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Can N.J. afford the rising cost of teachers and cops? ^ | 07.16.06 | BOB IVRY

Posted on 07/16/2006 7:31:59 PM PDT by Coleus

We're grateful to our police officers. We count on them. We're proud of them.  Our state is going broke paying for them.  Same goes for teachers. We wish we could afford them, but we're having trouble.  We're having trouble paying for New Jersey's nearly 500,000 public employees. Especially at their current salaries and fringe benefits. Especially with New Jersey's property taxes among the steepest in the nation and rising.  Especially now that state officials have closed a $4.5 billion budget gap by raising taxes and cutting services while sidestepping the subject of how we compensate unionized public workers.  This isn't about bad guys -- crooked politicians or school superintendents with secret retirement deals.  No, police and teachers are working people. People we trust every day to prepare our children for the future. People whose job it is to step between us and harm.

But there are so many of them, and their unions keep beating town councils and school boards at the bargaining table.  If a corrupt politician dips into the town till, that's a problem. But pay every cop in town $100,000 and spring for family health benefits for every teacher and that's a path to financial ruin -- or a taxpayer revolt.

Check it out:

$100K Club -- Police officers in northeast New Jersey routinely make more than $100,000 in total pay. They are among more than 10,000 government employees in New Jersey who earn that much, according to state payroll and pension records.

New Jersey governments are awash in red ink. But from State Street to town hall, no one is tackling the biggest reason for our fiscal woes – what we pay public employees.
Focusing on police officers and teachers, we describe a system that has produced $100,000 base salaries for the rank and file, generous pensions and no-cost benefit packages – all at a time when the private sector is going in the opposite direction.
We don't blame the workers. They're paid what government employers are willing to pay them.
We blame the people who established a system that's so one-sided that local governments can't get a break. Those governments sit down to negotiate contracts with police and teachers and it's game over before it even begins. The big losers in the process – taxpayers.
The series

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Tops in cops -- Police in Bergen County are the best paid in a state that the federal Bureau of Labor Statistics says has the highest police pay in the country.

For example, Fairfax County in Virginia boasts higher household income than Bergen, but police in the Washington suburb make a lot less than police do here. The average cop in Fairfax made $75,000 in 2005, including overtime; their counterparts in Bergen made $20,000 more.   Viewed another way: The base pay for a rank-and-file patrolman in New York City tops out at $60,000 after 5½ years. Patrolmen at the top of the pay scale in Bergen County often get more than $90,000 before overtime. Contracts already in place in many towns will push base pay past $100,000 in 2008.

Overdosing on overtime -- Overtime lifts police pay well above $100,000 in even middle-income communities. Police in Butler earn base salaries $10,000 less than many of their counterparts in wealthier areas of North Jersey, but they make up for it with time-and-a-half. Their average total pay in 2005 exceeded $100,000.

Rewriting Genesis -- For police in Alpine and other towns, the week isn't seven days, but six -- four days on and two days off. The result is 17 extra days off a year, beyond holidays and vacation.

Golden years -- Ridgewood police Sgt. Paul Gilard retired on June 30, 2005. His total compensation for the year was $187,115, including a retirement payout of nearly $130,000. He'll receive an annual pension of $73,000 for the rest of his life. He's 48 years old.

Who's the boss? -- Police in northeast New Jersey often make more money than the folks who pay their salaries, a Record analysis found.

In 2004, the average income-tax filer in Bergen County earned $80,423. For the years 2003 to 2005, cops in Bergen averaged $85,028 before overtime, according to state pension records. There was greater disparity in Passaic County. Tax filers there reported average 2004 income of $54,980, while cops earned base pay of $75,064. (See "What people make" for an explanation of our analysis.)

"Property value is enhanced by good services," said Richard D. Loccke, a Hackensack attorney who represents many police union locals at the bargaining table. "There's an emotional outcry against police, and it's misplaced. Two-thirds of the tax levy is education. That has the biggest impact. Education is the 800-pound gorilla sitting in the room."

Above average

Teachers' salaries and perks have indeed grown as well, although less so than cops'. Teachers in The Record's circulation area earn an average of roughly $61,500. It usually takes teachers twice as long to reach the top of the pay scale, but once they arrive there, they, too, often make more than the average taxpayer.

Head of the class -- In Bergen alone, 1,126 teachers, or 10 percent, earned more than $90,000 in 2005-06, according to state records. In the city of Passaic, an urban district supported largely by state income-tax dollars, 158 classroom teachers topped $90,000. In Wayne, 43 teachers earned six figures. And don't forget, most teachers get summers off.

