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Mark Steyn: Before the white man came? War
Macleans ^ | 07/18/06 | Mark Steyn

Posted on 07/18/2006 7:45:03 AM PDT by Pokey78

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To: Pokey78

Another inconvenient politically incorrect fact about Pocahantas is that she was converted to Christianity.


101 posted on 07/18/2006 10:38:18 AM PDT by Drawsing (The fool shows his annoyance at once. The prudent man overlooks an insult. (Proverbs 12:16))
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To: Pokey78

I always suspected that the myth of the noble savage hooey was an invention of modern guilt-ridden, left wing white men.


102 posted on 07/18/2006 10:39:44 AM PDT by jpl (Victorious warriors win first, then go to war; defeated warriors go to war first, then seek to win.)
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To: Pokey78

Yet another in the litany of brilliance from the Great One. There's definitely some points here that I'm going to use to go all Charles Martel on some Hizballah apologists on other forums.


103 posted on 07/18/2006 10:48:30 AM PDT by Dr.Deth
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To: Pokey78

Romanticizing the savage has been going on since at least Tacitus, and got worse since Rousseau.


104 posted on 07/18/2006 11:12:21 AM PDT by The_Reader_David (And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know. . .)
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To: Pokey78
A few years ago, I asked Tim Rice, who'd just written the lyrics for Disney's Aladdin and The Lion King, why he wasn't doing Pocahontas. "Well, the minute they mentioned it," he said, "I knew the Brits would be the bad guys. I felt it was my patriotic duty to decline."

Well, good for him. I wish a few more people in the industry knew the words "patriotic duty."

105 posted on 07/18/2006 11:13:49 AM PDT by nina0113
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To: Blue State Insurgent
You can't feed millions of Meso-Americans on Chihuahuas alone.

Yo quiero Taco Bell.

106 posted on 07/18/2006 11:21:55 AM PDT by LexBaird ("Politically Correct" is the politically correct term for "F*cking Retarded". - Psycho Bunny)
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To: harmodius

http://www.uoregon.edu/~jboland/rousseau.html

Rousseau


107 posted on 07/18/2006 11:24:14 AM PDT by Mercat
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To: Pokey78
"He also had with him," notes professor Keeley, "a dagger, a bow, and some arrows; presumably these were his small change."

BAHAHAHAHAHA...yeah, and I carry ammo in my pockets to barter with...

Nonetheless, anthropologists concluded that he was a shepherd who had fallen asleep and frozen peacefully to death in a snowstorm. Then the X-ray results came back and showed he had an arrowhead in him.

Well, that's carrying emergency funds just a bit too far, in my opinion.

"Solitary, nasty, brutish, and short." But enough about Howard Dean...

108 posted on 07/18/2006 11:36:29 AM PDT by Billthedrill
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To: Pokey78
This view of the innocent natives is everywhere.

I'm reading "Flyboys" about WWII fliers which would be an excellent book were it not for a lot of moral equivalency...passages about how the Americans used "ethnic cleansing" on American Indians and took Hawaii at "bayonet-point"...that kind of stuff.

Outrageous historical revisionism is everywhere.

109 posted on 07/18/2006 11:39:21 AM PDT by what's up
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To: sima_yi

It's a win win situation. You either get money or you expose reparations for the fraud it is. Let's see the race pimps scream "reparations" now.


110 posted on 07/18/2006 11:41:51 AM PDT by Killborn (Pres. Bush isn't Pres. Reagan. Then again, Pres. Regan isn't Pres. Washington. God bless them all.)
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To: LexBaird

LOL!


111 posted on 07/18/2006 12:12:12 PM PDT by Blue State Insurgent (NY Times + CIA Leakers = Culture of Treason)
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To: Pokey78
You'll recall that, when Samuel Doe was toppled as Liberia's leader, he was served a last meal of his own ears. His killers kept his genitals for themselves, under the belief that if you eat a man's penis you acquire his powers

Sounds like Doe just pissed off Mike Tyson instead of revolutionaries.

112 posted on 07/18/2006 12:16:21 PM PDT by Centurion2000 (You can't qualify war in harsher terms than I will. War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it-Sherman)
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To: IronJack
I don't remember any European civilization that practiced cannibalism as a routine matter.

Though they were certainly outcasts and reviled, have you ever read about the grotesque Beane family of Scotland? Strange, strange story.

