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4th of July at the LA Times: Founding Fathers "A Bunch of Racist, Slave-Owning White Men"
NewsBusters.org ^ | 4 July 2006 | Dave Pierre

Posted on 07/04/2006 7:03:39 PM PDT by infoguy

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1 posted on 07/04/2006 7:03:47 PM PDT by infoguy
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To: infoguy
NOW can we question their patriotism?
2 posted on 07/04/2006 7:07:17 PM PDT by inkling
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To: infoguy


Hey, Mark and Joel - who won the last presidential elections with MORE VOTES THAN ANY US CANIDATE IN HISTORY?

hahahahaha.


3 posted on 07/04/2006 7:07:19 PM PDT by Fido969 ("being an arrogant, self-important jerk is a prerequisite for becoming a university administrator.")
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To: infoguy

This editorial has a bright side: it will drive down the Times circulation even more!


4 posted on 07/04/2006 7:09:19 PM PDT by Rummyfan
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To: infoguy

Our flag flies year round.


5 posted on 07/04/2006 7:09:43 PM PDT by sageb1 (This is the Final Crusade. There are only 2 sides. Pick one.)
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To: infoguy

LOL @ Dave. He actually thinks Joel Stein's wife took his last name! hahahahahaha!

Though, maybe Stein was her last name and he took hers...


6 posted on 07/04/2006 7:09:48 PM PDT by perfect_rovian_storm
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To: infoguy
Founding Fathers "A Bunch of Racist, Slave-Owning White Men"

Quite unlike those noble Aztecs.

7 posted on 07/04/2006 7:09:48 PM PDT by martin_fierro (<-- Once shouted "Migra!" in a crowded taqueria)
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To: infoguy
Unbelievable. It is because of our founding fathers that he can write this dribble. The hypocrisy of liberals never ceases to amaze me.
8 posted on 07/04/2006 7:09:55 PM PDT by Uncle Hal
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To: inkling
NOW can we question their patriotism?

It's the democracy thing they can't stand. They liked it better when we were led by an inbred bunch of arrogant elites.

Now THAT kind of government they could get behind!

9 posted on 07/04/2006 7:10:50 PM PDT by Fido969 ("being an arrogant, self-important jerk is a prerequisite for becoming a university administrator.")
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To: infoguy
the reason I didn't want to put a flag outside wasn't because I disapprove of our international policies. It was because I didn't want to associate myself with the other people who put them up, and with their unquestioning, tribal, us-versus-them, arrogant mentality.

But you WILL associate yourself with other liberals, with their unquestioning, tribal, cultish, 'us-vs-them', arrogant liberal mentality ... yes ?

10 posted on 07/04/2006 7:12:44 PM PDT by Mr_Moonlight
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To: perfect_rovian_storm; infoguy; All

Of course, I can see why Dave might have been flustered. I mean, the very idea that Joel has a wife in the first place brings so many questions to mind. Number one being, is she pre-op or post-op? :P


11 posted on 07/04/2006 7:13:21 PM PDT by perfect_rovian_storm
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To: inkling
NOW can we question their patriotism?

Why? In their minds urinating on the flag is patriotic. You can never criticize the left. They will just redefine the words to mean what they want.

12 posted on 07/04/2006 7:13:42 PM PDT by Always Right
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To: inkling

It's a convenient way to side-step the truth - the framers were radicals, but they weren't proletariat style revolutionaries. They were people who had *everything* to lose and quite a few of the signers did lose everything. It was unanimous vote. This doesn't fit in with revisionists view. And that's what happens as memories fade, - history must conform to the vision of those writing about it, not the folks who were there.


13 posted on 07/04/2006 7:14:22 PM PDT by Freedom4US
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To: infoguy

Has anyone gotten this to the Hugh Hewitt show or Radioblogger.com?


14 posted on 07/04/2006 7:15:52 PM PDT by BlueOneGolf (I Ride and I Vote. Join me in the American Motorcyclist Association today)
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To: infoguy

Bleah! Such drivel, and on the day we celebrate our nation's birth, too.

What does WWFFD mean? I don't want to give the LAT the satisfaction of a hit.


15 posted on 07/04/2006 7:16:04 PM PDT by Theresawithanh (Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I stuck around...)
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To: infoguy
The Left despises the United States and everything it stands for. The "Mainstream Newsmedia" is its Propaganda Machine. The Democrat Party is its Political Machine.

Considering the enormity of their hatred, it is not surprising that they eagerly serve as a fifth column for America's enemies abroad.