Safe and secure -- Tenured teachers in New Jersey are essentially guaranteed jobs for life.

Over the past 10 years, not one of Bergen County's 10,000 teachers has been fired via tenure hearings, the only process for involuntarily removing tenured teachers for inadequate performance.  The powerful New Jersey Education Association, the union that represents teachers in all but five New Jersey districts, has also successfully opposed performance-based merit pay.

Healthy benefits -- The NJEA has stuck to a policy that taxpayers must foot the entire bill for its members' health insurance.  "Protecting health benefits is our No. 1 priority," said George Lambert, an NJEA field representative for Region 23, which encompasses northern Bergen County. "We've been very successful. There's no district in this region where members pay for health benefits. I don't see giving that up. Ever."  Great benefits are remnants of a time when government pay was low. To make up for that, public employers offered perks like free health insurance.

Let's just say salaries have caught up, while benefits remain as generous as ever.  More than 53,000 full-time employees of the state government -- 75 percent of the total -- are enrolled in a state health insurance program that provides free coverage for them and their families, according to Thomas Vincz, spokesman for the Department of the Treasury.  More than 125,000 local employees also get free health benefits under the program, with only a few kicking in toward family coverage, he added.

Private industry nationwide provides only 9 percent of its workers with free family health coverage, a study by the Kaiser Family Foundation found. The typical private-sector worker in New Jersey chipped in $2,400 for single coverage and $6,600 for family in 2004, according to the state Chamber of Commerce.

Unions supreme

Certainly, police officers and teachers are not the only causes of escalating taxes. Runaway spending is also caused by pay-to-play, waste and corruption, as well as shoddy and in some cases overpaid management.  But cops and teachers are the most prominent public workers in our towns. They're often the most numerous. They're usually the best paid rank-and-file workers. Their unions are the most powerful in Trenton. And they take a big slice of our property tax bill.   Their union leaders are skilled and persuasive.  "We are a very successful organization. I don't shy away from that," said NJEA assistant executive director Vincent Giordano. "What differentiates the NJEA from other unions? What makes us so successful? It's our ability to engage our members and our ability to meld their professional interests and their advocacy interests into an organization they believe is functioning on behalf of all their interests."

They are also unapologetic.

"Do you work around the clock? Christmas? Thanksgiving? Is somebody going to shoot at you?" said Michael J. Madonna, president of the New Jersey State Policemen's Benevolent Association. "When you leave to go to work you don't know if you're coming home. I don't want to be corny, but it's a fact. It's just what the job entails. The stress of the job."  Indeed, two officers were shot, one critically wounded, Thursday during a routine traffic stop in Egg Harbor Township.  Towns have found ways to pay for cops and teachers. Sometimes it's other workers who bear the brunt. Wayne, for example, has eliminated 26 positions in the past 12 years.  Usually, however, it's the taxpayer who gets the short end. Rather than cut services, most municipalities raise taxes. In the 93 towns of The Record's circulation area, property taxes surged 58 percent between 1995 and 2005. That's nearly twice the inflation rate for the New York metro area.

The state, too, has hit upon a formula of paying employees more and raising taxes to match. Governor Corzine's "deficit-closing" budget calls for a 9 percent spending hike partially funded by a rise in the sales tax to 7 percent from 6 percent.  To be fair, Corzine's budget increase is due in part to his commitment to replenish the pension fund, which former governors such as Richard Codey, James E. McGreevey and Christie Whitman didn't do in a meaningful way. Their budgets essentially saddled today's taxpayers with the tab for past promises to public employees.  In a poll conducted by The Record for this story, three out of four North Jersey residents said property taxes were too high. Property taxes were also cited as the single most important problem facing the state.  Lawmakers may be hearing that. This summer the Legislature is supposed to meet in special session to tackle property tax reform.

But some possible solutions remain taboo. Woe unto the legislator who so much as suggests that unionized government workers accept givebacks or otherwise help the state deal with its budget problems. When Sen. Stephen M. Sweeney, D-Gloucester County, proposed just that last month, he was accused of demagoguery -- by members of his own party.  Sweeney said, however, he expects that many of the same politicians who bashed him will be forced by circumstances to come around. He's pushing for the Legislature to discuss employee compensation at the special session this summer.  "A lot of my legislative colleagues agree with me but don't want to go through the nonsense I'm going through," Sweeney said. "But guess what? I'm still standing, still pushing, and you'll see a lot more legislators coming over to my way of thinking because taxpayers are demanding it."  Many factors pump up the state budget, but any attempt to rein in costs without addressing compensation is likely to fail.  "Public employee unions are a special breed that don't give up anything willingly, and anyone who asks them to becomes an instant pariah," said Ramsey Mayor Richard Muti.

