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Polish MEP praising General Franco sparks parliament clash
EUobserver ^ | 04.07.2006 | Kubosova

Posted on 07/04/2006 9:21:04 AM PDT by Lukasz

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To: sobieski

Well, they chose well.


21 posted on 07/04/2006 10:11:53 AM PDT by GSlob
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To: Iris7; ninenot; sittnick; steve50; Hegemony Cricket; Willie Green; Wolfie; ex-snook; FITZ; arete; ..
After real experience on the ground, wise and tired, he wrote 1984.

To be exact he wrote 1984 after his experience with work for BBC.

It was his Homage to Catalonia that he wrote after his experience with Spanish Civil War.

He predicted the Perestroika and Piratization of Eastern Europe in Animal Farm

22 posted on 07/04/2006 10:17:14 AM PDT by A. Pole (George Orwell: "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act.")
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To: Lukasz

You might want to read "Homage to Catalonia", Orwell's account of the time he spent serving in an Anarcho-Syndicalist militia in the Spanish Civil War. Most of the parties on the Left and many on the Right had such militias, the one Orwell joined being Trotskyite.
In a chaotic situation and with no traditions of compromise or of a loyal opposition, every stripe of opinion armed themselves and threatened an appeal to arms if they lost at the ballot box.
The Civil War in Spain was only three years long but it was a horrific blood bath with different factions on both sides using the larger conflict to settle old scores over local, lingusitic, class and religious differences as well as politics.
Spain has (had) a long tradition of reform and reaction, "liberals" attempting to change things rapidly from above when given the opportunity and violent reaction and repression when the wheel would turn through a change of regime or ruler, foreign war or outside influences meddling in internal Spanish politics for their own reasons of state.
Franco was definitely not the worst of the leaders on the Right, he wasn't particularly bloody minded or ideological. He was a pragmatic traditionalist that kept Spain out of WW2, refusing to allow Hitler to drag Spain into it but allowing his own die hard fascists and anti-communists to serve as volunteers in the "Blue Division" under German command, thereby removing one potentially disruptive element from the domestic Spanish political landscape and placating the naziis at the same time.
He wasn't touchy feely, the regime had a hard hand with leftist elements, there were prison cells and firing squads for the irreconcilables of the Left and an active secret police to keep the lid on. On the other hand the economy recovered, there was enough to eat, Spain stayed out of other people's wars and the Left and Right weren't butchering one another's adherents as an intramural pastime. During the Civil War there were numberless incidents of one side or the other taking a town and shooting all the teachers and unionists then the other side retaking said town and pushing all the priests and nuns off a cliff.
Spain could have done much worse, at least Franco was competent. I think his career illustrates Jeanne Kirkpatrick's argument that reform is much more likely under authoritarian regimes than under totalitarian ones.


23 posted on 07/04/2006 10:19:11 AM PDT by skepsel
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To: Lukasz
"Let's not forget that Nazism in Germany and fascism in Italy were also spiced up by socialist and atheist taste," Mr Giertych added.

We can't disagree with that phrase.
24 posted on 07/04/2006 10:36:48 AM PDT by Wiz
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To: xander
Guernica

What's the real story? I thought I read something that while the painting was intended to show the horrors
of Nazis, et al, the subject itself was the damage done by the retreating "republicans".

Or is my memory a victim of attempted historical revisionism?

25 posted on 07/04/2006 11:30:02 AM PDT by Calvin Locke
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To: Lukasz

I don't have much knowledge about this issue either, however I think that there were no real "good guys" during the Spanish civil war. Probably Franco was better than commies but praising him Giertych only provokes anti-Polish Euro idiots. On the other hand they probably don't see anything wrong in praising commies and I wouldn't be surprised If they actually did that themselves.


26 posted on 07/04/2006 11:33:48 AM PDT by Grzegorz 246
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To: Grzegorz 246

Members of actual communist parties can sit in the pariliament, but to merely mention Franco is a problem?


27 posted on 07/04/2006 11:39:09 AM PDT by sobieski
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To: sobieski
I meant commies - the other, anti-Franco side during the Spanish civil war.
28 posted on 07/04/2006 11:47:53 AM PDT by Grzegorz 246
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To: Grzegorz 246

Sorry; my point is that the EuroMPs will happily sit with the SLD and other European communist parties, but become outraged when a Polish MP just mentions Franco.


29 posted on 07/04/2006 11:51:16 AM PDT by sobieski
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To: Lukasz

I lump Franco in with Pinochet. Both are not men for all seasons, but their rule was important to stem the rise of Communism. That having been said, their time has passed.


