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Nation Breaking-soldier finds training the Iraqi army is an unwinnable battle [for strong stomachs]
The American Conservative ^ | 7-7-06 | Joe W. Guthrie

Posted on 07/07/2006 7:44:44 AM PDT by SJackson

I didn’t grow up with dreams of spreading democracy. I was an all-American kid from a small southern town who went to college on a baseball scholarship and joined the National Guard to earn some extra money. During graduate school, recruiters persuaded me to join the Army through ROTC so that after graduation I would enter as an officer. I bought their pitch and believed our newly elected president when he promised no more nation building. My dad told me, “It’s a great time to join the military. It has done an excellent job of repairing itself after Vietnam.”

I was commissioned as a Second Lieutenant in December 2002 and, after paratrooper and additional officer training, was transferred from the 82nd Airborne Infantry to the new Stryker Brigade units at Ft. Lewis. In October 2004, I deployed to Iraq.

I went with an open mind. By then, the mission was well underway, and we had heard the negative reports filtering back. But I believed that I could make a difference and felt honored to serve. The fact that I had received more Arabic language and culture training than any other soldier in my battalion made me feel vital to an important mission.

But I was anxious too. I had gotten married just three months before and wondered whether I would ever see my new wife again. I wondered what I would do in a firefight. My whole life I had heard that fear of the unknown is the greatest fear, and in October 2004, it was for me.

Confidence in my training and my government somewhat quelled these fears. During the flight to Iraq, I thought of my first jump in airborne school three years before. No clearer picture of the proverbial leap of faith existed in my mind—yet I knew greater challenges awaited. I also flashed back to that conversation with my dad when I joined the Guard. Having lived through the Vietnam era, he had always expressed displeasure with certain government institutions during that period. Like many of his generation, he found himself questioning authorities previously considered worthy of unflinching support. I always found these views curious because with the exception of this interlude in American history, my father always supported the government and raised me to do the same. “I don’t believe that our government will ever allow our military to become involved in a war like Vietnam again,” he told me. “The American people would not stand for it.” Those words would haunt me in the months ahead.

* * *

Within 48 hours of our boots touching Iraqi soil, my battalion was on the move to Mosul, which had historically enjoyed a reputation as a center of Mideast commerce, prized for its oilfields. But by the time we arrived, it teetered on the edge of collapse. Iraqi police had nearly all deserted their duties, and lawlessness reigned.

I was designated the Iraqi army liaison officer, an assignment I took seriously. From the outset of the war, both President Bush and my superior officers had emphasized that training the Iraqi army was key to our mission’s success.

But the longer I spent, the more I came to realize that this was not only a lie but an impossible strategy for achieving victory.

Army doctrine and training have not accounted for a unit in combat having both to fight an insurgency and train indigenous peoples to assist in the fight. I started out as a one-man operation that grew into a cell of 60 people who rotated in for a week to a couple of months at a time. That infusion of manpower would seem to bolster the notion that Iraqi training was a priority. In reality, our leadership sent soldiers with suicidal tendencies, weight problems, and disillusionment. In a year’s time, we received only one visit from the battalion commander, only one visit from our battalion’s operations officer, and only one visit from the battalion executive officer.

This isolation set us up for failure with the Iraqis. Meetings with the Iraqi colonel in our partner Iraqi army battalion were conducted by a master sergeant and me, and almost always a problem arose in these meetings beyond our authority to control. When asked to meet with our Iraqi army colonel, our battalion commander refused.

I began to wonder: if the highest-ranking officers in a battalion did not care to interact with the Iraqis, how were the generals in the Pentagon to know what was going on? How would the president know? I realized that they wouldn’t—and they didn’t care because training the Iraqis was of little real interest.

From October 2004 to September 2005, fewer than 180 fresh-from-the streets recruits were trained by our cell and incorporated into the Iraqi army battalion in Mosul, though the battalion’s personnel total was exaggerated by the Iraqis. These errors, while reported by our cell, were ignored by our superiors. Between October 2004 and April 2005, we conducted several headcounts of Iraqi army battalion personnel and never found more than 350 present at one time. But the Iraqis recorded 1,300, and the Iraqi figures were taken as accurate. When we reported this discrepancy, we were told we must factor in the number supposedly on vacation. Every month we sent accurate numbers, and in each case we were ordered to count at least 200 soldiers as being on leave. No proof that they were actually on authorized leave was ever provided except for the Iraqi army officers’ word.

During our first month in Mosul, we were unable to conduct basic training due to Ramadan, so we opted to focus our efforts on facilities upgrade. But our requests to KBR—Kellogg, Brown and Root, Halliburton’s subsidiary company—failed because the contractor would not service any facility housing Iraqis, only Americans. Air conditioning and heat did not exist. Electricity often did not flow. These amenities could have been added easily by KBR.

Our cell searched for help with money from a budget earmarked for Iraqi training but was ultimately unsuccessful. Iraqi contractors were often crooked and more familiar with the American system of payments than we were, our battalion chain of command refused to divert any American supplies or manpower to solve the problem, and giving money to Iraqis to fix their own infrastructure proved worthless because the money simply went into the hands of the highest-ranking Iraqi present.

During our struggles, our U.S. battalion enjoyed much greater success finding contractors for its own projects. Upgrades for our detainee facilities were completed in less than a month, but the contractors responsible for these projects were never allowed to help us.

