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'Gay panic' defense tactic under scrutiny at conference (Intentional gender misrepresentation)
The San Francisco Chronicle ^ | Wednesday, July 19, 2006 | Wyatt Buchanan

Posted on 07/21/2006 10:49:04 AM PDT by Stoat

A gay Atlanta man was bludgeoned to death and his confessed killer walked free after claiming he was forced into a sexual act and responded in self-defense. The killer of a Kentucky man whose body was stuffed in a suitcase and dumped into a lake also claimed he acted to thwart a sexual advance and was convicted of manslaughter instead of murder.

(Excerpt) Read more at sfgate.com ...


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Extended News; News/Current Events; US: Georgia; US: Kentucky
KEYWORDS: gaypanic; homosexual; homosexualagenda; law; murdernotok; queerpower; rape; roughtrade; selfdefenseok; sexualassault
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See also this Fox News article on the same topic

FOXNews.com - Prosecutors Seek to Deter Gay Panic Defenses for Violent Crimes - Local News News Articles National News US News

As a normal, healthy, heterosexual male, if I were to be lied to and discovered only after the fact that a personal liaison was with someone who as born as a male, and that person intentionally misrepresented themselves as a female, I would probably consider it much in the same way as a woman considers a rape.  This 'conference' appears to be an effort to legitimize the concept of transgender and cross-dressers lying about who they are and misrepresenting themselves and minimizing the consequences of engaging in such a horrific practice.

1 posted on 07/21/2006 10:49:07 AM PDT by Stoat
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To: Stoat

But, if someone is stupid enough to have sex with an obvious stranger, I'd have to suggest the old caveat emptor applies. Your post seems to be an effort to legitimize the one night stand, and not have to deal with the consequences of the stupidity (not you personally, but the normal hetero male who got himself into the situation).


2 posted on 07/21/2006 11:04:05 AM PDT by dmz
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To: Stoat

"I met her in a club down in old Soho . . . " - Raymond Douglas Davies


3 posted on 07/21/2006 11:04:19 AM PDT by wideawake ("The nation which forgets its defenders will itself be forgotten." - Calvin Coolidge)
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To: dmz; Stoat

I agree with dmz. If you have drunken intercourse with a complete stranger, you're a dolt.


4 posted on 07/21/2006 11:05:34 AM PDT by wideawake ("The nation which forgets its defenders will itself be forgotten." - Calvin Coolidge)
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To: dmz

And if a woman is stupid enough to dress like a slut, does she deserve anything that might come to her?


5 posted on 07/21/2006 11:05:39 AM PDT by thoughtomator (Famous last words: "what does ibtz mean?")
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To: thoughtomator

If a man dresses like a metrosexual, does he deserve a male hand on his buttocks?


6 posted on 07/21/2006 11:13:01 AM PDT by RedRover (Question for the day.)
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To: wideawake; dmz
I agree with dmz. If you have drunken intercourse with a complete stranger, you're a dolt.

Agreed, and I'm not trying to legitimize one-night stands either.  What if it didn't even get to the point of intercourse?  Even a kiss would make me feel completely violated and dirty....I can hardly imagine how I would feel if such an awful thing were to happen to me..

 

7 posted on 07/21/2006 11:15:48 AM PDT by Stoat (Rice / Coulter 2008: Smart Ladies for a Strong America)
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To: thoughtomator

And if a woman is stupid enough to dress like a slut, does she deserve anything that might come to her?
_____________

That has to be the most ridiculous comparison I could imagine.

In one case we have an idiot male having consensual sex with someone he does not know (obviously at all), and your example of a woman getting raped (I assume that's what you meant) because of how she dressed.

How in God's name do you connect those 2 different situations?


8 posted on 07/21/2006 11:22:16 AM PDT by dmz
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To: Stoat

But it was your own doing that got you into that situation, you would need to take responsibility for your poor judgement.

Women lie to men, do you think you should be able to kick their ass for that?


9 posted on 07/21/2006 11:23:45 AM PDT by dmz
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To: Stoat

But it was your own doing that got you into that situation, you would need to take responsibility for your poor judgement.

Women lie to men, do you think you should be able to kick their ass for that?


10 posted on 07/21/2006 11:23:47 AM PDT by dmz
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To: dmz
But it was your own doing that got you into that situation, you would need to take responsibility for your poor judgement.

When someone else intentionally misrepresents themselves, I don't see that as my own doing.  Is the liar to be completely without fault?

If so, why?

Women lie to men, do you think you should be able to kick their ass for that?

Women don't typically lie to men about their gender, I consider such a lie in a completely different category than, say, lying about how old she is or how many boyfriends she has had.  It's a question of degree, and lying about your sexual identity seems a pretty high degree of a lie to me.

11 posted on 07/21/2006 11:29:15 AM PDT by Stoat (Rice / Coulter 2008: Smart Ladies for a Strong America)
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To: dmz

I agree. Moreover, lying is no grounds to hurt someone. If you really feel violated, seek civil recourse in court. There is no good reason to hurt someone for that. You made a mistake, deal with it in a civilized way. If someone mugs you or attacks you, you kill them, but no way for this. Murder is a sin, and killing someone for misrepresenting themselves it not self defense. It is assault or murder, and you then are the threat to others, and should be punished.