30 posted on 07/04/2006 12:15:17 PM PDT by dfwgator (Florida Gators - 2006 NCAA Men's Basketball Champions)
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To: sobieski
Polish MEPs from SLD (4 or 5) are members of a Socialist Group in the European Parliament. A leader of that group is Martin Schultz mentioned in the article.
31 posted on 07/04/2006 12:19:14 PM PDT by Grzegorz 246
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To: GSlob
I agree. Franco was one of the most successful 20th century politicians. He kept his country out of WWII, died in his bed, and picked his successor, the present King of Spain Juan Carlos.

Martin Schultz is a maniacal socialist. Berlusconi compared Schultz (to his face) to a concentration camp guard.

32 posted on 07/04/2006 12:23:11 PM PDT by Malesherbes
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To: Grzegorz 246

They can call themselves what they want, but they are the inheritors of the PUWP. Wasn't the ex SLD President a member of the Martial Law Cabinet?


33 posted on 07/04/2006 1:08:48 PM PDT by sobieski
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To: Lukasz
.. Franco meets with President Dwight D. Eisenhower
34 posted on 07/04/2006 3:48:25 PM PDT by Donald Rumsfeld Fan ("Fake but Accurate": NY Times)
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To: sobieski
Well, while the Germans were persecuting and killing the Jews, Franco was protecting them from the Germans.

Francisco Franco was helpful to Jews fleeing the Nazis during WW2. They needed to have money but he was helpful. Rumors abound he had some Jewish heritage

35 posted on 07/04/2006 3:54:20 PM PDT by dennisw (Confucius say man who go through turnstile sideways going to Bangkok.)
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To: Donald Rumsfeld Fan

Great photo! Those were the days


36 posted on 07/04/2006 3:54:55 PM PDT by dennisw (Confucius say man who go through turnstile sideways going to Bangkok.)
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To: Grzegorz 246

I believe they are not just anti-Polish, so anyway they would find excuse to attack us. If Franco wasn’t a fascist as they claim that he was, then I see nothing wrong to point them out this fact. Praising Franco, it is maybe too much but to CONDEMN Spanish leftist government from these years would be just perfect.


37 posted on 07/05/2006 7:33:39 AM PDT by Lukasz
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To: dennisw

"Rumors abound he had some Jewish heritage".

It's not rumors but facts. General Franco was descendants of Medieval Spanish Jews who under the threat of persecution and death converted to Christianity.

Overall, General Franco did a tremendous job saving thousands of French Jews from deportation to Auschwicz. He also did not allow Hitler to take over Gibraltar straights and this was a tremendous help to allies in destroying Hitler.

In fact, Franco masterfully used Hitler help to defeat in 1930's Spanish Civil War pro-Soviet Spanish "Republicans", but during WWII, he refused to help Hitler when it mattered the most to Hitler. Here is a the website on a book "Hitler Stopped by Franco".

http://hitlerstoppedbyfranco.com/home.htm


38 posted on 07/05/2006 7:42:53 AM PDT by sergey1973
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To: Lukasz
Franco was a hero of Western Civilization. Communists and Anarchists were ravaging the country, raping nuns, killing politicians and priests in cold blooded murder. Franco tried to stay out of it but when the commies executed a high ranking politician (his position was analagous to Frist's position IIRC) in the middle of the night he reluctantly agreed to join other members of the military in defending their country from a communist takeover. Ironically, the General who was supposed to be in charge of the resistance was killed in a plane crash and the command went to Franco.

Franco threw the commies out block by bloody block. Eventually, there was a peaceful transition to a democracy.

Churcill famously said that if he had to choose sides, he would have fought with Franco. Ike was also a big fan.

Franco gets a bad rap because he had to make a deal with the devil (Hitler) to fight the devil (Stalin) who was pillaging his country. He later told Hitler to pound sand.

The leftists hate him with a vengeance which should tell you all that you need to know.

39 posted on 07/05/2006 7:58:29 AM PDT by MattinNJ (The paleocon's paleocon.)
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To: Lukasz
"If Franco wasn’t a fascist as they claim that he was"

I think he was - according to a very wide definition of fascism. Nothing like Adolf although he got aid from Adolfites during the civil war, including a small German contingent - Condor Legion. Both sides committed many war crimes and Franco was a dictator, so I rather don't agree that Europe now needs people like him, however with this...

-"We observe deep sorrow some attempts for a historical revisionism which tends to criticise all that is traditional and catholic while portray in a positive light all that is lay and socialist."
"Let's not forget that Nazism in Germany and fascism in Italy were also spiced up by socialist and atheist taste"Mr Giertych added.

... I agree 100%.
40 posted on 07/05/2006 8:03:12 AM PDT by Grzegorz 246
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