* * *

In addition to manpower shortages and facility failure, training doctrine was never uniformly approved nor implemented. An example: when we arrived in Mosul, we were given a manual by our preceding unit, which falsely described the procedure for clearing—making sure ammunition was no longer in the chamber of a weapon. The procedure given to us, which had been taught to the Iraqis for months, called for an additional step that did not appear in any manual in the U.S. Army. Upon discovering this error, our cell’s master sergeant blacked out all manuals illustrating the errant function and instituted the correct teaching. However, old habits die hard. In January 2005, one of our U.S. soldiers was killed by an Iraqi attempting to clear his weapon inside a Stryker vehicle. He pulled the trigger, consistent with the mistaken teaching he received, and one of our heroes was gone forever. The Army investigators ruled that the faulty system instilled by the American unit preceding us caused the problem. However, this practiced continued. In June 2005, some of the soldiers within our cell witnessed Special Forces soldiers implementing the same procedure that cost our soldier his life. After correcting the Special Forces team, our soldiers were told to “get your nose out of SF business.”

In June 2005, Special Forces took over some of our training mission. After a quick tour, they announced that they would initiate driver’s training for our Iraqi battalion though we had completed it four months prior. Our master sergeant complained to both Special Forces and our battalion commander that this training had already been covered, and he was overruled. Our superiors were so uninterested in the training program that they would have voiced equal approval of Iraqis riding pigs.

In March 2005, we began to push our trainees out on independent missions. They planned, briefed their troops, rehearsed, and executed the missions by themselves. All of these actions were repeated in June 2005, when Special Forces took over. Similarly, beginning in January 2005, every soldier in our Iraqi army battalion had participated in basic rifle marksmanship training. In June 2005, the same training was repeated by Special Forces. There was no coherence to the program—nor discernable progress.

In April 2005, a push began across Iraq to utilize more personnel in Iraqi army training. According to the briefing I was given, a minimum of 15 soldiers made an adequate cell. Our cell already surpassed this number, but our battalion decided to upgrade it to nearly 60 soldiers to satisfy the Bush administration’s contention that large numbers of Iraqis were being trained and large numbers of U.S. soldiers were doing the training. But we needed more officers, not soldiers, so many of the newly acquired men ended up sitting around. No one bothered to ask whether a need existed. If anyone had, we would have said that the Iraqis did not have as many people present as U.S. commanders contended and that the Iraqi soldiers supposedly coming off vacation never did so simply because they did not exist. When these problems were brought to our battalion, our integrity was questioned.

Moreover, our daily presence became highly resented by the Iraqis, especially their officers. They felt that the Iraqi army needed to be the sole authority responsible for training. Their battalion commander told me that any attempt by American officers to live in his training compound would be considered spying. And that was just the start of the conflicts. Most Iraqi officers considered their knowledge of the city and insurgents far superior to American technology and training, while Americans considered the Iraqis undisciplined and lazy.

* * *

Logistical issues compounded these operational headaches. For the first five months of our tour, we received no boots or uniforms for the Iraqis despite numerous searches and deals gone awry. We were told to utilize the local economy, but the only contractor we could find disappeared after we gave him an initial payment of $20,000. (The vanishing contractor had been recommended by the Iraqi battalion commander.)

Months later, we discovered that two buildings, covered in weeds and rust and seemingly empty, were not. The Iraqis had told us that nothing was housed in these two buildings. One day we decided to open them and discovered enough equipment to outfit three battalions. Some of it read “March 2003”—the leadership of the Iraqi battalion had been hoarding this equipment for years. For all we knew they had been selling the uniforms to terrorist organizations. In addition, we also found a large cache of mines, mortar tubes, machine guns, and ammunition in an adjacent building. The resident Iraqi company commander was ostensibly fired by the Iraqi battalion commander, but we saw him return less than two weeks later. When we reported to our battalion, we were told, “Well, after all, it is their army.”

Our cell’s replacement arrived in June in combination form. The first part came from two Special Forces teams. The second was part of the MiTT program (Military Transition Team), consisting of ten soldiers who were either experienced enlisted personnel or officers—meaning they had at least six to ten years time in the Army. I went with other Iraqi Army Liaison Officers from different battalions to Taji to meet with these men and describe what they would face in Mosul. To my dismay, I quickly learned they possessed no knowledge of their final destination. They made the journey with no radio communication, some with only one pair of boots, no information on where they would go or what they would be doing when they got there. I expected to hear questions like “What sort of operational tempo do your Iraqi counterparts possess?” In contrast, I was asked, “Lieutenant, do you have e-mail capability up in Mosul? Nobody has told us anything and I really want to know how I will communicate with my family.” I later found out that they were selected mostly from desk jobs in the Recruiting Command or the Pentagon. Yet I listened with them at their initial briefs about how they were performing “a mission that was the most important key to our success in Iraq.” If this were true then why were they sending desk jockeys with little or no experience training indigenous soldiers? And why during one of their initial briefings did their leader, a full colonel, have to plead for more boots for his men?

Once these men arrived in Mosul, they were given a two-day welcome briefing. Then they were sent to remote combat outposts in the middle of the worst areas. Their only radios had been given to them by us. Running water worked on occasion. And they received no equipment to outfit their Iraqi counterparts. To this day, MiTT teams operate under the same conditions. Future help probably will not come due to our battalion replacement’s apparent apathy: they refused any data concerning our experience despite numerous attempts.

Another logistical problem arose due to the Iraqi army’s masterful deception in accounting for their equipment. For the first six months of our tour, our cell inventoried every piece of military equipment their battalion possessed. We reported in April 2005 that we had names showing which soldiers signed out AK ammunition and then returned differing ammunition. (This differing ammo was made during the time of Saddam and is readily available on the market; most of it does not work.) We also had six Iraqi witnesses working in the Iraqi arms room who observed the fraud. My superior officers weren’t interested.