It is of no surprise that the Left has allied itself with and willingly serves the very enemies that attacked the U.S.A. on September 11, 2001, in a replay of the attack on Pearl Harbor by the Japanese Empire.

Considering all this, the more the American people know about the Left and the more America's domestic enemies of the Left get their message out, the better.

We must make sure that the Left gets plenty of exposure. Their message speaks for itself.

16 posted on 07/04/2006 7:19:31 PM PDT by Savage Beast (9/11 was never repeated--thanks to President George Bush and his supurb leadership.)
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To: Theresawithanh

What Would the Founding Fathers Do?

The kind of question only eeeeevil conservative supreme court justices might ask themselves...the 'enlightened' ones ask questions like:

WDIWDAHDIMCST

Which stands for What Do I Want to Do And How Do I Make the Constitution Say That.

:D


17 posted on 07/04/2006 7:19:38 PM PDT by perfect_rovian_storm
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To: Theresawithanh
What does WWFFD mean? I don't want to give the LAT the satisfaction of a hit.

My guess is What Would Founding Fathers Do?...But I'm not going to give them a hit either.

18 posted on 07/04/2006 7:19:55 PM PDT by Junior_G
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To: Mr_Moonlight
"But you WILL associate yourself with other liberals, with their unquestioning, tribal, cultish, 'us-vs-them', arrogant liberal mentality ... yes ?"

Ward Churchill is Joel's kinda guy.

19 posted on 07/04/2006 7:20:25 PM PDT by JustaDumbBlonde
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To: infoguy

They are hastening their own demise. Not fast enough, for my tastes, but they're still working on it!


20 posted on 07/04/2006 7:21:09 PM PDT by gridlock (The 'Pubbies will pick up two (2) seats in the Senate and four (4) seats in the House in 2006)
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To: Junior_G; perfect_rovian_storm

Thanks, guys! Duh, should've figured that one out for myself.

WDIWDAHDIMCST! LOL!


21 posted on 07/04/2006 7:22:04 PM PDT by Theresawithanh (Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I stuck around...)
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To: infoguy

The LATimes and its master, the NYSlimes, are worth less than the stuff you scrape off your shoes after a walk through a pasture. These "writers" prove that. I fly my flag every day and, yes, I think I'm much happier than these whiney weenies who run screaming like little girls when they see our flag. Idiots. Rant over, now.


22 posted on 07/04/2006 7:22:20 PM PDT by hsalaw
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To: infoguy

Whoa. Stein needs to do a little research on the concept of arrogance.


23 posted on 07/04/2006 7:25:33 PM PDT by pollyannaish
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To: infoguy; Howlin; onyx; Clemenza; Petronski; GummyIII; SevenofNine; martin_fierro; veronica; ...

Neo-Marxist treason ping. Make sure you check out the main article at the Times.


24 posted on 07/04/2006 7:27:26 PM PDT by EveningStar
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To: hsalaw

mega-dittoes from a 24/7/52 flag flyer!


25 posted on 07/04/2006 7:34:41 PM PDT by LiteKeeper (Beware the secularization of America; the Islamization of Eurabia)
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To: infoguy

There are more blacks in bondage under the modern democrat party than ever existed in early US history.


26 posted on 07/04/2006 7:35:24 PM PDT by lawdude (Murtha: SPEAK LIES TO THE WEAK!)
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To: infoguy
"I am sick and tired of the founding fathers and all their intents."


"Life of a Founding Father is always intents!"

27 posted on 07/04/2006 7:37:06 PM PDT by mrsmith
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To: infoguy
"So let us stop worshiping the founding fathers and allow our minds to progress and try to build a nation of great new ideas."

When they call for "new ideas," it is always a rehash of Marx and Hegel. They look to some failed totalitarian state and say, "let's try a variation of that." The sad thing is that they really think they are being creative and original.

28 posted on 07/04/2006 7:37:12 PM PDT by Wilhelm Tell (True or False? This is not a tag line.)
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To: infoguy

"I am sick and tired of the founding fathers and all their intents." Yet in his closing paragraph, he appeals, "So let us stop worshiping the founding fathers and allow our minds to progress and try to build a nation of great new ideas."

Oh yeh...great liberal progressive ideas as
Abortion, Gay Marriages, Flag burnings, Censuring religious expression, Legalize marijuana, anti-military, tax and spend....etc...etc...

Without the founding fathers the LA or NY Times would not exist you lamebrain editor.


29 posted on 07/04/2006 7:38:42 PM PDT by tflabo (Take authority that's ours)
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To: infoguy
Liberals, no matter what they call themselves or where they appear or post messages, all have some things in common.