The Sawny Beane family

113 posted on 07/18/2006 12:17:29 PM PDT by Madame Dufarge
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To: UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide
Nonetheless, anthropologists concluded that he was a shepherd who had fallen asleep and frozen peacefully to death in a snowstorm. Then the X-ray results came back and showed he had an arrowhead in him.

Just a freak hunting accident - nothing to see here. /s

It was Cheney hunting back when he first came of age !! (/DU moonbat rant)

114 posted on 07/18/2006 12:20:57 PM PDT by Centurion2000 (You can't qualify war in harsher terms than I will. War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it-Sherman)
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To: Killborn

Nah, the NCAA. They seemed to have usurped the role of protector. Probably have more money, too.


115 posted on 07/18/2006 12:27:42 PM PDT by Calvin Locke
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To: jpl

Nah, it was the guilty white women. Buncha bleeding hearts and flowers.


116 posted on 07/18/2006 12:30:06 PM PDT by garyhope (It's World War IV, right here, right now courtesy of Islam.)
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To: Blue State Insurgent

ROFL.


117 posted on 07/18/2006 12:41:18 PM PDT by garyhope (It's World War IV, right here, right now courtesy of Islam.)
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To: Pokey78

" under the belief that if you eat a man's penis you acquire his powers."

My first wife would know all about that. She got my power of attorney and divorced me.

Then there was this real cute gal in LA,........

Rimshot! Badda Boom!


118 posted on 07/18/2006 12:50:33 PM PDT by garyhope (It's World War IV, right here, right now courtesy of Islam.)
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To: Madame Dufarge

The difference here is that when the king heard about this abomination, he summoned an army of 400 and scoured the countryside for the offenders. In the case of the "civilized" Aztecs, the king also scoured the countryside, but for the same reason as Sawny Beane: shopping.


119 posted on 07/18/2006 12:55:03 PM PDT by IronJack
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To: Pokey78

I would like to be added to the Steyn ping.

Thanks


120 posted on 07/18/2006 1:03:41 PM PDT by RJL
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To: Chances Are

There was a little resistance and argument, but not much. Up here in Fairbanks there is a fair share of lefties, but for the most part the students are conservative and the faculty runs about 50/50 so they can't push their agenda too far.


121 posted on 07/18/2006 1:12:48 PM PDT by vpintheak (All other ground is sinking sand.)
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To: Madame Dufarge

That is about the freakiest thing I've ever read.


122 posted on 07/18/2006 1:20:20 PM PDT by SquirrelKing
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To: IronJack
The difference here is that when the king heard about this abomination, he summoned an army of 400 and scoured the countryside for the offenders.

Yes, I know. I wasn't drawing a parallel between the two. It's just that - let's face it - how often do you get to bring up the Beane family in the course of a lifetime?

123 posted on 07/18/2006 1:28:57 PM PDT by Madame Dufarge
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To: SquirrelKing

Same here.


124 posted on 07/18/2006 1:36:18 PM PDT by Madame Dufarge
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To: RJL

Done.


125 posted on 07/18/2006 1:40:00 PM PDT by Pokey78 (‘FREE [INSERT YOUR FETID TOTALITARIAN BASKET-CASE HERE]’)
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To: Pokey78

I love Steyn... and not just for his ax.


126 posted on 07/18/2006 1:40:15 PM PDT by Ruth A. (we might as well fight in the first ditch as the last)
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To: Pokey78
It's never a good idea to put reality up for grabs

Bears repeating.

L

127 posted on 07/18/2006 2:52:28 PM PDT by Lurker (2 months and still no Bill from Congressman Pence. What is he milking squids for the ink?)
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To: Pokey78
Thanks Pokey....just got home and surely would have missed this gem if not for you.

FMCDH(BITS)

128 posted on 07/18/2006 3:02:43 PM PDT by nothingnew (I fear for my Republic due to marxist influence in our government. Open eyes/see)
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To: Restorer
Apparently, after many centuries living in indefensible pueblos on the mesa tops, they just decided, for no particular reason, to move into the incredibly inconvenient but highly defensible cliff dwellings.

I live in Durango CO about 45 miles from Mesa Verde National Park. Built by the Anaszi Indians, it is, INDEED, way up there in the mountains. A twenty minute ride around and around in circles to get to the top.

I'm a printer here in Durango, and constantly print 4/c brochures and books about Mesa Verde, and Chimney Rock to the south. There is never any mention of fighting or "wars" about these ancients.