In addition, every month the Iraqi army leadership and our cell agreed to a list of items mutually decided to be essential. However, the end of the month’s expenditures routinely included space heaters for the Iraqi army leadership’s quarters, satellite television for the officers only, and new furniture for the officers, to name just a few items. And trips down to the Iraqi army compound in the wee hours of the morning resulted in all kinds of discoveries. Sometimes I saw Iraqi soldiers sucking gas out of the tanks of the trucks to sell. Another time, I saw two Iraqi soldiers painting a tan Iraqi military truck white in an attempt to sell it on the open market. We were told to “tolerate a certain amount of graft.”

Not surprisingly, I never received an accurate vehicle count from the Iraqi army. Each month, I counted the vehicles that the Iraqi army owned, a number that never matched the figures given to me by the Iraqi battalion. To make matters worse, after I turned in the number that I had counted, I would often find my figures altered after brigade released their own report. In April 2005, I documented the fraud in an e-mail. Two days later, I was confronted by two superior officers and told that my reports would no longer be needed.

If I doubted that the Iraqis were any more committed than my own superiors to outfitting and training their army, the answer came after a long presentation to the Iraqi army battalion’s executive officer, offering suggestions on his logistics operational plan. I concluded by asking what he thought. “My plan is that you should care for all of our logistical needs,” he said. “Why?” I asked. The Iraqi executive officer replied, “You broke our country. Now, you fix it.” The essence of a failed policy did not get any clearer than that.

* * *

From October 2004 to June 2005, the prevailing attitude of our battalion—including my own at first—was that the Iraqis were incapable of conducting operations independently. However, after speaking with locals and Iraqi army officers, I reached a different conclusion. The locals asked me why Iraqis were not doing more on missions. Iraqi officers told me that they conducted company-level operations on their own nearly a year prior to our arrival. Did our higher command know and simply not choose to use this information? Or was it a ploy to prolong a state of perpetual war?

I decided to test the theory. In March 2005, I began to send Iraqis out on missions into Mosul, usually unbeknownst to my battalion, and found them capable of conducting missions on their own except when they were hampered by our military values and horrible perception of the local area. When I sent Iraqis out alone, they found evidence and insurgents that we never were able to, though they were none too careful about complying with the Geneva Conventions. Once battalion discovered these missions, they quickly reeled them, and me, in. All Iraqi missions would thereafter be dictated by our U.S. battalion, and I would make sure that the Iraqis performed these missions in the exact manner in which they were dictated.

During the last week of March, I relayed this new strategy to the Iraqi battalion commander and his underlings. They asked to speak with my battalion commander, but he refused and dismissed the matter, reminding me that all parties would comply with his wishes. Two days later, I argued with two Iraqi officers, who up until then had been my friends. One said that the only reason they would go to an area they knew to be heavily laden with IED ambushes was that they respected me.

That respect was shattered less than an hour later when an IED wounded four of their soldiers. Although I rushed them to the hospital and they lived, the respect I worked for five months to earn vanished. From that point on, my time with the Iraqis was much more difficult.

Our relationships with the locals fared no better. Our line companies spent nearly every waking minute on patrol. The nightly door-kicks on residents’ homes proved excellent recruiting tools for local terrorists. I recall several occasions of having to kick in doors to take cover only to hear screaming locals.

Moreover, due to the high frequency of our line companies prowling the city, the Iraqi army and our cell working with them took a very distant backseat in priority. If we needed to discuss a problem with our battalion commander, he was in the city on patrol. If our goal was to turn the city over to the Iraqis, so we could leave, why was he out all the time without the Iraqis? At the very least, if the Iraqis stirred up a hornet’s nest among the local people, it’s their own nest.

* * *

Though force structure was problematic, training inefficient, logistical support nonexistent, and combat operations illogical, by far the most personally frustrating factor in fulfilling my assignment was the ocean of financial corruption. Our government has tolerated a systematic culture of “spend to win” that fattens the pockets of the few and accomplishes little.

Each month, along with our cell’s master sergeant, I handed a minimum payment of $100,000 to the Iraqi army battalion. $50,000 covered their monthly operational budget—facilities upgrades, maintenance parts, etc. The other $50,000 went toward the battalion’s subsistence budget, which allowed each soldier $90 a month for food. The problem was that the Iraqis said they had 556 soldiers, and we never counted more than 350 at any given time. Yet we were ordered to pay on the basis of the numbers they declared, with the remainder going directly into the Iraqi leadership’s pockets.

The operational budget proved to be an even worse disaster. Each month we handed over $50,000, yet no money was ever spent on tools for the mechanics, no improvements were made to the buildings, no new vehicles were ever purchased. So why did we continue to give $50,000 each month? The Iraqi army officers would not perform for anything less. We were bribing them to keep up the appearance of a workable fighting force.

Our receipts for these transactions were cleared back through the comptrollers who tracked what U.S. battalions were spending. When it was learned that we were spending $100,000 a month, we were told that we were not spending enough and were accused of not supporting the mission. The message was clear: the more money we gave the Iraqis, the greater chance of keeping the Iraqi unit together.

We also had a projects account for spending money on the Iraqis. After the theft of the uniform payment of $20,000, we only used this system two more times. Both resulted in complete failure. In December 2004, we negotiated a contract for 15 Toyota 4x4 pick-up trucks. All were to be no older than 2000, and the price of each was $11,000, making the total contract value $165,000. We traveled to Dahuk to make this transaction, but a 1994 model was the newest truck before us. Many of the others were badly damaged and barely running. We called off the deal and in turn angered the Iraqi army battalion’s leadership, which had recommended the vendor.

In February 2005, desperate to initiate some progress on new barracks on the Iraqi army battalion compound, we again enlisted the help of the Iraqi army to find a contractor. But the deal fell flat after the he refused anything less than 40 percent of the total price quote for the buildings up front. By our rules, we could not surrender such a sum. (After the failed sale, we returned the funds and were asked by the comptroller if we were sure we wanted to return this money.)