They dislike or even hate the founders, the founding colonies and anything else that represents a morality formed from principles found within scripture.

Liberals dislike the Constitution for the same reason, it represents law and culture that liberals are opposed to. They love activist judges who spend their life looking for ways to destroy the Constitution so they can then replace it with their own. For them, hating the founders is natural, easy, even chic.

30 posted on 07/04/2006 7:46:54 PM PDT by bwc (Big Centralized Government is turning us into just another clone of the European States)
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To: infoguy
The founding fathers were all men of the establishment who wanted what Robespierre sneeringly called, when his own French Revolution was accused of excess, "a revolution without a revolution." John Steinbeck noted that the American Revolution was different from that of France's or Russia's because the so-caled revolutionaries'did not want a new form of government; they only wanted the same kind, run by themselves."

Is Kurlansky saying that he would have preferred a revolution of the sort led by Robespierre or the Russian revolutionaries?

31 posted on 07/04/2006 7:50:08 PM PDT by Fiji Hill
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To: Fido969

Maybe they should alll move to Britian and France?


32 posted on 07/04/2006 7:54:38 PM PDT by bordergal (John)
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To: infoguy
Note to Mark Kurlansky, I intend to email my thoughts spoken below him as well.

LEAVE! PLEASE LEAVE OUR COUNTY ASAP! Because you just don't get it, and obviously never will.

I had the privilege of spending the day with my two children, their spouses, and my precious little Granddaugher, as well as other family and friends, watching Red, White, and Boom at Columbus, Ohio yesterday.

As I watched the crowd gathering down below from my daughter and son-in-law's condo window, the flags, the kids playing, the music..... my heart was full. It was as if my life flashed before me, and remembered as a child growing up in the country, how special it was to be free and happy, and safe..watching the fireworks on Independence Day in our small town.

We all knew back then, and know now, that this freedom did not come without a price. It was because of all who fought for our great country, some of them from my own family.

Fast forward many years later, looking down from that window, I was reminded how their sacrifices was the reason I was able to see the beautiful scene below.

When the fireworks started and we went down to the grass to watch them, my granddaughter, was not scared of the sights or sounds. Her eyes were wide open in awe. Her little arms reached up, pointing to the beautiful hues in the sky. It was as if she knew what it was all about.

Funny that a 9 month old baby gets it, yet a very "educated" journalist does not.

33 posted on 07/04/2006 7:54:51 PM PDT by LisaMalia (Every day offers many gifts from God..untie the ribbons!)
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To: Fiji Hill
John Steinbeck noted that the American Revolution was different from that of France's or Russia's because the so-caled revolutionaries'did not want a new form of government; they only wanted the same kind, run by themselves."

If true, that desire was certainly not borne out in facts: no monarch, a bicameral legislature with two active chambers, a judiciary, and many powers ceded to the state level. How does that represent the British Parliamentary system?

34 posted on 07/04/2006 7:57:57 PM PDT by Rummyfan
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To: infoguy
>>We ought to do something. Instead, we keep worrying about the vision of a bunch of sexist, slave-owning 18th century white men in wigs and breeches<<


So basically this is an argument against considering the framer's intent when considering constitutional cases.

I wonder whose intent they would like substituted? /rhetorical
35 posted on 07/04/2006 7:58:30 PM PDT by gondramB (Unity of freedom has never relied upon uniformity of opinion.)
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To: infoguy
And he missses the whole point. They may have been racist slaveholding, sexists

but they still devised the best system of government ever established by man!

36 posted on 07/04/2006 8:00:57 PM PDT by Rummyfan
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To: infoguy
I use the LA Pravda for the lining for the bird cages. That it is the only thing the newspaper is good for.
37 posted on 07/04/2006 8:01:53 PM PDT by garbageseeker (It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fighHert in the dog.”Samuel Clemmens)
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To: infoguy

My daughter's history teacher said much the same thing. Made the class write an essay on how America was 'founded on inequality'.


38 posted on 07/04/2006 8:04:13 PM PDT by Lorianne
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To: infoguy
We can attack this columnist but the issue remains until confronted fully, were the Founders racist and sexist?
39 posted on 07/04/2006 8:09:06 PM PDT by whatisthetruth
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To: infoguy; All
I read this article by Joel Stein that was linked.

In it, he states: "...Though I love being American, I don't want to proclaim it as the sole basis of my identity...

Now, I don't know Joel Stein. But after reading his editorial, I understood he really doesn't get it.

Joel Stein thinks that patriotism is the flag. And he thinks that people who respect that flag and what it stands for are ignorant rubes.