Spiral of blame

How did we get to this point? Can we blame the workers? They're paid what government employers are willing to pay them. Can we blame the unions? They're doing what unions do -- protecting and promoting the interests of their members.  Trenton lawmakers aren't shy about pointing a finger. Despite flat or declining state aid to municipalities, they blame local officials.  Said Codey, a West Orange Democrat who's the Senate president: "Has the Legislature ever increased property taxes? I never voted to raise property taxes. I'm not a school board member. I'm not a mayor."  Agreed Sen. Robert Singer, R-Lakewood: "Mayors are trying to find any way they can to blame somebody else for rising property taxes."

It's true that mayors and council members have not held the line against growing compensation. Due to inexperience, lack of nerve or a genuine belief that public employee raises are more important than keeping taxes low, they haven't stuck together in the same way their union adversaries have. They've failed to offer a credible counterweight to union strength.  "The easiest thing to do in municipal government is to agree with all the loud groups and you'll be reelected and your taxes will continue to skyrocket," said Emerson Mayor Steve Setteducati.  But in the Record poll, 41 percent of respondents blamed the state for their swelling tax bills, making the governor and state lawmakers the top-ranked villains.  There's wisdom in their choice. State officials have made sure that in the delicate balance of contract negotiations, the police and teachers unions have a thumb on the scale.  State officials are the ones who established the Public Employment Relations Commission -- nicknamed PERC -- and gave police the right to settle contracts by binding arbitration, which routinely awards cops annual base-pay raises of 4 percent.

They're the ones who then enacted the "cap law," which limits the percentage municipal budgets can increase every year -- 2.5 percent, or 3.5 percent if a town council passes a special ordinance -- while the cost of health benefits grew 13.3 percent last year, according to the state Chamber of Commerce.  They're the ones who stripped school boards of the right to impose their last best offer on teachers in the event of a deadlock in contract negotiations, robbing taxpayers of an important negotiating tool without requiring anything from teachers in return.  They're the ones who created the State Health Benefits Program, which pays every cent of the health insurance for more than half the workers in the plan.  They're the ones who established a pension system that paid out $4.2 billion in benefits last year, according to the Division of Pension and Benefits -- up from $2.5 billion in 2000 and $1.8 billion in 1996 -- and then approved budget after budget that failed to fund those pensions. They're the ones who in the past three years received $951,915 in campaign contributions from the NJEA, $329,425 from state trooper organizations and $218,495 from the state PBA.

So we have unions that look out for teachers and police and we have a Legislature that looks out for teachers and police and we have nobody with any real clout looking out for the taxpayer, who is now shelling out an additional penny in sales tax -- a 17 percent increase -- on top of a hefty bump in property taxes.  Corzine, in his somber budget address in March, called for non-unionized state workers to skip their cost-of-living salary increases this year, a cutback the Legislature approved. He also wanted non-union workers, most of them supervisors, to make a 10 percent contribution toward their benefits. Lawmakers didn't go along with that.  State Treasurer Bradley Abelow said those provisions were a foreshadowing of topics the Corzine administration planned to discuss with union negotiators when bargaining begins, as soon as this fall, for new contracts. Current contracts are due to expire in June 2007.  "The unions know full well the implications as far as how we'd be thinking going into upcoming contract talks," Abelow said. "We'll be talking about salaries, pension reform and a series of issues concerning health care."

By law, pensions can't be cut, Abelow said, and until bargaining begins, "not much can be done about salaries." He said he hopes the Legislature, in its special session this summer, passes laws against pension sweetening and other abuses.  "We hope they take a look at things they didn't want to tackle this spring," he said.  In the meantime, Corzine maintains a close relationship with the unions his treasurer says will be asked to make concessions in a few months. The governor's budget was so well-received by the public unions that three of them -- the NJEA, the Communications Workers of America and the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees, or AFSCME -- all chipped in to run a barrage of radio and TV commercials and a direct-mail campaign in support of its passage.

