane - another WHAT. In which case HOW is instrumental.
Without thought no amount of random shaking together produces a mousetrap or a model airplane. WHAT is the ineffible force that creates each.


94 posted on 07/04/2006 10:03:25 AM PDT by Louis Foxwell
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To: JusPasenThru

Perhaps, if you restricted your arguments to reality rather than absurd strawmen, you would carry more credibility.


95 posted on 07/04/2006 10:03:35 AM PDT by Dimensio (http://angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif <-- required reading before you use your next apostrophe!)
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To: DouglasKC
Isn't that circular logic? Because it exists, that proves that evolution is true?

Because it has evolved special skills unique to its environment proves that TToE is true.

But to some degree, TToE says "survivors survive." This is not circular logic -- it is a theory based on the observation on how so many different species under different circumstances physically change over time to adapt to their environment. Those that cannot adapt cease to exist (despite the example of Liberals, but this is over a LONG period of time).

Existence IS proof of TToE.

96 posted on 07/04/2006 10:03:40 AM PDT by freedumb2003 (Let them die of thirst in the dark.)
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To: DouglasKC
A fascinating fish...

No doubt...They apparently can determine trajectory, altitude, velocity, wind speed and direction, speed of the flying bug, as well as anticipate the bug's changes in direction, speed, etc...

They're smarter than I am (no comments please)...

I wonder if anyone's ask them their views on evolution...

97 posted on 07/04/2006 10:03:43 AM PDT by Iscool (I spent MOST of my MONEY on cold beer and hot women...The REST, I just wasted ...)
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Comment #98 Removed by Moderator

To: Thumper1960
God's messing with your head.

LOL!!! You're gonna get it!!!!!

99 posted on 07/04/2006 10:04:36 AM PDT by freedumb2003 (Let them die of thirst in the dark.)
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To: Hound of the Baskervilles
The theory of evolution is not even a remote threat to faith. Geesh!

LOLOL! Well said.

100 posted on 07/04/2006 10:04:58 AM PDT by phantomworker (Live life so completely, when death comes like a thief in the night, there is nothing left to steal.)
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