Meanwhile, U.S. Army Civil Affairs began to compensate Iraqi army soldiers for damages incurred by “terrorist” attacks. On one occasion, two Iraqi brothers who were junior officers in our battalion stated that someone burned down their house and shot up their car. They were paid even after we told Civil Affairs that several Iraqi soldiers told us that these men inflicted the destruction themselves. Civil Affairs did not ride out to the site, they merely took the brothers’ photos of the damage at face value.

They also rewarded any Iraqi for information concerning insurgents. One soldier brought information on compact discs that he explained was terrorist intelligence. The CDs did show insurgent propaganda but could be purchased at many different marketplaces in Mosul and served no purpose other than general propaganda. Yet Civil Affairs paid off this soldier.

We alerted our battalion leadership to all of this, and some of the information was sent up to brigade, but that was as far as the inquiry ever went. The system was set up so that we could not physically account for the money without breaking the rules.

* * *

I returned home in September 2005, grateful and safe, but stripped of the illusions I had taken with me. My experience proved that contrary to countless official pronouncements, the Bush administration has no interest in the Iraqi army training program. We were fighting a war to establish permanent bases in Iraq to better manipulate the flow of Middle East oil. For if this war was about human rights, why were we not in Rwanda? If our mission was about bringing democracy to a region, then why were we not in Cuba? And if the intelligence leading up to this war was merely faulty, why was no one fired?

I believed in my mission, and I wanted the Iraqis I was training to run their own country. But this wasn’t an American priority, and I left Mosul feeling that my efforts were either erased or ignored.

That’s not to say that the men who died in Iraq died for nothing. They were doing their jobs. But the Bush administration disgraces their memories by stating that our only option is to prolong a losing policy. If I learned anything from the lessons I was charged with teaching, it’s that a good military leader examines costs and benefits and adjusts his course accordingly. Yet this administration refuses to learn from its mistakes, level with the soldiers fighting its war, and bring the sad American chapter called Iraq to a close. ___________________________________

Joe W. Guthrie served three years in the U.S. Army as an Infantry officer and was honorably discharged in December 2005. He now works as a PE teacher and coach at a private school in Florida.


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: anamericansoldier; govwatch; iraq; iraqiarmy; terrorwar; waronterror
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1 posted on 07/07/2006 7:44:49 AM PDT by SJackson
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To: SJackson

Move over Murtha and Sheehan!


2 posted on 07/07/2006 7:51:00 AM PDT by frogjerk (LIBERALISM: The perpetual insulting of common sense.)
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To: SJackson

Better to light one candle than curse the darkness.


3 posted on 07/07/2006 7:52:50 AM PDT by 50sDad (ST3d: Real Star Trek 3d Chess: http://my.ohio.voyager.net/~abartmes/tactical.htm)
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To: SJackson

I wonder who "ghost-wrote" this propaganda piece...


4 posted on 07/07/2006 7:54:20 AM PDT by pfony1
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To: pfony1
I wonder who "ghost-wrote" this propaganda piece...

It's one soldiers opinion, out of hundreds of thousands. He probably wrote it.

5 posted on 07/07/2006 7:56:55 AM PDT by SJackson (The Pilgrims—Doing the jobs Native Americans wouldn’t do!)
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To: SJackson

Typical leftist coward. Joined the army soley for a "free" education, expecting to give nothing back.
The army is not a free education outlet. You join to serve and defend the nation's interests, with your life if nessesary. They don't tell you that for nothing when you enlist.


6 posted on 07/07/2006 7:57:06 AM PDT by Nathan Zachary
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To: SJackson
What this like the 5th time this has been posted? Still utter and total nonsense. 1st off all the intellectually pretensions of this author are prove a fraud by THIS. Joe W. Guthrie served three years in the U.S. Army as an Infantry officer and was honorably discharged in December 2005. He now works as a PE teacher and coach at a private school in Florida.

3 years? Why only 3 years Joe? Seems pretty gutless to cut and run after 3 years in exchange for getting your school paid for. Why this genius a PE teacher then? Also, the facts on the ground demonstrate the assumptions and conclusions utter nonsense. This is just another example of how the Neo-Isolationist Right is little different from the Hysteric Left. They simply refuse to evolve and cling desperately to their established dogma no matter how many times reality smashes them in the face. The facts on the ground show this fool to be a fraud and a liar. If the Iraqis are so incompetent why are we truing over more and more of the day to day operations to them? Why are we planning to draw down our forces? I have contacts in the 172 Strykers on the ground in Iraq. They tell a vastly different story. Who am I suppose to believe, multiple on the ground witnesses or some guy that just confidently verifies every editorial position the Neo-Isolationists at the ACU have taken on Iraq?

Rather then simply moving on the Hard Right, like the hysteric left simply keeps screaming the same lies and bile in the hope that some how that will prevent them from having to admit they were utterly wrong about Iraq.

7 posted on 07/07/2006 7:59:02 AM PDT by MNJohnnie (Fire Murtha Now! Spread the word. Support Diana Irey. http://www.irey.com/)
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To: pfony1
Byron York has a new book out The Vast Left-Wing Conspiracy

I heard him on Bill Bennett's Morning in America show this a.m. Basically, this book outlines how the Democratic party is working with miltary officers to undermine the war effort and using other efforts to discredit President Bush.
8 posted on 07/07/2006 8:07:10 AM PDT by Binghamton_native
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Comment #9 Removed by Moderator

To: SJackson

LOL, we are back to a war for oil? Yawn.


