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US House for selling F-22 Raptor to allies only
Indo-Asian News Service ^ | July 5, 2006 | Arun Kumar

Posted on 07/11/2006 12:05:59 AM PDT by AKSurprise

Washington, July 5 (IANS) The US House of Representatives has recommended lifting a nine-year ban on international sales of the F-22 Raptor, its most advanced fighter made by the same firm that manufactures F-16s proposed to be sold to Pakistan.

But instead of putting the plane in the general shopping window, Lockheed Martin is eyeing US allies like Australia, Britain and Japan as potential buyers for the expensive plane.

The House voted to lift the ban after an 11-minute debate on June 20, Washington Post reported.

Prospects of passage in the Senate are unclear, but it has been generally more tolerant of allowing international involvement in military programmes.

The ban was put in place to keep the Raptor's high-tech systems out of the hands of foreign governments. But with US military orders for the jet lagging, members of Congress and some top staffers in the air force have become concerned that Lockheed may shut down the plane's production line in coming years.

The $70 billion fighter programme is one of Lockheed's largest, employing more than 4,500 workers in Georgia and Texas and bringing in hundreds of millions of dollars in annual revenue.

The Pentagon has steadily lowered the number of F-22s it planned to purchase from the 750 -- it thought it needed to face off against the Soviet Union nearly 20 years ago -- down to 183. As with the older F-16, foreign purchases could keep the Raptor in business.

Lockheed and some in the air force began making a case for overseas sales of the fighter early this year as the Pentagon lowered the number of planes it would buy to save $10 billion over the next few years.

Until that point, Lockheed had expected to sell about 381 planes to the US government. The reduction prompted Lockheed to say it would have to close the F-22 production line by 2011.

Any specific sale is likely to face concerns about the export of technology that is still considered sensitive. Congress has continued funding the plane, despite its increasing cost, in part because the Raptor's technology was considered worth sustaining.

Excluding development costs that the Pentagon paid early in the programme, the price of the plane drops to between $150 million and $183 million, or even less for a stripped-down model. Foreign sales could also help defray some of the cost of the plane to the US military and keep the production line going.

Lt. Col. James Hecker flies over Fort Monroe (Virgina, USA) before delivering the first operational F-22A Raptor to its permanent home at Langley Air Force Base, Va., on May 12. This is the first of 26 Raptors to be delivered to the 27th Fighter Squadron. The Raptor program is managed by the F-22A System Program Office at Wright-Patterson AFB, Ohio. Colonel Hecker is the squadron's commander.


TOPICS: Government; News/Current Events; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: allies; australia; britain; congress; f22; fighter; house; israel; japan; kingdom; raptor; uk; united; us
The US ought to sell stripped down versions of this fighter to close allies. Not only would it keep the production line open it would also knock down the price per unit for these bad-boys. The F/A 22A is the fighter the US should be buying in large quantities, not the JSF "Lightning II". The JSF has a limited range, and is designed for too many missions to be very good at any one. The F-22 on the other hand is designed as an air superiority fighter, and is the best in the world at doing that job. See the article link below, it makes the point much better than I ever could....>Air Power Australia
1 posted on 07/11/2006 12:06:03 AM PDT by AKSurprise
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To: AKSurprise

The House is absolutely correct, and I'm sure they're taking into account that some allies are more trustworthy than others in controlling the technology that comes with the fighters.


2 posted on 07/11/2006 12:13:34 AM PDT by coconutt2000 (NO MORE PEACE FOR OIL!!! DOWN WITH TYRANTS, TERRORISTS, AND TIMIDCRATS!!!! (3-T's For World Peace))
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To: AKSurprise
"The US ought to sell stripped down versions of this fighter to close allies. "

At $150 million a copy, "stripped down" might be a tough sell.

yitbos

3 posted on 07/11/2006 12:17:03 AM PDT by bruinbirdman ("Those who control language control minds.")
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To: AKSurprise

'11-minute debate'

That's less time than I spend on the throne after a bag of sliders.


4 posted on 07/11/2006 12:19:42 AM PDT by Westlander (Unleash the Neutron Bomb)
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To: Westlander

LOL!! Now THAT's a sig line.


5 posted on 07/11/2006 12:21:12 AM PDT by moehoward
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To: bruinbirdman

selling it to a wider market would make it cheaper - that's the point of doing it.


