Window on Islam. Renowned scholar weighs in on religion, politics, extremism and war

Dallas News via Islam Daily.net ^ | 7/11/06 | Dr. Bernard Lewis

[Valin]

Bernard Lewis is arguably the most important living scholar of Islam in the West. Author of more than two dozen books, the retired Princeton professor, who turned 90 earlier this year, has long been an adviser to governments and policymakers seeking to understand the intricacies of Islam and its relationship to the Western world.

[Valin]

Shameless Ping

[MiHeat]

Shameless Ping? What is meant by that???

[johnny7]

“We seem to be in the mode of Chamberlain and Munich rather than of Churchill.”

I'm no esteemed scholar... but johnny7's been thinkin' that since we cut-and-run in Vietnam.

[agere_contra]

The war is against Wahhabists as Professor Lewis says: - but the trouble is that it's hard to be a Koranic literalist and be anything other than a fanatic.

Islam gravitates towards its Wahhabist-in-all-but-name nutjobs, whereas Christianity specifically curtails the actions of any crazed killers in its midst.

[Valin]

Islam gravitates towards its Wahhabist-in-all-but-name nutjobs

Really? Then why don't we see more examples of terrorism?

[river rat]

I'm convinced the militant Islamists are waiting for another spineless Democrat President and Democrat majority in Congress...

With the former Democrat President Clinton -- they conducted several operations and murdered scores of Americans --- hundreds if you don't believe that 747 went down because of a spark in an empty fuel tank.
Clinton was impotent - did nothing of significance.

Clinton experimented with Mission Creep in Somalia, mismanaged in a criminal manner touched off a conflict and then retreated in shame. This emboldened the bastards to plan 9/11.

Then they snookered the stupid bastard Clinton to fight the Serbs for the Muslim "ethnic Albanians" who attempted a land grab in Kosovo...and succeeded.

Clinton drew nary a drop of Islamist blood...
The Rangers got their share - in spite of Clinton's attempt to get them killed.

Well - they pulled the same crap with President Bush..
They came over and knocked down two buildings and damaged a third..
In reply, President Bush ordered the take down of Two Islamist harboring countries (Afghanistan & Iraq) and scared the third (Lybia) into compliance and convinced the forth (Pakistan) to pretend they're our ally.

I'm convinced the Islamist lunatics are smart enough to know to keep their distance from America - until another spineless Democrat is in power again...

Semper Fi

[Lewite]

A good article on Islam-Mecca-The Whore of Babylon can be found at yourarmstoisrael.org , select "sermon notes" and pull up "The Final End Time Beast". Print it and save for future reference.

[ml/nj]

Previously discussed here

ML/NJ

[Dark Skies]

Then why don't we see more examples of terrorism?

Here's a link to a list of terrorist incidents from the State Department...there have been quite a few.

Significant Terrorist Incidents, 1961-2003: A Brief Chronology

[Dark Skies]

BTW...there are incidents on that list that are unrelated to islam. I refer you to the islamic-related ones only.

[CaptObe]

Shameless and predictable. Same ol, same ol!

[GarySpFc]

Ping

[Maceman]

I beg your pardon?

[thoughtomator]

What, there's not enough examples of Islamic terrorism for you? It's only a constant drumbeat going on for 1400 years now...

[Tolik]

Bernard Lewis: Window on Islam

Renowned scholar weighs in on religion, politics, extremism and war

• On misunderstanding the concept of Islam
• On Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad
• On the prospects for democracy in the Islamic world
• On fighting the war on terror
• On Wahhabism
• On the importance of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict
• On the resolve of the West  (!!!)

Read the Dallas News article (summary/excerpts) here or the original (much longer) transcript of Bernard Lewis speech at The Pew Forum on April 27, 2006: Islam and the West: A Conversation with Bernard Lewis

VERY Interesting!

This ping list is not author-specific for articles I'd like to share. Some for the perfect moral clarity, some for provocative thoughts; or simply interesting articles I'd hate to miss myself. (I don't have to agree with the author all 100% to feel the need to share an article.) I will try not to abuse the ping list and not to annoy you too much, but on some days there is more of the good stuff that is worthy of attention. You can see the list of articles I pinged to lately  on  my page.
You are welcome in or out, just freepmail me (and note which PING list you are talking about). Besides this one, I keep 2 separate PING lists for my favorite authors Victor Davis Hanson and Orson Scott Card.  

[Tolik]

see post # 16

[FreedomPoster]

"In [the Islamic] world, religion embraces far more than it does in the Christian or post-Christian world. We are accustomed to talking of church and state and a whole series of pairs of words that go with them – lay and ecclesiastical, secular and religious, spiritual and temporal and so on. These pairs of words simply do not exist in classical Islamic terminology because the dichotomy that these words express is unknown."

