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Ken Lay's Final Loophole
Nize Notes ^

Posted on 07/06/2006 7:39:44 AM PDT by toaster

...because Ken Lay's case may still have been appealed, Lay's death expunges the conviction from his record.

This means that any orders to vacate his wealth are annulled, and his family gets to keep millions of dollars that they likely would have lost had he gone to jail.

(Excerpt) Read more at nizenotes.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Crime/Corruption; Extended News; Government; News/Current Events; US: Texas
KEYWORDS: enron; enronlist; kenlay
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1 posted on 07/06/2006 7:39:44 AM PDT by toaster
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To: toaster

He gets to stiff his lawyers too.


2 posted on 07/06/2006 7:41:29 AM PDT by Paleo Conservative
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To: toaster

are they sure this was 'natural causes' ?


3 posted on 07/06/2006 7:42:31 AM PDT by Mr. K (Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants don't help...)
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To: toaster

I just about busted a gut, laughing at the libs on the local talk radio, bitching about Lay's death and how it just wasn't fair!!


4 posted on 07/06/2006 7:42:36 AM PDT by newcthem (No "Rusty" Feingold does not represent me.......he does offend me, however.)
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To: toaster

Laughing from the grave, maybe.


5 posted on 07/06/2006 7:42:56 AM PDT by tbird5
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To: toaster

This is probably going to upset people more than anything. He had it all protected through Limited Partnerships, etc. and even the government would have been unable to seize all the assets. He was very shrewd with his agressive asset management program.


6 posted on 07/06/2006 7:43:29 AM PDT by TommyDale (Stop the Nifongery!)
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To: Mr. K

Here, Ken, drink your iced tea..it's nice and sweet, just the way you like it...


7 posted on 07/06/2006 7:43:39 AM PDT by steve8714
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To: Mr. K

His autopsy was almost finished, last I heard. I'm betting someone will contest it, and want another medical team to confirm it.


8 posted on 07/06/2006 7:44:27 AM PDT by butternut_squash_bisque (The recipe's at my FR HomePage. Try it!)
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To: toaster
This means that any orders to vacate his wealth are annulled, and his family gets to keep millions of dollars

I'm not a lawyer, but I highly doubt this assumption...

9 posted on 07/06/2006 7:44:43 AM PDT by ErnBatavia (Meep Meep)
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To: toaster
This means that any orders to vacate his wealth are annulled, and his family gets to keep millions of dollars that they likely would have lost had he gone to jail.

Was he related to the Clintons?

10 posted on 07/06/2006 7:44:44 AM PDT by N. Theknow ((Kennedys - Can't drive, can't fly, can't ski, can't skipper a boat - But they know what's best.))
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To: toaster
Ken Lay's heirs can't be punished for his crimes. A law of attainder is unconstitutional. He went out at the right time.

(The Palestinian terrorist regime is the crisis and Israel's fist is the answer.)

11 posted on 07/06/2006 7:46:09 AM PDT by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives On In My Heart Forever)
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To: toaster
I heard something similar regarding a NY State case...the guy was convicted of murder but died shortly after the verdict was handed down so his record was wiped clean.

I would think,however,that his estate could be sued by various individuals/groups/entities for civil fraud,etc.

12 posted on 07/06/2006 7:46:09 AM PDT by Gay State Conservative
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To: TommyDale

"He was very shrewd with his agressive asset management program."

And yet, he claimed no knowledge of what was going on with Enron's books. Hmmmmm.


13 posted on 07/06/2006 7:48:01 AM PDT by brownsfan (It's not a war on terror... it's a war with islam.)
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To: newcthem
I just about busted a gut, laughing at the libs on the local talk radio, bitching about Lay's death and how it just wasn't fair!!

It's amazing to contrast it with the way they reacted to Zarqawi's death. The local rag here is all "Ken Lay's death is disappointing to those who wanted to see him spend years in jail". Like Ken Lay is sitting around saying "I'll show the bastards. I'll have a massive heart attack!"
14 posted on 07/06/2006 7:48:02 AM PDT by Question Liberal Authority (Now that Zarqawi is dead, who will the Democrats nominate in 2008?)
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To: Mr. K

It's done; 3rd ppg down...

http://www.cnn.com/2006/BUSINESS/07/05/enron.lay/index.html


15 posted on 07/06/2006 7:48:13 AM PDT by butternut_squash_bisque (The recipe's at my FR HomePage. Try it!)
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To: toaster
Who is Raymond Nize and why should we give credence to what he says about this?
16 posted on 07/06/2006 7:48:15 AM PDT by Protagoras (("Minimum-wage laws are one of the most powerful tools in the arsenal of racists." - Walter Williams)
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To: Gay State Conservative
They could file a civil lawsuit - assuming they know where all the assets are. As a practical matter, its difficult to sue a man's heirs. Whatever his misdeeds, they don't deserve to get punished for something they didn't do.