Kind of funny, isn't it, considering this article....if Mesa Verde and the Anansazi had cannons, it would be "The Guns of Navarone".

Most of the crap I print here for the touristas is just that...Crap.

FMCDH(BITS)

129 posted on 07/18/2006 3:16:17 PM PDT by nothingnew (I fear for my Republic due to marxist influence in our government. Open eyes/see)
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To: Restorer
Another myth that dies hard is that diseases were unknown among the primitive peoples before the white man brought them.

In May, I visited the New American Indian Museum at the Smithsonian. There was a detailed native account of finding village after village with so many people dead of disease there weren't enough survivors to bury them in the area around present day Cape Cod.

The implication that white man brought the disease was obvious. Less obvious was the dates of the account-- all years before any white man set foot on Plymouth Rock (1620).

This account was collaborated by an associate at the North Dakota Historical Society years earlier. Because I can prove some native blood in my lineage, I have access to some sources of information ordinary white guys do not. The associate told me that human remains dating from the 15th century (late 1400's) found in North Dakota showed signs of TB, another "white man's disease" supposedly unknown at the time. In the opinion of this associate, much of the agitation to return remains to politically-connected tribes was to prevent further study.

130 posted on 07/18/2006 3:39:13 PM PDT by Vigilanteman (crime would drop like a sprung trapdoor if we brought back good old-fashioned hangings)
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To: Restorer
The Clovis overkill hypothesis is that human hunters arrived in America about 12,000 years ago and promptly killed off all the large mammals.

The archaeological evidence for overhunting is hard to find other than in New Zealand--and that was more recent. There is the "blitzkreig hypothesis" that holds that the extinctions occured within a few hundred years of the first arrival of humans in any one place. The American large mammals did disappear suddenly.

1. Evidence is growing all the time that humans have been in the Americas for much longer, as far back as 20,000 or 25,000 BP.

The earlier American humans who had much different skulls than the Siberians may have been situationally more like the Africans who coevolved with large mammals. In Africa the extinctions were low (19 percent) compared to the losses in the Americas. As an aside I can't help but wonder if the early Americans made it off the continents or were extinguished by the invaders (as large mammals?).

A great many other animals went extinct at the same time, including ones unlikely to be hunted by people, implying that there were other causes involved.

Astor's fur gatherers used Nobel's dynamite on beaver dams in large areas of the West. With the beavers gone many other species disappeared as well. Restoration of that ecology now that the streams that once held beaver ponds are arid gullies is nigh impossible. The hydrologic drought caused by the demise of those green hills extends for hundreds of miles downwind.

131 posted on 07/18/2006 4:47:35 PM PDT by Poincare
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To: Poincare
Astor's fur gatherers used Nobel's dynamite on beaver dams in large areas of the West.

I'm sure you've got something wrong in your chronology.

The fur trade in the West was more or less over by 1835 as fashions changed.

Nobel invented dynamite in 1867.

If Astor had a time machine, no wonder he became the richest man in America.

132 posted on 07/18/2006 4:52:10 PM PDT by Restorer
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To: what's up
passages about how the Americans used "ethnic cleansing" on American Indians

What would you call it?

133 posted on 07/18/2006 5:00:24 PM PDT by Restorer
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To: what's up
passages about how the Americans used "ethnic cleansing" on American Indians

What would you call it?

134 posted on 07/18/2006 5:00:31 PM PDT by Restorer
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To: Vigilanteman
The implication that white man brought the disease was obvious. Less obvious was the dates of the account-- all years before any white man set foot on Plymouth Rock (1620).

White men had been all over the area for nearly a century. 1620 was just when the first permanent white settlement was founded.

For instance, hundreds of ships visited the Great Banks every year, and many of them went to shore nearby for a little R&R and trading with the Indians.

Squanto, who you may remember from the Pilgrim story, was abducted by some of these men and taken to Spain and then England before eventually making his way home.

Such intermittent contact is plenty to pass disease along.

I can't speak to your ND story. However, it is believed that most of the diseases spread from tribe to tribe without a white man in sight. By the time whitey showed up, anywhere from 50% to 95% of the original inhabitants had already died off. The white man, logically enough, took what he found as the natural state of things.

There is a very logical reason that epidemic diseases were probably unknown in the Americas before Columbus. They are almost all diseases of domestic animals that have mutated to where they affect people. Which we continue to see today with flu strains. The Indians had essentially no domestic animals and therefore no epidemic diseases. With the possible exception of syphillis, which the Spaniards may have taken back to Europe with them. In any case, it was noted as a new thing in Italy in 1493.

