Nation Breaking-soldier finds training the Iraqi army is an unwinnable battle [for strong stomachs]

The American Conservative ^ | 7-7-06 | Joe W. Guthrie

[Mr. Jeeves]

We were fighting a war to establish permanent bases in Iraq to better manipulate the flow of Middle East oil.

This conclusion isn't supported by the facts he outlines, and may have been inserted later by a leftist editor. If anything, we haven't done enough to carve out portions of Iraq as sovereign US territory to serve as permanent forward bases for the forthcoming Muslim War.

Despite that, the rest of the piece is an enlightening look at the situation in Iraq that once again proves that you can't save a people that doesn't want to be saved.

[stuartcr]

This gut has to be a USAIOINO...

[Eastbound]

Dittos to each and every word!

[MikeA]

His whole piece is undermined by the fact that Iraq's military according to wide ranging sources is performing admirably. Another embedded 5th columnist...

[MikeA]

"Or was it a ploy to prolong a state of perpetual war?"

This is right out of the liberal lexicon. He reveals what he is with this use of the term "perpetual war" as well as several other left wing buzzwords he employs throughout the piece.

Could it POSSIBLY be that far from wanting "perpetual war," which no military man would ever want, the US commanders were just being cautious in not overloading the Iraqi military too soon and too early and wanted to give them more time to prepare?? Geez, imagine that.

[LN2Campy]

Guns, a lot of people join the service for a variety of motives, and not everyone chooses to make a career of it. There's nothing dishonorable about that.

[MOX]

"the military bureaucracy.........MUST be regularly ratted out with information of this sort"

________________________

Amen brother!

[metesky]

Having served six years as an army officer

Well maybe you can answer this question for me: Are officers "discharged" or do they "resign"?

[redgolum]

bookmark

[Dick Bachert]

Mox, I was an engineering instructor stationed at Fort Belvoir during the early 60's (that's 1960's!) during the run-up to Nam.

One of the mind-blowing events I witnessed every quarter or so was the DUMPSTER behind Wheeler Hall fill up with OFTEN VERY EXPENSIVE, BRAND NEW equipment of all sorts.

Why?

Because to accomplish our mission, our supply guys often had to wheedle, cajole or bribe (usually with a few bottles of JB Black) the Belvoir central supply depot guys for mission-critical equipment -- which equipment was NOT on our AUTHORIZATION LIST!

If we got word that the IG was headed our way for a snap inspection/audit, the local guys would go through the supply room and either stash any UNAUTHORIZED items in the trunks of their cars -- for retreival later -- or simply toss them into the dumpster lest they be found and someone get reamed.

I saw scores of thousands of 1963 dollars worth of brand new stuff sent to the dump over my 3 years there.

I TRIED to extrapolate that experience at just ONE training section of ONE department of ONE installation to the entire system but had to quit when my brain threatened to explode.

The waste and corruption today must be on an imponderable scale...

[SeabeeDet01]

I am a twenty year veteran and my first time in a combat theater. I am afraid this rings true to my experience there in Baghdad from April 05 to Nov 05. I was right in the middle of the area where the new Iraqi Commando battalion and I.C.T.F. (Iraqi Counter Terrorism Force)are being trained. Army SF guys that are training them would tell all kinds of stories about how hard it is to train the Iraqis. Most of the Iraqi people are thieving, lying, useless pieces of human waste that are dumb as rocks. There were some that were pretty intelligent though. The local contractors doing construction there are way overpaid and get away with shoddy workmanship and our guys that are in charge of paying them for the work are told to pay them from their higher ups regardless of how the work comes out. I am by no means a lefty or have ever voted Dumocrat, but some things that go on in that theater like Joe Guthrie experienced is the natural truth.

[tioga]

Hmm, he joined up in 2002, he deployed in 2005 and was discharged in 2005. Quick tour and out. MMMmm. Most young men I know who went did return tours.

[ozzymandus]

Yeah, I get all my geo-political wisdom from a PE coach.

[pawdoggie]

Having served in Vietnam, Thailand, South Korea, Germany and Saudi Arabia I could make the following generalizations: the ARVNs (South VIetnamese) were cowardly, the ROKs (South Koreans) were dumb, the Thais were corrupt, the Germans were soft (certainly comparing the Bundesheer to the Wehrmacht), and the Saudis were all of the above. I could do that, if I had only spent three (count 'em three) years in the Army, and only one overseas tour. However, I was fortunate enough to have a slightly better vantage point from which I could realize that "Marvin the ARVN" was cut from the same cloth as his VC and NVA opponent (AKA the guys who were left standing when the match was over); the Thais (corrupt or not) actually defeated their former Thai Communist insurgency; the ROKs (with their "Banzaii" style tactics) earned a respect from the VC/NVA that we never got (it was said that the VC/NVA would detour 50km to avoid going through a ROK area of operations); the Germans (soft or not) are doing a decent job in Afghanistan; and the Saudis performed competently in Operation Desert Storm.