"It's unprecedented for the three unions to work so closely together, and the reason we're doing that is we all share the same concerns," said CWA spokesman Bob Master.  When members of public unions rallied in Trenton on June 19 in favor of the budget and its sales tax hike, Corzine told the gathering, "I will fight for you."  Sweeney, the business representative for an 800-member ironworkers union as well as a state senator, said that instead of firing up the crowd, Corzine should have been meeting with union leaders and asking them for concessions -- now.  "Governor Corzine was wrong for at least not asking them to come back to the table and be part of the solution," Sweeney said. "They say budget time is not the right time to do that, but of course it's the right time to do it. That's when we're dealing with finances."  Sweeney said there is plenty the Legislature can do in its summer session, such as raise the state employee retirement age to 60 from 55, increase medical co-pays for new hires and reduce the number of holidays for state workers.  "I told the unions they're going to lose those benefits," Sweeney said. "The Legislature and the unions created this mess together, so we should fix it together.  "I'm a union guy," Sweeney added. "A friend can tell you the truth."

No numbers

How much do the cops and teachers in your town make? Don't stress if you're clueless. You're in good company.  In the Record poll, the majority of 1,100 registered voters guessed way low. Just one in three came even close to what experienced cops are paid in their town.

Public vs. private

Police officers in northeast New Jersey typically outearn other residents; teachers as a rule make less, but they usually work 10 months.

  Bergen Passaic
Taxpayer wages1: $80,423 $54,980
Base police pay2: $85,028 $75,064
Teacher salaries3: $62,707 $60,011

1 Wage earnings from 2002 income reported to the IRS, adjusted to 2004 dollars.

2 Three-year average (2003-2005) from New Jersey pension system.

3 Full-time teachers and other certified education staff, not including principals or other administrators, from the state Department of Education.

For teachers, the results were even more striking. While correctly noting that teachers don't make as much as cops, almost all respondents said a fully experienced classroom teacher earns less than $60,000. In fact, a teacher with a master's degree at the top of the pay scale typically makes in excess of $80,000.  There's good reason for the discrepancy. It's not as if information on what public-sector employees make is readily available -- even though the law specifically says it should be.  The Record requested computerized payroll records from every town and school board in the 93 municipalities that make up the paper's circulation area. We received them from fewer than 20 percent.  Some towns balked at reporters' requests for electronic access, saying they kept the payroll records on paper. But when reporters visited a handful of municipal offices to take a look at them, the records weren't available. Other towns said they didn't have the information, that it was in the hands of contractors who process their payroll.

Even when the information is at hand, it's often confusing, if not misleading. Town councils pass "salary ordinances" that are written with a wide range, even though the person actually in the job makes the maximum. Contracts typically calling for a 4 percent annual raise for police also provide new patrolmen with scheduled salary adjustments, known as "horizontal increases," that can triple a rookie's pay in five years. Longevity -- derided by critics as the "breathing bonus" -- can add 10 percent or more to the pay scale for senior employees, but is often detailed separately from salary scales.  "The public has been deceived," said Washington Township Mayor Rudy Wenzel. "A patrolman who makes an $85,000 salary really makes $97,000 with all the add-ons."

It's no better in Trenton. Want to know what a state worker gets paid? The information is kept in two separate places, requiring two separate document requests. The state personnel department keeps payroll records, but overtime records are stored over at Treasury, which charged this newspaper $977 for the database.  What we found: Over the past three years, the state paid out more than $600 million in overtime.  Lacking this most basic payroll information, many of us haven't been able to make the connection between the checks we write to Town Hall and the extraordinary compensation public employees receive.

Uneven playing field

Local officials say they have little chance at the bargaining table to halt mushrooming costs. Police and teachers unions mine decades of institutional memory and peruse the details of recent and ongoing contract talks statewide. The PBA calls upon attorneys like Richard Loccke, who's compiled an impressive winning streak, while the NJEA has specially trained and battle-hardened field representatives available on a phone call's notice.  By contrast, town council and school board members turn over every three or four years. Many have little or no experience hammering out labor contracts. Some worry the public may think they're being too tough. Once the signs reading "Save Our Cops" or "Support Our Teachers" start sprouting on their neighbors' lawns, their resolve softens.

"If the Legislature can't stand up to the teachers union, what hope can a little local board have against them?" said Mark Bombace, president of the Ridgewood school board.  Unions know the advantage of negotiating with 566 separate towns and 593 different school districts around the state. The results are contracts so generous they would have been inconceivable a generation ago. So the unions champion home rule and squelch any talk of regionalization. Two years ago, when Emerson and Westwood talked about combining police forces, PBA members from around the region packed meetings to denounce the plan. The towns caved.

"The PBA made the argument that residents would see strange faces in the police cars," said Westwood Mayor Thomas Wanner. "Well, there are many residents that don't know the faces of the police force like they used to. They're too busy working, trying to pay property taxes, to get to know their police officers."  Binding arbitration hands the advantage to the police unions. Mayors, council members and labor attorneys hired by municipalities know that arbitrators are likely to award raises well above municipal spending caps and the rate of inflation. It's considered a victory when they can get the police union to settle at the negotiating table and thereby avoid arbitration, which can add $50,000 or more to their legal fees.  Arbitration also skews salaries for other public employees, said Wayne Mayor Scott Rumana.