10 posted on 07/07/2006 8:14:13 AM PDT by roses of sharon
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To: SJackson

I've read lots of reports on milblogs and elsewhere which are contrary to this, and report many achievements made by the Iraqi forces and police - there are setbacks, of course, as in anything, but things seem to be moving forward. I'm sorry this guy had such a bad experience, and hope he finds what he's looking for now that he's back home.


11 posted on 07/07/2006 8:14:29 AM PDT by hsalaw
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To: frogjerk

My dear frogjerk,
U and I have had numerous cordial conversations on FR over the years but I must take exception to your lumping this trooper in with Murtha and Sheenan.

Yes, this COULD prove to be an agitprop piece to stir more anti-war sentiment. It could ALSO be a legitimate complaint by a well-intentioned whistle-blower who would rather our treasure and blood be expended more judiciously.

War IS wasteful but if this trooper's report is accurate, some of these folks lining their pockets while our guys ride around on IED strewn roads in UNARMORED or DO-IT-YOURSELF ARMORED HUMVEES due to lack of MONEY need a well-deserved summary execution. At the very least, an early morning fragging would be appropriate. And remember that those IEDs are frequently constructed from munitions from the hundreds of ammo dumps LEFT UNGUARDED and RAIDED AT WILL BY THE BAD GUYS BECAUSE THE ECONOMIC AND HUMAN RESOURCES TO GUARD/DESTROY THEM WERE BEING WASTED IN CRAP OF THE SORT HE DESCRIBES.

I don't know about YOUR experience with the military bureaucracy but I had 4 years of it during the Nam era and I can tell you first-hand that it MUST be regularly ratted out with information of this sort if it is to function for the benefit of our soldiers. That's why the IG's office exists and even IT fails on a regular basis due to incompetence and/or lack of motivation and resolve to do the right thing.

Just a few things to consider.


12 posted on 07/07/2006 8:20:48 AM PDT by Dick Bachert
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To: MNJohnnie

Sorry, friend, but this young former author's account has a ring of authenticity to me. Having served six years as an army officer, I know how goofball and bureaucratic our army is in attempting to run civil affairs. And it's pretty sad that you criticize this fellow for THREE years service as an officer, with a YEAR in a hell-hole like Iraq. That's three years more than most folks, including his critics, ever gave.

It's time to wrap this Iraq affair up and bring it home I think. We kicked out Saddam and rooted out the Baathist party. What else do we really expect to accomplish there?


13 posted on 07/07/2006 8:24:27 AM PDT by Elpasser
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To: SJackson
What can be said??? if true,and it has the ring of authenticity, it is an indicator of an original SNAFU. And I was beginning to believe our military had recovered its integrity.. f##ing sad, and sadder for our country.
14 posted on 07/07/2006 8:24:36 AM PDT by late bloomer ( Neglegere homo pone aulaeum. semi-retired warlord)
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To: SJackson

"joined the National Guard to earn some extra money"

Wrong motivation. I joined the Navy to serve my country, earn a living, get some training. I did all that by staying on active duty for more than 27 years.

I am not impressed by whining wimps like this.


15 posted on 07/07/2006 8:33:31 AM PDT by Gunner9mm (www.libertycall.us)
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To: Elpasser

Sorry, should have said "young former officer," not author


16 posted on 07/07/2006 8:34:11 AM PDT by Elpasser
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To: Dick Bachert

This soldier sounds like he truly wanted to do his job, and was frustrated by the corruption he had to deal with. The account he gives of the barriers to his mission has the ring of truth. A country like Iraq which has functioned on "baksheesh" for so many years is not likely to change overnight. If our military is "going along to get along", that's a true shame.


17 posted on 07/07/2006 8:35:20 AM PDT by widowithfoursons
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To: MikefromOhio; Allegra

Pinz

pinz


18 posted on 07/07/2006 8:38:36 AM PDT by pinz-n-needlez (Charter Snowflake, Rummy fan)
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To: pinz-n-needlez

Um, that should be 'Ping.' My fingers are creatures of habit. ;-)

Pinz


19 posted on 07/07/2006 8:39:22 AM PDT by pinz-n-needlez (Charter Snowflake, Rummy fan)
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To: SJackson

Interesting article, and I thank him for his military service in the war zone.

But I'd also note that General Mclellan had a different view of the war than did President Lincoln.


20 posted on 07/07/2006 8:48:27 AM PDT by Diddle E. Squat
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To: SJackson
We were fighting a war to establish permanent bases in Iraq to better manipulate the flow of Middle East oil.

This conclusion isn't supported by the facts he outlines, and may have been inserted later by a leftist editor. If anything, we haven't done enough to carve out portions of Iraq as sovereign US territory to serve as permanent forward bases for the forthcoming Muslim War.

Despite that, the rest of the piece is an enlightening look at the situation in Iraq that once again proves that you can't save a people that doesn't want to be saved.

21 posted on 07/07/2006 8:54:22 AM PDT by Mr. Jeeves ("When the government is invasive, the people are wanting." -- Tao Te Ching)
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To: SJackson

This gut has to be a USAIOINO...


22 posted on 07/07/2006 9:04:44 AM PDT by stuartcr (Everything happens as God wants it to.....otherwise, things would be different.)
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To: Mr. Jeeves

Dittos to each and every word!


23 posted on 07/07/2006 9:15:32 AM PDT by Eastbound
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To: SJackson

His whole piece is undermined by the fact that Iraq's military according to wide ranging sources is performing admirably. Another embedded 5th columnist...


24 posted on 07/07/2006 9:24:02 AM PDT by MikeA (Not voting in November because you're pouting is a vote for Nancy Pelosi for Speaker of the House)
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To: SJackson
"Or was it a ploy to prolong a state of perpetual war?"