Joel Stein makes the mistake of confusing Patriotism and Jingoism. Jingoism is defined as: Extreme nationalism, xenophobia, flag-waving; hawkishness, militarism, belligerence, bellicosity.

Joel Stein displays the worst kind of ignorance, that of discounting the benefits bestowed by something he disdains.

I see Patriotism as giving credit to the environment that has made possible the achievements we gain in life. God is foremost, but our country has a great deal to do with it as well. There are many pious people in third world countries, so living in the USA has enabled many of us to live more comfortable, fulfilling lives that might otherwise be possible. Patriotism is an acknowlegement of that fact. Joel Stein does not realize that his right and capability to write whatever he wants, at the level of proficiency he may or may not have attained did not happen simply because he worked hard.

He is where he is because he stands on the shoulders of others who made it possible for him. People bled and died so that men like him could peddle their tripe. They paved the way for him. Patriotism is understanding and acknowledging that.

And he simply does not get it.

40 posted on 07/04/2006 8:10:17 PM PDT by rlmorel (John Murtha: Out of touch, Out of His Mind. Lets make him Out of Congress! DIANA IREY FOR CONGRESS!)
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To: whatisthetruth

Yes. They were flawed. But they set up a good system in spite of themselves. John Dos Passos once said something to the effect that America should be admired for what it *strives* to be.


41 posted on 07/04/2006 8:12:59 PM PDT by EveningStar
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To: infoguy
Those who favored independence but were not in favor of war are not called founding fathers

Nope, they were the same talkers we see today. All talk, no action.

42 posted on 07/04/2006 8:30:06 PM PDT by vikzilla
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To: whatisthetruth; EveningStar
>> We can attack this columnist but the issue remains until confronted fully, were the Founders racist and sexist?

NOT THE POINT. Of course they, and all other humans, were "flawed". They were of their own times.

Viewing their beliefs and actions from 230 years later is bound to generate claims of imperfection according to that newer context. So what?

Tell ya what. Are you (whatisthetruth) willing to be judged for your current beliefs and actions, according to a set of societal, cultural, and political rules that will exist 230 years from now? That you and I can't even imagine today?? I guarantee you that people in that future will view you -- from their much more enlightened perspective -- as:

... and probably your lifetime achievements won't come close to the lasting effects of those of the American Founders, so you won't have that sort of legacy to lean back on either.

So the answer to your question is: "They were what they were, and if you read their own writings, you'll see that they were, in many cases, ahead of their time in becoming more enlightened as well." Judging them by today's PC standards is pointless and only intends to undercut what they did that makes it possible for you to ask that question in an online political forum.

Happy Independence Day!

43 posted on 07/04/2006 8:42:04 PM PDT by dayglored (Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government!)
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To: whatisthetruth; EveningStar; infoguy
BTW, whatisthetruth, the same question ("Are you willing to be judged ...?") applies to me too. I wasn't picking on you as an individual, but maybe that wasn't clear. I would be just as subject to criticism from 230 years in the future.

Cheers!

44 posted on 07/04/2006 8:47:53 PM PDT by dayglored (Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government!)
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To: infoguy

The Pravda on the Pacific staff, have no idea how degenrate they have become. Each editorial like this just makes them look just that much more idiotic.


45 posted on 07/04/2006 8:55:56 PM PDT by DoughtyOne (Al Qaeda / Taliban operatives: Read the NY Times, for daily up to the minute security threat tips.)
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To: infoguy

I hope their circulation keeps dropping.


46 posted on 07/04/2006 9:03:33 PM PDT by Dr. Scarpetta
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To: infoguy
NYT, JULY 4: "FORMER G.I. HELD IN FOUR SLAYINGS AND RAPE IN IRAQ" (3 column above the fold picture of perp)


47 posted on 07/04/2006 9:10:47 PM PDT by UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide (Give Them Liberty Or Give Them Death! - IT'S ISLAM, STUPID! - Islam Delenda Est! - Rumble thee forth)
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To: inkling

Actually when patriots start acting like the terrorists, which I predict will happen. Their right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness may be questioned. The sooner the better.


48 posted on 07/04/2006 9:39:13 PM PDT by 2ndClassCitizen
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To: martin_fierro

Great post! The enemy within is out of touch with reality.


49 posted on 07/04/2006 9:50:37 PM PDT by Free ThinkerNY ((((Live Free or Die))))
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To: infoguy
Freaks. I'm not sorry that I left that stinking town, and it's sad excuse for a daily paper, behind.
50 posted on 07/04/2006 9:51:25 PM PDT by AnnaZ (Have a blessed and happy Independence Day!)
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