"If you know the going rate [for police raises] is 4 or 4¼ percent, and you're fighting to get it below 4 percent, you're not going to turn around to the other unions and get them to agree to a 1 percent raise," Rumana said. "With the tools we're stuck with, we do our best."  Arbitration also encourages unions to engage in a practice known as "whipsawing" -- persuading one town to agree to a higher pay rate and then arguing to an arbitrator that a neighboring town has an obligation to pay equivalently.  "The whole negotiating process is slanted toward the upward movement of salaries," said Sen. Gerald Cardinale, R-Demarest.

Clout with lawmakers

It's not difficult to root out the source of union power. The NJEA, for instance, has nearly 200,000 members. According to its own figures, 93 percent of them voted in 2004. So did their families. And their friends.  The NJEA has parlayed its sway with the Legislature into a virtual monopoly on education policy. In many cases, that's a good thing. In some cases, it involves protecting the union more than it involves protecting quality education. The most obvious cases are its resistance to merit pay and its defense of tenure job-protection rights, instituted in 1909.  "Tenure protects the bad and the mediocre. It protects the good, but they don't need protection," said Joseph R. Morano, an attorney with the Lyndhurst firm Scarinci & Hollenbeck who represents school districts.  Like the police, teachers play one town against the other. They can pressure a school board to relent on important issues like health benefits by playing on trustees' concerns about competitiveness.

"If you're looking for a job, where are you going to go? Not to the district that makes you pay," said Robert Baxer, a former Ramsey school trustee. "No district wants to be the first one that does it because they'll be losing out on hiring the best and brightest teachers coming in. And it would be impossible to get experienced teachers from another district."  If municipal officials feel any resentment over the untouchable status of public employees, most of them don't talk about it. They fear a backlash -- their words may come back to haunt them in an upcoming negotiation or election. Residents, too, hesitate to criticize teachers and police.  "What person is going to get up at a public meeting and say, 'Mr. Mayor, you're wise for doing that' when you have the chief of police saying he doesn't want to do that?" asked Alfred Murphy Jr., former mayor, councilman and school board member in Hillsdale. "Same with teachers. I had teachers come in with black armbands because we let people go. And that intimidates some people. Getting tough will cost you because the police and teachers are very effective at playing to the audience, the public."

TOPICS: Culture/Society; Government; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections; US: New Jersey
KEYWORDS: civilservants; collectivebargaining; donutwatch; govwatch; laborunions; leo; newjersey; nj; payroll; police; propertytaxes; publicpayroll; teachers; unions

1 posted on 07/16/2006 7:32:02 PM PDT by Coleus
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To: Coleus

Don't care. Don't care. NSF = NSF. Deadbeats with attitude, wow...

2 posted on 07/16/2006 7:36:46 PM PDT by kcar
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To: Coleus

...another example of the ole New Jersey political shell game. Blame somebody but don't look at corruption, don't look at politicians pulling in double and triple retirements, don't look at the same politico's families doing the same.
Don't look at corrupt or disfunctional "programs" designed to fail so more funds are allotted "to fix" said bogus programs
Watch me point my finger..look at that..*tsk tsk*_____ now check your wallet


3 posted on 07/16/2006 7:41:34 PM PDT by Doogle (USAF...8th TFW...Ubon Thailand...408thMMS..."69"...Night Line Delivery...AMMO!!)
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To: Coleus
What is the difference between a taxidermist and a tax collector?

The taxidermist takes only your skin.

4 posted on 07/16/2006 7:45:39 PM PDT by HuntsvilleTxVeteran ("Remember the Alamo, Goliad and WACO, It is Time for a new San Jacinto")
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To: Coleus
He'll receive an annual pension of $73,000 for the rest of his life. He's 48 years old.


5 posted on 07/16/2006 7:49:27 PM PDT by Extremely Extreme Extremist
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To: Coleus
• Golden years -- Ridgewood police Sgt. Paul Gilard retired on June 30, 2005. His total compensation for the year was $187,115, including a retirement payout of nearly $130,000. He'll receive an annual pension of $73,000 for the rest of his life. He's 48 years old.

What the he!! is a retirement payout? They forgot to mention full medical.