6 posted on 07/11/2006 12:26:43 AM PDT by Rummenigge
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To: Rummenigge
The Brits have a new bird that is almost a duplicate of the F-22 don't they? What about the Universal Fighter for NATO? How's that coming along? Aren't they all just about the same?

yitbos?

7 posted on 07/11/2006 12:32:46 AM PDT by bruinbirdman ("Those who control language control minds.")
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To: AKSurprise

what are the Soviets flying these days?

I'm kinda worried about a possible fighter gap.


8 posted on 07/11/2006 12:46:40 AM PDT by greasepaint
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To: AKSurprise
US House for selling F-22 Raptor to allies only

So, they're not selling to Democrats(?)

9 posted on 07/11/2006 12:47:16 AM PDT by The Duke (I have met the enemy, and he is named 'Apathy'!)
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To: bruinbirdman

"At $150 million a copy, "stripped down" might be a tough sell."

Even "stripped down," there is NOTHING on this planet that can come close to the F22 in air-to-air, except for a non-stripped down F22.

The thing was over-engineered in the tradition of good US milspec equipment. It far exceeds it's design parameters, which were considered to be ridiculous (if not impossible) when first released.

Countries will be clamoring for the F22, even "stripped down."


10 posted on 07/11/2006 12:48:08 AM PDT by piytar
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To: bruinbirdman

Naaa EF2000 is no F-22.

F-22= Stealthier while not using after burner, faster without afterburner, more reach.

EF2000 = Better IR Sensors, more paypload, cheaper, turns faster

F-22 is for taking down any aircraft anywhere - even over countries that own a certain degree of radar coverage.

EF2000 is a deliverance vehicle for ordonance of any kind.


11 posted on 07/11/2006 12:51:47 AM PDT by Rummenigge
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To: bruinbirdman
The "Universal Fighter" for NATO is the JSF aka F-35 "Lighting II", it's not a bad fourth generation mutli-role fighter. Especially for most NATO nations that are not going to be in any major air wars any time soon. They don't need the range or superiority to fight an extended air war over long distances.

The only nations with such a need are the US, UK, Japan, and Australia. Israel has also expressed interest in the F-22, however its not due to the need for a long range fighter (all of Israel's enemies are close, unfortunately). The Israelis want it because it is the best air superiority fighter in the world.

To my knowledge Britain is not working on any kind of fighter that is even in the same league as the F/A 22A Raptor. They have expressed interest in purchasing carrier capable Rafale-M jets from France if the US does not give in to demands on technology transfer and software source code for the JSF.

12 posted on 07/11/2006 12:52:10 AM PDT by AKSurprise
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To: greasepaint

Lol the F-22 is 2.5 'generations' advanced.

But I guess the major advantage of a modern western fighter is it's data link to other units. The soviets are far from running such flying networks consisting of E-3s, U2s, UAVs, JSTARS, ground units, intel etc. etc.

If you connect all these units you may go bunker Busting in Iran on an Ultra-Light, because some UCAVS in front of you took out all the threats and you just deliver a stand off weapon.


13 posted on 07/11/2006 12:56:10 AM PDT by Rummenigge
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To: AKSurprise
The US House of Representatives has recommended lifting a nine-year ban on international sales of the F-22 Raptor,

NO! Sell it to Israel and China will have it with in a year.. :\

14 posted on 07/11/2006 1:02:08 AM PDT by Echo Talon
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To: bruinbirdman
The Brits have a new bird that is almost a duplicate of the F-22 don't they?

not even close.

15 posted on 07/11/2006 1:03:14 AM PDT by Echo Talon
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To: Rummenigge

In WW1, biplane pilots used to throw bricks.
Now that must have been fun.


16 posted on 07/11/2006 1:06:48 AM PDT by Westlander (Unleash the Neutron Bomb)
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To: Echo Talon

I wouldn't worry about that so much anymore. The Israelis got thrown out of the JSF project because of their sales to China. They are not being slowly (stp by step) allowed back in on a provisional bases. I think they've learned their lesson. They sure as hell don't want to piss off the gurantor of their military supplies.


17 posted on 07/11/2006 1:09:31 AM PDT by AKSurprise
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To: Westlander

not beeing gassed or shot in the trenches was certainly 'fun'.


18 posted on 07/11/2006 1:28:00 AM PDT by Rummenigge
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To: AKSurprise

At between $150m & $183m/plane, the US probably wouldn't have to worry about other countries having access to the technology!