(The Palestinian terrorist regime is the crisis and Israel's fist is the answer.)

17 posted on 07/06/2006 7:48:15 AM PDT by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives On In My Heart Forever)
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To: toaster
>Lay's death expunges the conviction from his record. This means that any orders to vacate his wealth are annulled, and his family gets to keep millions

Let's get some lawyer
to go to Hell and bring back
Lay to do his time!

--------------------------------------

Death of Eurydice

The most famous story in which he figures is that of his wife Eurydice. Eurydice is sometimes known as Agriope. While fleeing from Aristaeus, she was bitten by a serpent which brought her to her death. Distraught, Orpheus played such sad songs and sang so mournfully that all the nymphs and gods wept and gave him advice. Orpheus went down to the lower world and by his music softened the hearts of Hades and Persephone (the only person to ever do so), who agreed to allow Eurydice to return with him to earth. But the condition was attached that he should walk in front of her and not look back until he had reached the upper world. In his anxiety he broke his promise, and Eurydice vanished again from his sight.

18 posted on 07/06/2006 7:48:40 AM PDT by theFIRMbss
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To: toaster

But I assume aggrieved individuals will still sue his estate.


19 posted on 07/06/2006 7:49:27 AM PDT by dinoparty
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To: ErnBatavia

I'm not a lawyer, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.


20 posted on 07/06/2006 7:49:34 AM PDT by Protagoras (("Minimum-wage laws are one of the most powerful tools in the arsenal of racists." - Walter Williams)
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To: ErnBatavia
Doubt it all you want. Its over, and Lay's money cant be touched. He doesn't even get the conviction.
21 posted on 07/06/2006 7:52:59 AM PDT by Pukin Dog (Dont be a Conservopussy! Defend Ann Coulter, you weenies!)
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To: Protagoras

I don't know who raymond Nize is but he links to the Law Professor's Blog and it seems they know a thing or two about law. http://lawprofessors.typepad.com/whitecollarcrime_blog/2006/07/ken_lay_dies_of.html


22 posted on 07/06/2006 7:53:58 AM PDT by toaster
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To: toaster

It was the only path left open.


23 posted on 07/06/2006 7:54:40 AM PDT by lilylangtree
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To: toaster
This means that any orders to vacate his wealth are annulled, and his family gets to keep millions of dollars that they likely would have lost had he gone to jail.

Several civil suits are pending ... I doubt much of value will be left to the Ken Lay estate after all the litigation is over. The lawyer fees alone will be enormous.

24 posted on 07/06/2006 7:55:29 AM PDT by BluH2o
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To: toaster
I can just imagine Jeff Skilling's wife asking him if he would like another helping of bacon with his cigarette?
25 posted on 07/06/2006 7:55:31 AM PDT by Pukin Dog (Dont be a Conservopussy! Defend Ann Coulter, you weenies!)
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To: Protagoras

"I'm not a lawyer, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night".

Clever!


26 posted on 07/06/2006 7:56:01 AM PDT by tbird5
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To: toaster
I have been appalled by some of the comments that I have heard concerning Ken Lay's untimely death. Some are so angry that he died of natural causes and not as a very old man in prison. Others are glad that he died saying that he got what he deserved - death. Although he did some very bad things, none of them are punishable by death.

I always try to remember that in all things, God is in control. It is not up to us to judge Ken Lay because that is His job. IMO, the stress and strain of what he and his family have been through (albeit self-inflicted) in the last few years would be enough to bring on a heart attack - especially if he had cardiovascular disease to begin with.
27 posted on 07/06/2006 7:56:15 AM PDT by srmorton
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To: BluH2o
Hard to sue a dead guy's family.
28 posted on 07/06/2006 7:56:19 AM PDT by Pukin Dog (Dont be a Conservopussy! Defend Ann Coulter, you weenies!)
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To: goldstategop
They could file a civil lawsuit - assuming they know where all the assets are. As a practical matter, its difficult to sue a man's heirs. Whatever his misdeeds, they don't deserve to get punished for something they didn't do.

It's not the *heirs* that would be sued in civil court,it's the *estate*.Unless I'm mistaken,the probate laws of every state in the union require the executor of an estate to settle all debts incurred by the deceased during his/her lifetime before distributing proceeds to any heir.

Also,was his wife also convicted of one or more crimes in this matter? If so...and if any substantial portion of his estate was given to the wife in a will,then one would think that *she*,too,could be pursued in civil court.

I'm certainly no lawyer,so I'm probably in way over my head here.