This is a fundamental problem in trying to assimilate Islamics into becoming acceptable to the West.

[GOPJ]

On fighting the war on terror

I am familiar with this slogan. I feel that while we are indeed engaged in a war against terror, it is inadequate and even misleading. If Churchill had informed the country in 1940, "We are engaged in a war against bomber aircraft and submarines," that would have been an accurate statement but not a very helpful one. To say we are engaged in a war against terror is of the same order.

Terror is a tactic. It's a method of waging war. It is not a cause, it is not an adversary, it is not anything that one can identify as an opponent, and I think we need to be more specific in fighting a war. It's useful to know who the enemy is.

On Wahhabism

Ping.

[shield]

bttt

[SJackson]

If you'd like to be on this middle east/political ping list, please FR mail me.

Articles on Israel can also be found by clicking on the Topic or Keyword Israel.

..................

[Tolik]

Allow me to get in-between here.

Islam has a problem and we have a problem with Islam. Jihadism (Islamo-fascism, Wahhabism, Salafism, or any other name for the radical "irreconcilable wing" of Islam) draws from within traditions of Islam, and Jihadists claim that they are the only good Muslims. It does not have to be so. There are billion plus Muslims in the world, and while 10% of radicals would make an enormous number, still bigger number of Muslims goes about their daily lives without being involved in Jihad against the West.

We have a choice: to flatly state that ALL this billion is our enemy and nothing we can do but wipe them out starting with nuking the Mecca and Medina, or find a smarter way to deal with the problem, like killing out the Jihadists without killing out everybody else. (That millennia old "divide and conquer" sound cynical but is just about right). As we see in Afghanistan and Iraq we do have Muslim allies helping us (for whatever their own reason) to do just that. We still might fail and then see the choice number 1, but it is a terrible choice, and we have a lot of progress in the choice number 2.

We need more Muslims allies. How do we get them? My answer: by being a strong horse. We need to be unapologetic on the military and ideological fronts. We are good in first and suck in second. But this is a long fight, with enemies of different shades, including our own leftists/appeasers. We just need a bit more patience and steadfastness. They can not win: we are a constructive force - they are only destructive. They can have small success here and there, but not in the long run. We are soft as long as the life is good. If they will make our life miserable, they will be the first to know.

[Dark Skies]

Islam has a problem and we have a problem with Islam. Jihadism (Islamo-fascism, Wahhabism, Salafism, or any other name for the radical "irreconcilable wing" of Islam) draws from within traditions of Islam, and Jihadists claim that they are the only good Muslims. It does not have to be so. There are billion plus Muslims in the world, and while 10% of radicals would make an enormous number, still bigger number of Muslims goes about their daily lives without being involved in Jihad against the West.

First, let me say that you make an excellent argument and in many ways I agree with your overall position.

However, where I find a possible (let me repeat possible problem) is in your conclusion that the non-jihadi, non-wahhabi, non-salafist muslims don't share the dream of a world muslim caliphate. Regarding the sharing of muslim dreams by radical and moderate alike, we simply don't know where to draw the line (and my guess is that neither do the muslims).

Having posed that rhetorical question, I must say that I surely don't have the answers. And I don't think I am alone in that.

Just last week, Tony Blair spoke in the House of Commons of his frustration with the muslim community's failure to help in resolving the issues of assimilation (and he was roundly criticized by prominent muslims like Sir Iqbal Sacranie for his statements).

To come to a bottom line, I think what I am saying is that there is no clear consensus as to a solution or, even, to the nature of the problem. Will making muslim friends around the world help us resolve this problem with islam...or, in the end, is that an act of appeasement. Will (indeed, can) muslims ever take sides with non-muslims over muslims regarding matter of assimilation and tolerance and peaceful co-existence? I wish I knew.

Until we find out, we in the west will walk a fine line.

[<1/1,000,000th%]

Good post!

[5050 no line]

Interesting points all.

On the matter of active non-assimilation of Muslims into communities in which they reside.

I think the practice is historical. Following the initial break out of Islam from its cradle in the Arabian peninsula into the then civilised world, and the spread of the faith by conquest, the conduct of the conquerers is quite interesting.

Most armies of conquest and occupation in history will settle in the conquered countries, take land, property and local women, and are assimilated into the population. The thrust of the conquest often dies out.

Islam did not do this but ensured that the occupiers formed their own Islamic enclaves within a conquered country, where Islamic conduct and culture were carefully preserved. They usually left existing administrative structures in place and just assumed oversight of them, using them to rule through and collect taxes via. (The Dhimmi tax or jizya)

Local merchants and those seeking advancement in the conquered countries had to make approaches to the Muslims for sanction and favours. They found that support of, or conversion to, Islam facilitated this process.