The (largetly Sunni) Old Iraqi Army, as many Bush Administration critics have pointed out, was disbanded post-OIF I. The New (mainly Shia) Iraqi Army is being built from whole cloth. I wonder what Baron Von Steuben thought when he first saw the ragtag band of Continental Army recruits that awaited him at Valley Forge.

[colorado tanker]

Well maybe you can answer this question for me: Are officers "discharged" or do they "resign"?

Good question. While most of the article rings true, this is a comment that raises my antennae. ROTC officers usually have (when I was in) a six year obligation with a specific active duty obligation. After active duty, the balance of the time is served in the reserves or Guard. After the total active and reserve obligation is served, the officer can request discharge or continue to serve as a reserve officer.

[metesky]

I was commissioned as a Second Lieutenant in December 2002

Then it seems to me that this guy still owes 2 1/2 years reserve or Guard duty and he should STFU.

Am I wrong?

[colorado tanker]

Depends on the deal he got when he signed up, but it would appear so. If he was discharged early you have to wonder if he got in some kind of trouble. OTOH, he might have gotten a medical discharge, but you'd think he'd mention something like that in his story.

Another thing that bothered me is his statement he was in "the 82nd Airborne Infantry." That's not how people talk in my experience. You're in the 82nd or 82nd Airborne or 82nd Airborne Division. But using the branch designator after the number is usually done when discussing a regiment or battalion, like 10th Infantry or 32nd Armor. Because of that, if the branch designator is used, people finish with "division" as in 2nd Infantry Division, so you know they're talking about the division and not a regiment.

Dunno, there is a lot in his story that rings true, but I'd like some verification. Remember the protester a few months ago who turned out to be an impersonator?

[MNJohnnie]

This is the view from the ground, not the the carefully air brushed fluff put out by the ACU to validate their dogma about Iraq. So I am just suppose to ignore this and take the ranting of the "Hide under the bed crowd" serious?

Author is a Sargent with the 172nd Strykers. He is Puerto Rican with a GED but 12 years service. His English and grammar isn't as polished as the ACU types but he doesn't talk out his butt like they are either.

****Snip*******

Personal stuff cut out......

I could wait to tell you what we saw today. As usual we were doing our routine patrols and as we were heading back to Mares. We saw that the IP’s (Iraqi Police) had one of the main roads closed. Shortly after, we realized that they were working on an IED placed on the right of the road exactly where we normally pass by to make a right turn. This people have a great sense of bravery, because even with the limitation on the equipment that they were using to deactivate the IED, this IP’s worked with it fearless. There were basically about 7 IP’s on the ground, one with binoculars, two with a string with a hook in the middle of it and the rest of them pulling security for the ones working directly with the IED. The technique used to deactivate the IED was merely simple. The used the hook to extract the ignition device away from the round (one 155mm). After the ignition device was away from the round, then extracting the round out of the whole was “piece of cake”. I’m glad and thank God for these men, because it could hit any of our Stryker and cause other tragedy like on February 26, 2006.


Some that cranked me up was that while they worked on the IED, none of us got out of the Stryker at least to help pulling security for them. Though the Stryker it self has a .50 cal mounted and I think they were helping that way. In addition, two of my peers were just criticizing the way that these IP’s worked with the IED. Man I just wanted to tell them that if they know as much and they wanted so bad to do some about it they could go out and help them with the problem. The finally shut up when they saw when the IP’s pulled the round out of the hole. I apologize for this, but I needed to get it out of my system because in the way that I see it is that those men saved our sorry asses from getting blow up. Probably the only way we might would realized that it was an IED there is if it would exploded and even kill or injure some one. I hate the fact of people talking smack and not doing anything about it.

Well this incident also remind me couple weeks ago when a SVBIED blow up and couple minutes later an IED went off about 200 meters away from the SVBIED site. When we there about 15 minutes after all this happened, but the must interesting part is who an IA (Iraqi Army) guy crawled like a snake into the hole just to peep and see what was the status of the remaining UXO (Unexploded Ordnance). After he (IA) realized that this rounds didn’t represented a threat (at least to him), he just pulled them out like candies. Even an explosion took place, it had 5 unexploded rounds inside the IED hole and we heard that the explosion from the EID was quite loud. Now you can imagine how much damage this IED would make if it would go off completely.

[Non-Sequitur]

The army is not a free education outlet. You join to serve and defend the nation's interests, with your life if nessesary. They don't tell you that for nothing when you enlist.

He joined up. They said go to Iraq and he went. They said do this job and he did it as best he could. He served his full military commitment and then got out. And he waited until he got out to voice his opinion. What the hell is cowardly in that?

[daybreakcoming]

What the hell is cowardly in that?

Maybe cowardly is not quite the right word. Stupid. Ignorant. Dishonorable. Self-serving. Going public to educate and encourage the enemy.

Can you come up with a reason that he wanted this published?