29 posted on 07/06/2006 7:57:21 AM PDT by Gay State Conservative
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To: toaster
This means that any orders to vacate his wealth are annulled, and his family gets to keep millions of dollars that they likely would have lost had he gone to jail.

Oh no. Can't the law be changed somehow?

30 posted on 07/06/2006 7:58:20 AM PDT by Aquinasfan (When you find "Sola Scriptura" in the Bible, let me know)
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To: Pukin Dog
Doubt it all you want. Its over, and Lay's money cant be touched

Yes I will...I'm sure there are tons of legal arguments that it is NOT Lay's money, and by extension therefore his heirs won't get to keep it.

Maybe I'm just a common sense kinda guy. I'd make a lousy attorney.

31 posted on 07/06/2006 7:58:29 AM PDT by ErnBatavia (Meep Meep)
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To: Pukin Dog
Hard to sue a dead guy's family.

You go after the estate ... not specifically the family. Ken Lay stiffed a hell of a lot of people, they want retribution.

32 posted on 07/06/2006 8:02:07 AM PDT by BluH2o
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To: goldstategop
Whatever his misdeeds, they don't deserve to get punished for something they didn't do.

Yes, but it's stolen money. Don't the victim's rights trump those of the family, considered strictly as a matter of justice?

33 posted on 07/06/2006 8:02:18 AM PDT by Aquinasfan (When you find "Sola Scriptura" in the Bible, let me know)
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To: ErnBatavia
The heirs didn't do anything. They wont be held accountable for Lay's misdeeds. No doubt any arguments to the contrary were anticipated and dealt with through his financial arrangements. It will be a dry hole for civil suits.
34 posted on 07/06/2006 8:04:12 AM PDT by Pukin Dog (Dont be a Conservopussy! Defend Ann Coulter, you weenies!)
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To: BluH2o
Its not Lay's Estate anymore. Death is the ultimate money launderer. Its over.
35 posted on 07/06/2006 8:05:11 AM PDT by Pukin Dog (Dont be a Conservopussy! Defend Ann Coulter, you weenies!)
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To: Aquinasfan
Of course they do... if any surviving assets are in Ken Lay's name. Its now a civil proceeding since his death wiped out his conviction and the underlying restitution order.

(The Palestinian terrorist regime is the crisis and Israel's fist is the answer.)

36 posted on 07/06/2006 8:05:58 AM PDT by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives On In My Heart Forever)
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To: ErnBatavia
You are probably correct in that the legal challenges will continue for some time.

Lay death makes money claim moot: lawyers

By Matt Daily Wed Jul 5, 8:17 PM ET

HOUSTON (Reuters) - Ken Lay's sudden death on Wednesday will scuttle U.S. prosecutors bid to seize $43.5 million they charged the former chief executive earned through illegal acts at Enron Corp., legal experts said.

"Because of what's happened to Ken Lay, everything has been extinguished," said Joel Androphy, a partner at law firm Berg & Androphy who has closely followed the case.

However, claims filed by shareholders against Lay and other senior Enron executives in a civil case can proceed, the lawyers said. [bold my emphasis]

Lay, 64, died of coronary artery disease early on Wednesday in Colorado, just six weeks after a jury convicted him and former chief executive officer Jeffrey Skilling of conspiracy and fraud in the collapse of Enron into bankruptcy in 2001.

The U.S. Justice Department's Enron Taskforce filed a motion on Friday asking U.S. District Court Judge Sim Lake to force Lay to pay $43.5 million and Skilling to pay $139.3 million.

Under precedents set by the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals in New Orleans, a defendant is not technically ruled guilty until the person has been sentenced and has exhausted the appeals process, lawyers said.

Since Lay died before his sentencing and appeal, the conviction does not stand, and the financial claim by the government will not proceed, they said.

"I think it's pretty clear the conviction will be abated," Michael Wynne, a former federal prosecutor now in private practice said.

Lay's lawyers were not available for comment on Wednesday.

A spokesman for the Justice Department declined to comment on the legal implications of Lay's death, but said he expected a decision would likely be announced in the coming days.

Nancy Rapoport, a professor at the University of Houston Law Center, said the courts have previously ruled that once a defendant had died, the process could not go forward because there was no further penalty the legal system could implement.

"The reason they do it this way is there's nothing really left to punish," she said.


37 posted on 07/06/2006 8:07:46 AM PDT by deport
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To: ErnBatavia

I do think it's true - if a person dies before appeals are heard and disposed of, he was never convicted. The government can't get the assets.

I would guess, though, that the individuals defrauded could go after his assets, whether he's dead or alive.

I'm betting on a class-action suit of some kind.