6 posted on 07/16/2006 7:55:32 PM PDT by ncountylee (Dead terrorists smell like victory)
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To: Coleus
I'm actually shocked that any newspaper would have gone through the effort and research needed to publish an article like this. It's dead on accurate about the problems that New Jersey (and many other blue states) face - spiraling pension and benefits costs that public employee unions refuse to agree to do anything about.

New Jersey taxpayers continue to get fleeced by so-called "property tax reform". Instead of the money going directly into the pockets of those actually paying property taxes, most of it goes directly to school districts, which use it to pay more teachers more money, which puts more money in the coffers of the NJ NEA, which leads to more lobbying of Trenton to give more money to more teachers.

At some point, the citizens of New Jersey should be saying enough is enough and reverse this madness. The smart people are already voting with their feet and leaving the state. Unfortunately, some bring their liberal attitudes to red states and are starting to repeat the cycle.
7 posted on 07/16/2006 7:55:45 PM PDT by conservative in nyc
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To: conservative in nyc

the problem in jersey is that it's the 3rd-smallest state with over 610 school districts, 29 with no schools, and about 575 municipalities. NJ residents love local control and having control over their own school districts. In addition to each town having a small police department with a chief and other high-ranking officers you also have a sheriff's department in each county. Then you have about 2-dozen authorities and commissions with a big payroll and the ability to bond without voter approval! About 20% of the workers in NJ are public employees! It all adds up.

8 posted on 07/16/2006 8:04:14 PM PDT by Coleus (I Support Research using the Ethical, Effective and Moral use of stem cells: non-embryonic "adult")
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To: Coleus

We need state laws in every state that would limit all civil pensions to no more than the median (1/2 higher, 1/2 lower) pension of taxpayers in the state. No taxpayer should have to pay taxes for civil servants to retire with better benefits than the taxpayers can ever obtain.

Salaries can be a little harder to have across the board limits because wages need to follow the markets for comparable work and there could be some very large public service positions that could command a wage that is more than the average wage in the area.

The cases shown in this article suggest a combination of corruption, union clout and simply local authorities not doing due-diligence in countering wage requests with information from other jurisdictions.

9 posted on 07/16/2006 8:04:38 PM PDT by Wuli
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To: conservative in nyc

I pay almost $6000/yr property tax and I don't even own the land.. I live in a townhouse.. this state LOVES to stick it to us.

10 posted on 07/16/2006 8:05:58 PM PDT by divine_moment_of_facts ("Liberals see what they believe... Conservatives believe what they see")
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To: Tired of Taxes

NJ is your neck of the woods, isn't it?

A hundred grand for a police officer does not sound unreasonable to me. My husband earns less than that but he doesn't do a job that requires him to put his life on the line every time he walks out the door or that requires him to work all kinds of odd hours and holidays. I'm sure there are many other areas of waste and corruption that could be addressed.

11 posted on 07/16/2006 8:08:59 PM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Coleus

New Jerseyeans deserves exactly what they elect. I only wish a wall could be built to keep them in so they don't start fleeing to Pennsylvania with their same Democrat voting habits. They fouled their own nest and they should be forced to stay there. You know, like Castro keeps his population locked in.

12 posted on 07/16/2006 8:12:18 PM PDT by Lancey Howard
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To: divine_moment_of_facts
I pay almost $6000/yr property tax and I don't even own the land.. I live in a townhouse.. this state LOVES to stick it to us.

6 Grand! Wow! I pay $3,000 for a house on 9 acres in Maryland and I thought I was getting stuck. You need to bail out, Hoss.

13 posted on 07/16/2006 8:14:58 PM PDT by SnuffaBolshevik
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To: ncountylee

Just leave ...

14 posted on 07/16/2006 8:26:30 PM PDT by TexGuy
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To: divine_moment_of_facts

Don't look at it as a $6000/yr property tax on your townhouse - - look at it as taking five $100 bills on the first day of each and every month and then tearing them up and flushing them down your toilet. Then look at that big chunk of your paycheck disappearing into thin air. Then remember that in New Jersey, every $100 you spend costs you an ADDITIONAL seven dollars thanks to the 7% sales tax.

There. Feel better now?

15 posted on 07/16/2006 8:37:52 PM PDT by Lancey Howard
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To: conservative in nyc
New Jersey taxpayers continue to get fleeced by so-called "property tax reform". Instead of the money going directly into the pockets of those actually paying property taxes, most of it goes directly to school districts...after a stop in Trenton where it's massaged by a bunch of useless bureaucrats who come up with formulae for distributing it, plans for its effective use, systems to pay it out, monitoring programs to make sure it's paid, etc etc - the state could save a billion or so just by eliminating all those hands in the middle and allowing taxpayers to determine how their money could be used locally if needed but since most of those middlemen are cronies and relatives of the politicos, we'll never see it......
16 posted on 07/16/2006 8:41:00 PM PDT by Intolerant in NJ
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To: TexGuy

When cops earn $100,000/yr are they still illiterate?