BTW, if it makes you feel any better, just about all these diseases should be called Asian or African diseases. Very few originated in Europe.

135 posted on 07/18/2006 5:09:06 PM PDT by Restorer
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To: Pokey78; B4Ranch

BUMP!ping


136 posted on 07/18/2006 5:10:13 PM PDT by Brian Allen ("In war there is no substitute for victory." General Douglas MacArthur)
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To: Pokey78

bttt


137 posted on 07/18/2006 5:45:35 PM PDT by EveningStar
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To: Elsie; AndrewC; jennyp; lockeliberty; RadioAstronomer; LiteKeeper; Fester Chugabrew; ...
Ping!

Steyn brilliantly exhibits how so-called modern scientists have drank the Kool-Aide.

Clearly, considering the propensity of human beings to shape their interpretation of evidence based on their personal worldview, one must consider ones associations more thoroughly.

Being that Steyn is so brilliant in his ability to torture the logic of others, I am glad he is a believer in Jesus Christ.

138 posted on 07/18/2006 6:04:21 PM PDT by bondserv (God governs our universe and has seen fit to offer us a pardon. †)
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To: Restorer
The Indians had essentially no domestic animals and therefore no epidemic diseases.

You raise some interesting points until you got here. Most of the plains and eastern tribes used dogs as beasts of burden (and meals) long before whitey showed up. In the southern end of the continent, the Incas used Llamas and Alpacas. In what is now North Dakota, the Mandan raised chickens.

I always get a kick out of how backward Europeans look at out native peoples. The Aztec and Maya cities are legendary for their work with precious metals, cement and medicine. Both civilizations were rotting from within by the time whitey showed up.

Even in the less civilized tribes of North America, there was a trading culture far more advanced than is realized. Tools and metal artifact of eastern tribal design have been found in central North Dakota burial mounds. The Navajo originally came from Alaska. The Chippewa were originally pushed out of the Finger Lakes region of New York by the Seneca and eventually made it to Wisconsin and Minnesota to push out the Sioux who, in turn, moved to the Dakotas to displace the Mandan and others . . . again long before whitey showed up.

Certainly whitey brought more diseases into the mix, but he also took a few back to Europe with him, as you pointed out. The whole point of Steyn's article (as well as our exchange about the exchange of diseases) is to show that the so-called experts don't know squat.

Years ago, in a past life, I had a job which brought me in contact with a lot of these people. I learned a lot of interesting stuff including this account of Tehcumseh's curse.

139 posted on 07/18/2006 6:13:48 PM PDT by Vigilanteman (crime would drop like a sprung trapdoor if we brought back good old-fashioned hangings)
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To: Vigilanteman

Fair enough. I was aware of the llama, alpaca and dogs being present in America. Also I believe the Muscovy duck and turkeys were domesticated in Mesoamerica.

My point stands, however. Most of the major epidemic diseases come from domesticated herd animals such as pigs, sheep, horses and cattle. The Indians had none of these animals and therefore no exposure to the diseases we contracted from being in constant contact with them.

There is also some evidence that pureblood Indians have a narrower range of immune responses, probably due to "genetic bottleneck" created by Indians being descended from a small group.

I suspect you are wrong about the Mandans raising chickens. Possibly when Lewis and Clark arrived, not before Columbus, as I believe chickens are native to SE Asia, not South Dakota.

I don't believe Indians were backward. The more we look, the more complex and varied their societies are found to be.

A single plague, the Black Death, in medieval Europe killed about 1/4 to 1/3 of the population and caused massive social disruption for the next century or so.

Consider the effects of plague after plague with equivalent or greater death rates. Most of the Indians the white man ran into were basically refugees from broken societies.


140 posted on 07/18/2006 6:33:35 PM PDT by Restorer
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To: Pokey78

nttt


141 posted on 07/18/2006 6:42:59 PM PDT by dennisw (Confucius say man who go through turnstile sideways going to Bangkok)
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To: harmodius
an eye-opening dissection of the "noble savage" myth.

It is a sign of societal regression and devolution that this subject requires elucidation. Indeed the very phrase "noble savage," advanced by the pervert Rousseau, has been used ironically for over two hundred years by normal adults who have in fact always known better.