This is right out of the liberal lexicon. He reveals what he is with this use of the term "perpetual war" as well as several other left wing buzzwords he employs throughout the piece.

Could it POSSIBLY be that far from wanting "perpetual war," which no military man would ever want, the US commanders were just being cautious in not overloading the Iraqi military too soon and too early and wanted to give them more time to prepare?? Geez, imagine that.

25 posted on 07/07/2006 9:27:38 AM PDT by MikeA (Not voting in November because you're pouting is a vote for Nancy Pelosi for Speaker of the House)
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To: Gunner9mm

Guns, a lot of people join the service for a variety of motives, and not everyone chooses to make a career of it. There's nothing dishonorable about that.


26 posted on 07/07/2006 9:29:21 AM PDT by LN2Campy
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To: Dick Bachert

"the military bureaucracy.........MUST be regularly ratted out with information of this sort"

________________________

Amen brother!


27 posted on 07/07/2006 9:35:19 AM PDT by MOX (I don't need no stinkin tagline)
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To: Elpasser
Having served six years as an army officer

Well maybe you can answer this question for me: Are officers "discharged" or do they "resign"?

28 posted on 07/07/2006 9:48:36 AM PDT by metesky ("Brethren, leave us go amongst them." Rev. Capt. Samuel Johnston Clayton - Ward Bond- The Searchers)
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bookmark


29 posted on 07/07/2006 10:04:29 AM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: MOX

Mox, I was an engineering instructor stationed at Fort Belvoir during the early 60's (that's 1960's!) during the run-up to Nam.

One of the mind-blowing events I witnessed every quarter or so was the DUMPSTER behind Wheeler Hall fill up with OFTEN VERY EXPENSIVE, BRAND NEW equipment of all sorts.

Why?

Because to accomplish our mission, our supply guys often had to wheedle, cajole or bribe (usually with a few bottles of JB Black) the Belvoir central supply depot guys for mission-critical equipment -- which equipment was NOT on our AUTHORIZATION LIST!

If we got word that the IG was headed our way for a snap inspection/audit, the local guys would go through the supply room and either stash any UNAUTHORIZED items in the trunks of their cars -- for retreival later -- or simply toss them into the dumpster lest they be found and someone get reamed.

I saw scores of thousands of 1963 dollars worth of brand new stuff sent to the dump over my 3 years there.

I TRIED to extrapolate that experience at just ONE training section of ONE department of ONE installation to the entire system but had to quit when my brain threatened to explode.

The waste and corruption today must be on an imponderable scale...


30 posted on 07/07/2006 11:12:04 AM PDT by Dick Bachert
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To: MNJohnnie

I am a twenty year veteran and my first time in a combat theater. I am afraid this rings true to my experience there in Baghdad from April 05 to Nov 05. I was right in the middle of the area where the new Iraqi Commando battalion and I.C.T.F. (Iraqi Counter Terrorism Force)are being trained. Army SF guys that are training them would tell all kinds of stories about how hard it is to train the Iraqis. Most of the Iraqi people are thieving, lying, useless pieces of human waste that are dumb as rocks. There were some that were pretty intelligent though. The local contractors doing construction there are way overpaid and get away with shoddy workmanship and our guys that are in charge of paying them for the work are told to pay them from their higher ups regardless of how the work comes out. I am by no means a lefty or have ever voted Dumocrat, but some things that go on in that theater like Joe Guthrie experienced is the natural truth.


31 posted on 07/07/2006 11:20:45 AM PDT by SeabeeDet01 (OOORAH SEABEE!!)
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To: SJackson

Hmm, he joined up in 2002, he deployed in 2005 and was discharged in 2005. Quick tour and out. MMMmm. Most young men I know who went did return tours.


32 posted on 07/07/2006 11:33:52 AM PDT by tioga
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To: frogjerk

Yeah, I get all my geo-political wisdom from a PE coach.


33 posted on 07/07/2006 11:36:03 AM PDT by ozzymandus
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To: SJackson
Having served in Vietnam, Thailand, South Korea, Germany and Saudi Arabia I could make the following generalizations: the ARVNs (South VIetnamese) were cowardly, the ROKs (South Koreans) were dumb, the Thais were corrupt, the Germans were soft (certainly comparing the Bundesheer to the Wehrmacht), and the Saudis were all of the above. I could do that, if I had only spent three (count 'em three) years in the Army, and only one overseas tour. However, I was fortunate enough to have a slightly better vantage point from which I could realize that "Marvin the ARVN" was cut from the same cloth as his VC and NVA opponent (AKA the guys who were left standing when the match was over); the Thais (corrupt or not) actually defeated their former Thai Communist insurgency; the ROKs (with their "Banzaii" style tactics) earned a respect from the VC/NVA that we never got (it was said that the VC/NVA would detour 50km to avoid going through a ROK area of operations); the Germans (soft or not) are doing a decent job in Afghanistan; and the Saudis performed competently in Operation Desert Storm.

The (largetly Sunni) Old Iraqi Army, as many Bush Administration critics have pointed out, was disbanded post-OIF I. The New (mainly Shia) Iraqi Army is being built from whole cloth. I wonder what Baron Von Steuben thought when he first saw the ragtag band of Continental Army recruits that awaited him at Valley Forge.

34 posted on 07/07/2006 12:28:52 PM PDT by pawdoggie
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To: metesky
Well maybe you can answer this question for me: Are officers "discharged" or do they "resign"?

Good question. While most of the article rings true, this is a comment that raises my antennae. ROTC officers usually have (when I was in) a six year obligation with a specific active duty obligation. After active duty, the balance of the time is served in the reserves or Guard. After the total active and reserve obligation is served, the officer can request discharge or continue to serve as a reserve officer.