38 posted on 07/06/2006 8:09:48 AM PDT by cvq3842
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To: ErnBatavia
Don't doubt it. It is accurate. His indictment and conviction are vacated, as are any fines or restitution orders imposed as part of his criminal case. It is as though the criminal case never happened as far as the law is concerned.

Civil cases are another matter. What will or will not be available to satisfy a future civil judgment is a matter of Texas state law, but you should not assume that all of Lay's assets will be available to satisfy a future judgment in a civil case. Many of those assets will pass to heirs as a consequence of his death, and it is not at all certain that future creditors will be able to overturn those transfers.

39 posted on 07/06/2006 8:10:12 AM PDT by blau993
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To: toaster
No one mourns the Wicked
No one cries "They won't return!"
No one lays a lily on their grave

The good man scorns the Wicked!
Through their lives, our children learn
What we miss, when we misbehave:

And Goodness knows
The Wicked's lives are lonely
Goodness knows
The Wicked die alone
It just shows when you're Wicked
You're left only
On your own

Yes, Goodness knows
The Wicked's lives are lonely
Goodness knows
The Wicked cry alone
Nothing grows for the Wicked
They reap only
What they've sown

Wicked Soundtrack
Artist: Cristy Candler
Song: No One Mourns the Wicked

Can you tell I just saw Wicked in Chicago last weekend?

40 posted on 07/06/2006 8:11:14 AM PDT by OrangeDaisy
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To: Paleo Conservative

No, Lay's layers have a valid claim against Lay's estate, as do any of the people he supposedly defrauded (assuming they filed or will file within the statute of limitations). His widow will have to hunker down with a lawfirm and defend all the junk. His lawyers may end up with most if not all of his money. Litigation could burn it up so creditors never get a dime.


41 posted on 07/06/2006 8:11:24 AM PDT by shalom aleichem
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To: shalom aleichem

"Lawyers" not "Layers" (freudian slip)


42 posted on 07/06/2006 8:12:14 AM PDT by shalom aleichem
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To: toaster

Kenny Boy took the Cardinal Wolsey gambit.


43 posted on 07/06/2006 8:12:37 AM PDT by libstripper
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To: Pukin Dog

Not sure about that. Jeff Skilling married his executive assistant after the scandal broke.


44 posted on 07/06/2006 8:13:44 AM PDT by ladyjane
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To: blau993
Uh huh. And there's no way to determine which of the gains passed on his heirs are stolen. In the eyes of the law, his heirs get their proceeds and I doubt creditors have a leg to stand on. I'm sure Lay took great care for this kind of contingency. Its a dry hole as far as those seeking restitution are concerned.

(The Palestinian terrorist regime is the crisis and Israel's fist is the answer.)

45 posted on 07/06/2006 8:14:24 AM PDT by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives On In My Heart Forever)
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To: srmorton

If, in all things, God is in control, why did so many people have to lose their savings?


46 posted on 07/06/2006 8:15:35 AM PDT by stuartcr (Everything happens as God wants it to.....otherwise, things would be different.)
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To: shalom aleichem
That's a possible outcome. A bankrupt estate is worthless. I have a feeling the only winners will be the lawyers.

(The Palestinian terrorist regime is the crisis and Israel's fist is the answer.)

47 posted on 07/06/2006 8:16:08 AM PDT by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives On In My Heart Forever)
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To: stuartcr
Greed. Human nature - in all fairness back in the day every one thought Enron was hot property and made a killing off it. When it went under, they took a financial bath. All of which is a reminder, as is Lay's death, that there are no guarantees in life.

(The Palestinian terrorist regime is the crisis and Israel's fist is the answer.)

48 posted on 07/06/2006 8:18:06 AM PDT by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives On In My Heart Forever)
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To: theFIRMbss
You people are really something. You've been watching too much mainstream media. The trial here in Houston was a f***ing joke and the sentence would likely have been overturned on appeal. Ken Lay was not the villain the msm has portrayed him to be. Jeff Skilling is another story.

But hey maybe it's not too late. If you hurry to Aspen you might get a chance to kick his corpse or even go through his pockets and look for spare change. You make me sick.

49 posted on 07/06/2006 8:21:43 AM PDT by MAWG (In the shadows, on permanent ambush duty.)
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To: goldstategop

My personal opinion would be that his entire estate go attempt to replenish the thousands of pensions that he ruined. If a CEO is responsible to his/her shareholders then this would be just punishment.
I heard someone say yesterday, "if God build us mansions, he's putting the finishing touches on Kens studio appartment" I think it was on the Glen Beck show, but not sure.


50 posted on 07/06/2006 8:26:21 AM PDT by Cyclone59 ("Yahyoo, he's my sisters' kid. Personally, I think he's a retard.")
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