The conduct of Muslims in the 'Dar al-Harb' remains the same to this day.

The ploy is supported by their religious writings - for instance the well known exhortation not to take Jews and Christian as friends is just the most obvious, further study will turn up many more. This was intended to keep the Muslim faith 'pure'.

So friends, do not expect Muslims to become part of our democratic society any time soon. It would not be an overstatement to say such a course is, in fact, prohibited both by their history and their creed.

On the other hand, one could see the present process of Islamic immigration to the West as an unannounced, but active, continuation of the process, to first regain the Caliphate, and then to convert the whole World to become the 'Dar al-Islam' under the yoke of Islam. Heads up.

[BuglerTex]

Another good find, V

[Dark Skies]

Very well put! Thx.

[Tolik]

Let me pull a clinton here. I did not make a conclusion that non-jihadi muslims don't share the dream of a world muslim caliphate. They might. I don't want to be a thought police. What matters is actions. If the only thing Hitler did is to dream about Jews annihilation and throw slurs - you know, I can live with that.

The point is - I don't care what they think. The observable fact is that for the vast majority of muslims Jihad is not in the daily lives. It is good. They sit on the fence and don't rally against jihadists. It is bad and wrong. But it is not a smart policy for us to go postal and throw nukes at them just for that. It is also counterproductive to treat 1 billion people as one and the same. We can do smarter than that.

We should be unyielding and unforgiving against jihadists/Wahhabists, and we can exercise discretion with others. On assimilation and loyalty: also very strict and firm. We better make sure that we are safe inside. It will allow us to be more flexible outside. I see nothing wrong in imposing loyalty test and deport all unassimilated from the West. Also, on the question who is a good muslim and who is a bad muslim. It is up to them to decide. But they need to be told in no uncertain terms that we will accept only one answer: a peaceful one.

BTW, there is an interesting paradox here. Our leftists-appeasers in their denial of the existence of this war, actually embolden our enemies into taking reckless steps, that CAN hurt us so much that nukes will become an option.

[Dark Skies]

Again, your comment is interesting and oblique to my way of thinking...which isn't a bad thing.

You said...

The observable fact is that for the vast majority of muslims Jihad is not in the daily lives.

Of course, that is hard to disagree with except that the question arises as to how "observable" will the support for jihad be.

I certainly think we are picking nits and fine nits they are...but I repeat, where is the line to be drawn in the muslim mind. How can moderate muslims demonstrate to those of us who fear them that they seek a world in which they are tolerant and tolerated. How can we non-muslims know they are (toward us) as they ask us to be toward them...tolerant, forgiving, merciful...brotherly.

As a Christian, I do not doubt that our G-d loves muslims. Yet, as a human, I have serious doubts that the islamic allah and his followers love me and my people.

My Christian and Jewish ancestors are still pigs and monkeys in Saudi Arabia (obviously they know my Uncle Dave and Aunt Rachel)...so, obviously, the onus is not on the west.

The west doesn't harbor the religion of hate knowingly. It has snuck in unawares. The onus is on islam.

[Valin]

Islam has a problem and we have a problem with Islam. Jihadism (Islamo-fascism, Wahhabism, Salafism, or any other name for the radical "irreconcilable wing" of Islam) draws from within traditions of Islam, and Jihadists claim that they are the only good Muslims. It does not have to be so. There are billion plus Muslims in the world, and while 10% of radicals would make an enormous number, still bigger number of Muslims goes about their daily lives without being involved in Jihad against the West.

"Wahhabism is about as central to Islam as, shall we say, the Ku Klux Klan to Christianity. It originated in Najd, what is now part of Saudi Arabia, in the 18th century. It was a reaction to the general perception of that time that things were going wrong."
Dr Benard Lewis

We have a choice: to flatly state that ALL this billion is our enemy and nothing we can do but wipe them out starting with nuking the Mecca and Medina, or find a smarter way to deal with the problem, like killing out the Jihadists without killing out everybody else.

Thank you! In all these discussions, this is basically my point.

[Valin]

Yet, as a human, I have serious doubts that the islamic allah and his followers love me and my people.

I've known and worked with Muslims, some a great folks some...well let's just say they live in an alternative universe and leave it at that.

"Anyone who judges a man by the group is a peawit".
Sgt. Kilrain says Michael Shaara's The Killer Angels




My Christian and Jewish ancestors are still pigs and monkeys in Saudi Arabia


"Wahhabism is about as central to Islam as, shall we say, the Ku Klux Klan to Christianity. It originated in Najd, what is now part of Saudi Arabia, in the 18th century. It was a reaction to the general perception of that time that things were going wrong."
Dr Benard Lewis

[Tolik]

Thank you for the interesting discussion. There is not much disagreement here. But just for fun, let's have one more splitting hair round.