35 posted on 07/07/2006 12:32:15 PM PDT by colorado tanker
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To: colorado tanker
I was commissioned as a Second Lieutenant in December 2002

Then it seems to me that this guy still owes 2 1/2 years reserve or Guard duty and he should STFU.

Am I wrong?

36 posted on 07/07/2006 1:06:28 PM PDT by metesky ("Brethren, leave us go amongst them." Rev. Capt. Samuel Johnston Clayton - Ward Bond- The Searchers)
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To: metesky
Depends on the deal he got when he signed up, but it would appear so. If he was discharged early you have to wonder if he got in some kind of trouble. OTOH, he might have gotten a medical discharge, but you'd think he'd mention something like that in his story.

Another thing that bothered me is his statement he was in "the 82nd Airborne Infantry." That's not how people talk in my experience. You're in the 82nd or 82nd Airborne or 82nd Airborne Division. But using the branch designator after the number is usually done when discussing a regiment or battalion, like 10th Infantry or 32nd Armor. Because of that, if the branch designator is used, people finish with "division" as in 2nd Infantry Division, so you know they're talking about the division and not a regiment.

Dunno, there is a lot in his story that rings true, but I'd like some verification. Remember the protester a few months ago who turned out to be an impersonator?

37 posted on 07/07/2006 1:19:12 PM PDT by colorado tanker
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To: Elpasser; SeabeeDet01
This is the view from the ground, not the the carefully air brushed fluff put out by the ACU to validate their dogma about Iraq. So I am just suppose to ignore this and take the ranting of the "Hide under the bed crowd" serious?

Author is a Sargent with the 172nd Strykers. He is Puerto Rican with a GED but 12 years service. His English and grammar isn't as polished as the ACU types but he doesn't talk out his butt like they are either.

****Snip*******

Personal stuff cut out......

I could wait to tell you what we saw today. As usual we were doing our routine patrols and as we were heading back to Mares. We saw that the IP’s (Iraqi Police) had one of the main roads closed. Shortly after, we realized that they were working on an IED placed on the right of the road exactly where we normally pass by to make a right turn. This people have a great sense of bravery, because even with the limitation on the equipment that they were using to deactivate the IED, this IP’s worked with it fearless. There were basically about 7 IP’s on the ground, one with binoculars, two with a string with a hook in the middle of it and the rest of them pulling security for the ones working directly with the IED. The technique used to deactivate the IED was merely simple. The used the hook to extract the ignition device away from the round (one 155mm). After the ignition device was away from the round, then extracting the round out of the whole was “piece of cake”. I’m glad and thank God for these men, because it could hit any of our Stryker and cause other tragedy like on February 26, 2006.


Some that cranked me up was that while they worked on the IED, none of us got out of the Stryker at least to help pulling security for them. Though the Stryker it self has a .50 cal mounted and I think they were helping that way. In addition, two of my peers were just criticizing the way that these IP’s worked with the IED. Man I just wanted to tell them that if they know as much and they wanted so bad to do some about it they could go out and help them with the problem. The finally shut up when they saw when the IP’s pulled the round out of the hole. I apologize for this, but I needed to get it out of my system because in the way that I see it is that those men saved our sorry asses from getting blow up. Probably the only way we might would realized that it was an IED there is if it would exploded and even kill or injure some one. I hate the fact of people talking smack and not doing anything about it.

Well this incident also remind me couple weeks ago when a SVBIED blow up and couple minutes later an IED went off about 200 meters away from the SVBIED site. When we there about 15 minutes after all this happened, but the must interesting part is who an IA (Iraqi Army) guy crawled like a snake into the hole just to peep and see what was the status of the remaining UXO (Unexploded Ordnance). After he (IA) realized that this rounds didn’t represented a threat (at least to him), he just pulled them out like candies. Even an explosion took place, it had 5 unexploded rounds inside the IED hole and we heard that the explosion from the EID was quite loud. Now you can imagine how much damage this IED would make if it would go off completely.
38 posted on 07/07/2006 1:27:57 PM PDT by MNJohnnie (Fire Murtha Now! Spread the word. Support Diana Irey. http://www.irey.com/)
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To: Nathan Zachary
The army is not a free education outlet. You join to serve and defend the nation's interests, with your life if nessesary. They don't tell you that for nothing when you enlist.

He joined up. They said go to Iraq and he went. They said do this job and he did it as best he could. He served his full military commitment and then got out. And he waited until he got out to voice his opinion. What the hell is cowardly in that?

39 posted on 07/07/2006 1:34:54 PM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: Non-Sequitur
What the hell is cowardly in that?

Maybe cowardly is not quite the right word. Stupid. Ignorant. Dishonorable. Self-serving. Going public to educate and encourage the enemy.

Can you come up with a reason that he wanted this published?

40 posted on 07/07/2006 2:06:29 PM PDT by daybreakcoming
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To: daybreakcoming
Can you come up with a reason that he wanted this published?

Well it's obviously something he thought strongly about. I may not agree with him but I'm not going to start questioning his motives based on this alone.

41 posted on 07/07/2006 2:50:10 PM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: SJackson
Sounds like another POS who was stationed at Ft. Lewis...but didn't go when deployed.

People like this arse dirty the thousands of good men and women who serve their nation and not a political agenda.

42 posted on 07/07/2006 2:55:28 PM PDT by CWOJackson (Tancredo? Wasn't he the bounty hunter in the Star Wars series?)
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To: Nathan Zachary

Mr. Zachary:

As someone who knows Joe Guthrie, the author of the article "Nation Breaking," very well (and he did write it, by the way), I feel compelled to respond to some erroneous assumptions you have made based on no information.