17 posted on 07/16/2006 8:44:59 PM PDT by ClaireSolt (.)
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To: TexGuy

When cops earn $100,000/yr are they still illiterate?
I won't ask the same about the teachers. I know the answer to that,

18 posted on 07/16/2006 8:45:50 PM PDT by ClaireSolt (.)
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To: Coleus

I'll go for option 2, show me the taxpayer revolt. I'm in NYS and I'm primed.

19 posted on 07/16/2006 8:49:45 PM PDT by printhead
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To: Coleus

Got my quarterly property tax in the mail Saturday.

64% of my 5 digit property tax goes to the Board of Education.

20 posted on 07/16/2006 8:51:57 PM PDT by Calpernia (
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To: metmom
A hundred grand for a police officer does not sound unreasonable to me. My husband earns less than that but he doesn't do a job that requires him to put his life on the line every time he walks out the door or that requires him to work all kinds of odd hours and holidays. I'm sure there are many other areas of waste and corruption that could be addressed."""

Hmmm. I have a hunch that either you or your husband - maybe both - are government employees (or government retirees). Am I right?

21 posted on 07/16/2006 8:55:37 PM PDT by churchillbuff
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To: Lancey Howard
Problem is, those that do the electing don't pay property or sales tax.

22 posted on 07/16/2006 8:55:56 PM PDT by Calpernia (
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To: TexGuy

>>>Just leave ...

Is that what you will do? At some point there isn't going to be anyplace to 'leave to'. The Urban Sprawl is creeping into Texas. Developers have been kowtowing to the Texas cities. Look at all the land around Austin that has been destroyed by government.

This problem is all of ours. And if one state just leaves, you all need to line up behind us.

23 posted on 07/16/2006 9:01:08 PM PDT by Calpernia (
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To: ncountylee

its the payoff for all his accumulated sick days.

24 posted on 07/16/2006 9:02:36 PM PDT by oceanview
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To: Calpernia

very true, I warn people about that all the time who criticize (rightly so) NY and NJ. Its coming to where you are too. the NEA and the municipal workers unions, have the same formula planned for the rest of suburban america, as they have done in the northeast.

25 posted on 07/16/2006 9:04:53 PM PDT by oceanview
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To: churchillbuff
No. Neither, ever.

But I don't have to worry that every time he walks out the door, I may never see him alive again.

However, while I think a salary like that isn't unreasonable, $73,000 for retirement is. That is more than my husband makes working and he doesn't get to retire by 48. I don't think it's the salaries for people that are actually working that are the problem, at least in the case of those police officers, but all the perks that allow someone to earn that kind of money retired for more years than they put in on the job.

As for the teachers and what they earn for a job that has weekends and holidays off and a nice summer vacation thrown in to boot.....

26 posted on 07/16/2006 9:09:04 PM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: oceanview

It will be interesting to see if this Kelo vs. New London ruling gets overturned.

The Halper's lawyer is filing for a conflict of interest in the U.S. Supreme Court on Monday.
July 8-10, 2006 Camp-Out at the Halper Farm to Stop Eminent Domain

Maybe that will be a step in the right direction to stop this eminent domain/developer's urban sprawl.

27 posted on 07/16/2006 9:20:58 PM PDT by Calpernia (
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To: metmom

I'd be surprised if the police officers in my township earn that much. There's not much crime here. The article quoted salaries in northeast NJ - maybe they're working in high-crime areas. I don't know.

For a couple years, I lived in a very high crime area in PA (near Philadelphia) where the police force was understaffed - there was only one officer per patrol car - and they seemed so vulnerable and frightened all the time. So I agree they should be paid well (and should ride with a partner in high crime areas).

You're right - there are other cuts that should be made. It's the property taxes here (consisting mostly of school taxes) that are crippling us. And now we have Corzine as governor - the NEA and NJEA have him in their pockets.

28 posted on 07/16/2006 9:28:21 PM PDT by Tired of Taxes (That's taxes, not Texas. I have no beef with TX. NJ has the highest property taxes in the nation.)
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To: metmom

What they should pay cops is enough so they can have enough cops and not a penny more. That's the market wage.

And there are much more dangerous careers than being a cop.