142 posted on 07/18/2006 6:49:43 PM PDT by hinckley buzzard
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To: gaspar

Many of our Indian tribes didn't go to war over resources and hunting grounds. Very often the wars were fought for warrior's honor (bragging rights) and to capture the enemy's women for sex slaves and to make babies for YOUR TRIBE. Larger the tribe the stronger you are to conquer other tribes


143 posted on 07/18/2006 6:51:37 PM PDT by dennisw (Confucius say man who go through turnstile sideways going to Bangkok)
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To: harmodius
an eye-opening dissection of the "noble savage" myth.

It is a sign of societal regression and devolution that this subject requires elucidation. Indeed the very phrase "noble savage," advanced by the pervert Rousseau, has been used ironically for over two hundred years by normal adults who have in fact always known better.

144 posted on 07/18/2006 6:53:13 PM PDT by hinckley buzzard
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To: bondserv
Steyn brilliantly exhibits how so-called modern scientists have drank the Kool-Aide.

On the contrary, scientists haven't forgotten history, that's for the ignorant and the stupid, as illustrated by the MSM.

Clearly, considering the propensity of human beings to shape their interpretation of evidence based on their personal worldview, one must consider ones associations more thoroughly.

Again, you are misinterpreting journalistic interpretation with history.

Being that Steyn is so brilliant in his ability to torture the logic of others, I am glad he is a believer in Jesus Christ.

Funny that there's no evidence of that in the article. Nor did he mention any Jesus, Christ or otherwise ...

Why do you ping me again?

145 posted on 07/18/2006 7:19:02 PM PDT by balrog666 (Ignorance is never better than knowledge. - Enrico Fermi)
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To: Pokey78
By the sound of Western percussion it sounds like we'll kick third world butt.
146 posted on 07/18/2006 8:09:25 PM PDT by Fester Chugabrew
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To: Restorer; Vigilanteman
V-man:

In what is now North Dakota, the Mandan raised chickens.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Restorer:

I suspect you are wrong about the Mandans raising chickens. Possibly when Lewis and Clark arrived, not before Columbus, as I believe chickens are native to SE Asia, not South Dakota.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Perhaps the vikings brought chickens with them from Greenland.
147 posted on 07/18/2006 8:22:45 PM PDT by tpaine
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To: tpaine
The scientific name of the chicken is galus domesticus, descendents of the jungle fowl galus galus from Southeast Asia.

A logical route of import into the North American continent would be over the fabled Beiring Straight land bridge from Asia.

While the Mandans are perhaps the most northernmost tribe known to raise chickens, they were also raised by tribes in what is now Latin America. The Inca even developed their own breed, the Aracuna who lay pastel colored eggs, generally light blue or green.

Therefore, I think it is a stretch to say the Mandan didn't get the chickens until about the time of Lewis and Clark. French Canadian trader Sieur de la Verendrye in 1738 visited the Mandan and recorded many of their agricultural practices, including poultry, in his dairy. One crackpot theory at the time even claimed the Mandan were the descendants Prince Madoc and his followers who had emigrated to America from Wales circa 1170 because they were so civilized (i.e. like white people).

As a boy growing up in North Dakota, I can remember reading parts of la Verendrye's dairy (translated into English, of course) getting a real chuckle at how advanced these "savages" were. One particular passage about how they huddled together naked under buffalo robes in their communal earth lodges to keep warm during the winter was particularly memorable. la Verendrye pointed this out, it seemed, not for the interest but to prove that despite all, they weren't quite as advanced as Europeans after all.

Restorer's point that disease immunities were not well developed in native peoples is, I think, quite valid. The gene pools were definitely limited by tribalism, a relatively sparse population and a rural lifestyle which offered limited opportunities to stir the gene pool.

148 posted on 07/18/2006 8:59:07 PM PDT by Vigilanteman (crime would drop like a sprung trapdoor if we brought back good old-fashioned hangings)
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To: Pokey78; Howlin
The image of the noble savage lives on!


"I'll have the roast duck with the mango salsa."

Cheers!

149 posted on 07/18/2006 9:00:54 PM PDT by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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To: Vigilanteman
While the Mandans are perhaps the most northernmost tribe known to raise chickens, they were also raised by tribes in what is now Latin America.

Sorry, but I just can't find any mention of pre-colombian chickens in the Americas. Do you have any links or sources prior to 1700?

150 posted on 07/18/2006 9:29:01 PM PDT by tpaine
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