A) Joe is not and never has been a leftist. He was raised in a conservative family and has always maintained conservative values. This is why he wanted his article published in a CONSERVATIVE magazine, one whose agenda claims to seek out corruption in government, among other things!! Is anyone who disagrees with the Bush administration automatically branded a leftist, propagandist, pinko, etc.? Apparently this is indeed the case, and is a sad state of affairs. Try THINKING a little instead of just regurgitating what the administration wants you to believe.

B) THE ARMY DID NOT FUND ONE PENNY OF JOE'S EDUCATION!!! HE WAS IN GRADUATE SCHOOL WHEN THE RECRUITERS BEGAN TALKING TO HIM, BUT HE FINISHED A MASTER'S DEGREE IN HISTORY BEFORE HE EVER JOINED, ALL OF WHICH HE PAID FOR OUT OF HIS OWN POCKET!!! I THINK THAT'S VERY IMPORTANT FOR YOU TO KNOW, AND SHAME ON YOU FOR AUTOMATICALLY ASSUMING THAT THIS WAS HIS REASON FOR JOINING THE MILITARY. HE ACTUALLY HAD HIGH IDEALS ABOUT THE DIFFERENCE HE THOUGHT HE COULD MAKE WHEN HE MADE THE DECISION TO JOIN.

C) JOE IS A BIG, STRAPPING, 6'3" GUY WHO FOUGHT IN MANY BATTLES IN IRAQ AND WAS AWARDED SEVERAL MEDALS FOR THE JOB HE DID IN "FIREFIGHTS." HE LED HIS MEN BRAVELY AND WAS HIGHLY THOUGHT OF BY BOTH THE AMERICANS AND IRAQIS THAT HE TRAINED. THESE FACTS CAN BE VERIFIED EASILY. THERE IS NOTHING COWARDLY ABOUT THIS YOUNG MAN; HE SIMPLY HAS A DIFFERENT OPINION THAN YOU DO. CALLING PEOPLE NAMES BASED ON NO INFO MAKES YOU THE COWARD IN MY ESTIMATION.

Were you ever in the service? Have you ever been in combat? Just wondering...


43 posted on 07/09/2006 2:57:36 PM PDT by kwheeler
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To: kwheeler
Sorry but "The American Conservative" is anything but conservative. It is a publication for and by America Firster retreads who for some reason or another view all forgien policy through a prizm of Jew-hatred.
44 posted on 07/09/2006 3:05:45 PM PDT by Minus_The_Bear
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To: pinz-n-needlez
You could just say "NUMP"

I'm series.

45 posted on 07/09/2006 3:12:08 PM PDT by MrEdd (Bad spellers of the world - UNTIE!,)
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To: SJackson
But the longer I spent, the more I came to realize that this was not only a lie but an impossible strategy for achieving victory.

I got no further than this ...if its a lie what is the truth?

If its a lie what difference does it make if its a possible strategy or not?

46 posted on 07/09/2006 3:18:19 PM PDT by woofie ("Romper, bomper, stomper, boo. Tell me, tell me, tell me do.Magic mirror, tell me today. Did all ...)
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To: Dick Bachert
The waste and corruption today must be on an imponderable scale...

Take heart. If the supply improvements I saw starting in oh '87 or so continued after I got out in '91, computerization and frequent TAM updates have made things unrecognizably better since you were in. Not necessarily how they should be, but unbelievably better.

47 posted on 07/09/2006 3:18:20 PM PDT by MrEdd (Bad spellers of the world - UNTIE!,)
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To: MrEdd

LOL Thanks for the sage advice. ;-)

Pinz


48 posted on 07/09/2006 6:19:09 PM PDT by pinz-n-needlez (Charter Snowflake, Rummy fan)
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To: SJackson

Long read, not much positive in the author's view of his 10-11 month tour.

But all that he's described is year-old news. I wonder what it's like there today, a year later?

Some in the Microwave Generation can't understand when things aren't hunky-dorie immediately. Today bicycles come pre-assembled. Who makes a doll house for their kid nowadays when they can get a fine plastic one ready-made in China for them? Pick up a birthday cake - message already written on it for you - at the grocery store. Always-on internet. Cell phones in every hand for instant communication with everyone. The list goes on...

Some things take time. Some successes can't be measured by the hour or by the day. What is the measure of success in Iraq from May 2003 until today?

Better than the MSM is reporting (because they avoid positive stories), and better than this one guy's year-old report, and continuing to progress in the right direction.

Just my opinion.

For what it's worth.


49 posted on 07/09/2006 7:21:42 PM PDT by tgslTakoma
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To: Minus_The_Bear

Why do some of you people insist on calling anyone who doesn't think that every American policy decision should be based on appeasing the Jews a "Jew hater," "anti-Semite," or "biggot'?

I heard a man on C-Span today criticize Joe Leibermann's consistent support of any and all Jewish decisions. The man happened to be a Jew himself. The Leibermann suppoorter to whom he was speaking called him an "anti-Semite," explaining to his audience that "even Jews can be against Jews"!! This seemed to be his only argument: name-calling without making any substantial counter-argument.

You people simply reach for your shelf of convenient phrases anytime you're called upon to respond to criticism of your so-called beliefs. It would be so refreshing if you'd think on you own for once.

Furthermore, I may be naive, but I have no earthly idea who "America Firster retreads" are. Could they be people who believe in less government interference? Much, much less gov't spending? Less interference in other countries' affairs; etc.?? If so, then I guess I'm one of them, and proud of it. I call myself a conservative Libertarian, by the way; if that's synonymous with "Firster retreads," then so be it.


50 posted on 07/09/2006 8:56:22 PM PDT by kwheeler
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