19 posted on 07/11/2006 2:46:33 AM PDT by Mac1
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To: AKSurprise

From 750 to less then 400 to 183
The unmannned fighters better be good.
And quick to produce.
It's like the Clinton years - avoid spending the money on hardware, which is where you should spend it in peacetime.
Instead spend in Bosnia, or now Iraq.
Fewer assets = less future capability, and shorter life formthose assets.
B52's are still around because we built a 744 of them. not 183


20 posted on 07/11/2006 3:44:46 AM PDT by Waverunner
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To: AKSurprise

I hope that our President vetoes it. Western Europe can't be trusted with critical technologies.


21 posted on 07/11/2006 4:00:09 AM PDT by familyop ("Either you're with us, or you're with the terrorists." --President Bush)
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To: Echo Talon
"NO! Sell it to Israel and China will have it with in a year.. :\"

Hey, that's right! According to the news about that, we stopped helping Israel with the American-made Arrow 2 anti-ballistic missile program! [Except that the Israelis designed it.]


22 posted on 07/11/2006 4:05:50 AM PDT by familyop ("Either you're with us, or you're with the terrorists." --President Bush)
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To: AKSurprise

Ally today - enemy tomorrow. How can you tell?


23 posted on 07/11/2006 4:07:06 AM PDT by raybbr (You think it's bad now - wait till the anchor babies start to vote.)
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To: AKSurprise
"I wouldn't worry about that so much anymore. The Israelis got thrown out of the JSF project because of their sales to China. They are not being slowly (stp by step) allowed back in on a provisional bases. I think they've learned their lesson. They sure as hell don't want to piss off the gurantor of their military supplies."

...except that Israel is buying over 100 of them and is investing billions in F-35 development.

Israeli procurement officer: F35 will replace F16
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1653107/posts
24 posted on 07/11/2006 4:18:08 AM PDT by familyop ("Either you're with us, or you're with the terrorists." --President Bush)
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To: Echo Talon
http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/missile_systems/surface_missiles/arrow/Arrow.html
25 posted on 07/11/2006 4:20:00 AM PDT by familyop ("Either you're with us, or you're with the terrorists." --President Bush)
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To: AKSurprise

There are also a few facts that didn't excite readers as much as hysterical conspiracy stories.

Israeli contractors concerned over US export request
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1427203/posts


26 posted on 07/11/2006 4:22:15 AM PDT by familyop ("Either you're with us, or you're with the terrorists." --President Bush)
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To: bruinbirdman
"The Brits have a new bird that is almost a duplicate of the F-22 don't they? What about the Universal Fighter for NATO?"

The Euro fighter?
The F-22 smokes that one.
Easily.
27 posted on 07/11/2006 4:25:49 AM PDT by Jameison
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To: piytar
"The thing was over-engineered in the tradition of good US milspec equipment. It far exceeds it's design parameters, which were considered to be ridiculous (if not impossible) when first released."


Yup.
Lockheed is indeed a great American treasure.
28 posted on 07/11/2006 4:30:30 AM PDT by Jameison
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To: AKSurprise

Didn't the Aussies, Brits and Japanese get the full versions of the F-16 and F-15 when they were state of the art? If so, we should keep the policy.


29 posted on 07/11/2006 4:33:48 AM PDT by Tribune7
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To: AKSurprise

"The only nations with such a need are the US, UK, Japan, and Australia"

I'd back sales of the Raptor to those countries.


30 posted on 07/11/2006 4:35:04 AM PDT by Jameison
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To: Tribune7

Maybe (I don't know), but the F-16 and even the F-15 didn't represent the great leap in capability that the F-22 represents today. It trains against a half-dozen F-15s (and wins, which themselves are one of the best fighters in the world today.

That said, I don't think we need massive amounts of them. I'd much prefer larger amounts of F-35s which kinda follow in the F-16 train of thought--a moderately (relatively) priced aircraft that can be fielded in decent numbers and for a variety of missions, sure it may not be best at any one particular thing, but it looks to be a better air-superiority fighter than 90% of what's going to be available, and its more than capable of suiting our needs.

Sure it's nice to have air-superiority-only aircraft available--if for no other reason than to maintain our superiority, but it's more useful to have something capable of doing the jobs that are more likely to be done (I know they added the "A" for a reason).


31 posted on 07/11/2006 5:30:43 AM PDT by Constantine XI Palaeologus ("Vicisti, Galilaee")
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