...How can moderate muslims demonstrate to those of us who fear them that they seek a world in which they are tolerant and tolerated. How can we non-muslims know they are (toward us) as they ask us to be toward them...tolerant, forgiving, merciful...brotherly.

...The west doesn't harbor the religion of hate knowingly. It has snuck in unawares. The onus is on islam.

The onus is indeed on Islam. It is their internal matter that was exported to become the world's problem. But unless we end up wiping them out, the solution is still theirs.

We can help by killing out the Jihadists and by clearly stating our expectations. Frankly, I don't care about "brotherly and merciful", but non-aggressive externally and non-discriminatory internally are the must. From our side no multicultural tolerance to their intolerance. No looking away from their hate speech. No appeasement! Remove all Wahhabi and Wahhabi financed organization from the West. No excuses and lowering expectations. No accepting the whining that its somebody else fault. For ourselves: forget about quick fixes, but be ready for extended, multigenerational effort to confront their aggression and intolerance. When they see a strong horse and no paper tiger does not matter who is in office, they will abandon Jihadist ways

 

...How can moderate muslims demonstrate to those of us who fear them that they seek a world in which they are tolerant and tolerated. How can we non-muslims know they are (toward us) as they ask us to be toward them...tolerant, forgiving, merciful...brotherly.

...The west doesn't harbor the religion of hate knowingly. It has snuck in unawares. The onus is on islam.

[Dark Skies]

Thx for the excellent post. We are singing the same tune.

I don't have a problem with islam as long as it doesn't preach and act out violence and treason, behave like a cult, and victimize others (muslims and non-muslim alike), etc.

In most cases, I believe islam can be forced to adapt to modernity by making it adapt to legal systems in the modern world. However, I suspect there are some aspects (both Sunni and Shia) that will not "go gentle into that good night."

[Dark Skies]

Wahhabism is about as central to Islam as, shall we say, the Ku Klux Klan to Christianity.

Apples and oranges...and specious reason there. Bernard Lewis is Jewish and, I would suggest, not an authority on the spirituality of Christianity (which is its operative aspect). There is NO connection between Christianity and the KKK but the borrowing of symbols by the KKK in hopes of whitewashing its guilt.

[Valin]

the solution is still theirs

Agree, and this is what the President is talking about when he says this will be a long war. To support those who do want to bring Islam into the modern world is (IMO) the real reason we went into Iraq. Will this work out? I don't know as I misplaced my crystal ball the other day...BUT I am hopeful, and those here who scream and holler "Nuke Mecca" (weather they know it or not) are helping the terrorist.

[Valin]

There is NO connection between Christianity and the KKK but the borrowing of symbols by the KKK in hopes of whitewashing its guilt.

That is basically Dr. Lewis's point about Wahhabism. With out the oil money they would be just another minor sect
Note: I am NOT saying everything is sweetness and light inside Islam. (IMO) What we are seeing is a civil war inside Islam and we've been dragged into it, being "The Far Enemy".

[Dark Skies]

Are Ahmadinejad and Mezbah Yazdi and the Twelvers also alien to islam? And Khomeini?

[Valin]

No. And is neither are al-Sistani, Saad Eddin Ibrahim, Mustafa Akyol, Abdel Rahman al-Rashed.

[Dark Skies]

As we have discussed before, I certainly know that all muslims are not evil...in fact the majority are just regular folks. But I also have never thought that fundamental islam (whether Shia or Sunni) is unrelated to the koran, the hadiths, and the example of the prophet.

[Valin]

But I also have never thought that fundamental islam (whether Shia or Sunni) is unrelated to the koran, the hadiths, and the example of the prophet.

I don't believe I've ever said that, if I ever have I plead my God given right to be stupid. My point is how your average Muslim lives their life, and there are schools of thought inside Islam that disagree with the Radicals.

Off Topic: Take alook at Fouad Ajami's new book "The Foreigner's Gift". I think you'll like it.

[Kay Syrah]

I just read the entire transcript today. here

I was hoping someone would post at least an excerpt. Its a good read.

[Valin]

Shameless Plug
Fouad Ajami Says US-Led Invasion of Iraq Was A Noble War
VOA ^ | 6/28/06 | Judith Latham
http://freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1662545/posts

Posted on 07/08/2006 7:05:38 PM CDT by Valin
/Shameless Plug

I HIGHLY recomend this book. One of the best things I've read in a while.