29 posted on 07/16/2006 10:38:57 PM PDT by stands2reason (ANAGRAM for the day: Socialist twaddle == Tact is disallowed)
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To: Lancey Howard
I don't know about him, but it makes me feel better. I live in the only rental that was available at the time I moved to this town in southern NM.

I pay $385 a month to live in a mobile home trailer that's older than I am. Plus free water/sewer, a monthly$34 electric bill and no property tax.

30 posted on 07/16/2006 10:47:42 PM PDT by stands2reason (ANAGRAM for the day: Socialist twaddle == Tact is disallowed)
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To: Tired of Taxes; stands2reason

The article quoted the $100,000 range for NE NJ. What's the cost of living like that close to NYC, do you know, ToT? It could be that it's not unreasonable for that area. For where we live it's great, but you can get a nice sized 3 bedroom house for about $100,000 here and I know you can't touch that elsewhere. And I know from friends that live closer to NYC that gas is higher the closer to downstate you live.

31 posted on 07/17/2006 4:45:01 AM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Tired of Taxes

One town mentioned was Butler, NJ. I lived near there and worked in Butler for about 5 years. Very little crime. Most of the police salaries were overtime. There were only a handful of officers and they worked 12 hr shifts.

Someone else hit the nail on the head. Drive through north Jersey and every mile or two and you are in a different town. Each town has it's own police, fire, DPW, schools, etc etc. Consolidation is what needs to happen but there are too many little fiefdems for that to ever become reality.

I left NJ 3 years ago and came back to north MI where I grew up. I am now self-employed and though I make less than I did in NJ my standard of living and quality of life is far better.

32 posted on 07/17/2006 5:34:21 AM PDT by wingnut1971 (Oh good...another BS study I get to pay for.)
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To: Coleus

You are so right about the number of towns/townships in New Jersey. First, though, I live in south Jersey....AND I'm a public school teacher. Believe me, these costs are MUCH higher than those in the south, partly because the cost of living close to NY is so high. I am not defending the salaries these people get, but you must realize the cost of living in North Jersey is outrageous!
The biggest problem in New Jersey is not simply the costs of pensions, etc. The government is so corrupt and refyse to cut the spending that they can..they waste incredible amounts of money.
Also, most of the assemblymen are ALSO part-time mayors or some other government job...hence an even HIGHER pension, etc. Our part time mayor lives in the largest development because he is also an assemblyman. Believe me, the economic development in New Jersey should be producing a why do we have a deficit? Let's see...McGreevey, Codey and Corzine and the Democratic assembly who won't cut spending.

33 posted on 07/17/2006 6:22:29 AM PDT by t2buckeye
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To: Intolerant in NJ

You are absolutely right!!!! The educational bureaucracy in Trenton is unbelieveable (as are their salaries!)

34 posted on 07/17/2006 6:25:10 AM PDT by t2buckeye
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To: metmom

In south Jersey (which is much cheaper than Northern NJ) a four bedroom house we bought in 1987 for 119,000 now goes for almost 300,000.
In North New Jersey, you couldn't touch a 4 bedroom house for under 500,000-550.000

35 posted on 07/17/2006 6:27:43 AM PDT by t2buckeye
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To: Coleus

California is facing similar problems, but it's still mostly under the radar of the average voter - who still thinks police, teachers and firefighters are underpaid.

Public employee unions make campaign contributions to the very politicans who set their salaries and benefits. I don't understand how such a blatant conflict of interest is legal.

36 posted on 07/17/2006 7:17:28 AM PDT by jrp
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To: Calpernia; doug from upland; EdReform; Born Conservative

Got my quarterly property tax in the mail Saturday.
64% of my 5 digit property tax goes to the Board of Education.

37 posted on 07/17/2006 7:25:51 AM PDT by The Spirit Of Allegiance (Public Employees: Honor Your Oaths! Defend the Constitution from Enemies--Foreign and Domestic!)
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To: metmom; wingnut1971
you can get a nice sized 3 bedroom house for about $100,000 here

That's the way things were in our part of south Jersey about 9 years ago when we bought our house. Now the same homes are going for $200,000 - $300,000. Nowadays, we do know a lot of people pulling in six figures.

What wingnut1971 said (see post 32) is true - NJ consists of a bunch of little fiefdoms. Several years ago, our property taxes soared after our township and the surrounding townships voted to dissolve the school district. Each town assumed control of its own school system. We were promised that our taxes would decrease with the dissolution. What happened was that the taxes DID decrease for the other townships, but increased for our own.

38 posted on 07/17/2006 9:17:17 AM PDT by Tired of Taxes (That's taxes, not Texas. I have no beef with TX. NJ has the highest property taxes in the nation.)
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