12 posted on 07/21/2006 11:40:56 AM PDT by gafusa
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To: Stoat

If you can't change a bulb in the dark, you should keep the lights on.


13 posted on 07/21/2006 11:42:27 AM PDT by Old Professer (The critic writes with rapier pen, dips it twice, and writes again.)
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To: thoughtomator

Pretty much; but that doesn't make it legal to abuse her.


14 posted on 07/21/2006 11:43:22 AM PDT by Old Professer (The critic writes with rapier pen, dips it twice, and writes again.)
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To: Stoat
But that perception cuts to the core of the issue of transgender people living as their true selves, which is often stereotyped as a deception, according to Daley of the Transgender Law Center.

It's merely a "deception" when their DNA screams LIAR?

Don't misunderstand me, I am NOT condoning murder but these people seem to see no problem with lying.

15 posted on 07/21/2006 11:44:27 AM PDT by DJ MacWoW (If you think you know what's coming next....You don't know Jack.)
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To: dmz

In both cases people are volunarily engaging in promiscuous activity, and in both cases find themselves involuntarily involved in a sexual act. Having bad sexual judgement doesn't mean a free pass for anyone to take advantage.


16 posted on 07/21/2006 11:48:50 AM PDT by thoughtomator (Famous last words: "what does ibtz mean?")
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To: gafusa
If you really feel violated, seek civil recourse in court.

You don't get it. Panic at discovering you've been lied to is the problem. Few men want it made public. It's NOT a defense for murder but I certainly can understand a violent reaction to being lied to.

Instead of trying to pass new laws why not educate gays, cross dressers and transgendered folk NOT TO LIE.

17 posted on 07/21/2006 11:53:43 AM PDT by DJ MacWoW (If you think you know what's coming next....You don't know Jack.)
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To: Stoat

Is the liar to be completely without fault?
_________

Not at all. But you didn't do your own due diligence. There are 2 separate issues involved. I am commenting only on one side of it, and that is the side that relates to one's libido driving their own inappropriate behavior. That part is totally under your control, and yet you want to hold the other person responsible for your poor choices.

I'm no prude, mind you (came of age in the 1970's), but have been married for 17 years and have been out of the game for a while. I think a bar pickup (not likely to encounter too many gender benders at a church social) gets you what you want/deserve: getting your rocks off. You aren't eligible for a do-over after the fact. And you certainly cannot blame the other party for your lousy judgement.


18 posted on 07/21/2006 11:58:55 AM PDT by dmz
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To: Stoat
The killer of a Kentucky man whose body was stuffed in a suitcase ....

Several years ago in a case where the body was found in a suitcase an insensitive member of this forum asked if this cold be considered carrion luggage. I know, I know....

19 posted on 07/21/2006 12:09:40 PM PDT by Random Access
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To: dmz
yet you want to hold the other person responsible for your poor choices.

No, I want to hold the other person responsible for their lie.

As I've stated, I'm not advocating or defending bar pickups, one night stands or any such behavior, and I'm certainly not advocating "kicking someone's ass" as you put it.

The fact of the matter is that some of these cross-dressing perverts are very young and very skilled at making themselves appear female.  They are so good at what they do that intelligent and non-drunk people often have difficulty distinguishing them from the real thing.

Although it's of course important that a man be as sure as he can about what he's doing, my only concern is that there appears to be an effort in this "conference" to minimize and ultimately eliminate any responsibility whatsoever on the part of the homosexual cross-dresser, and to blame any negative effects of such an encounter upon the 'evil, homophobic' heterosexual male.

20 posted on 07/21/2006 12:27:23 PM PDT by Stoat (Rice / Coulter 2008: Smart Ladies for a Strong America)
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To: thoughtomator

In a traffic accident, the person who had the last opportunity to avoid the accident, but did not, is often deemed to be at fault.

The guy who hooks up with a gender bender had the opportunity not to.


21 posted on 07/21/2006 12:29:10 PM PDT by dmz
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To: dmz; Stoat
There are 2 separate issues involved.

Absolutely. And one is being ignored. That is that these people are engaging in dangerous behaviour by lying about who they really are. It's the root cause for the violence.

A quote from the article:"We need to be able to understand who the victims are and explain why who they are can never be argued as a justification for their demise," said San Francisco District Attorney Kamala Harris,

The problem is that neither can it be discounted. And that's what they are trying to do, excuse lying.

I don't understand murdering a person for their deception but can certainly understand a pop in the jaw.

From the article: As many as 200 prosecutors and law enforcement officers are expected to attend the event, which is sponsored by gay, lesbian and transgender groups

Wouldn't it be smarter to tell them that deceiving someone could end in violence or death? Rather than discuss strategies to counter the "gay panic" or "transgender panic" defenses used in courtrooms to gain acquittals or reduced punishments for violent crimes. They see it as a simple "deception". I see it as a very dangerous lie and a kind of russian roulette.

22 posted on 07/21/2006 12:29:19 PM PDT by DJ MacWoW (If you think you know what's coming next....You don't know Jack.)
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To: Old Professer
If you can't change a bulb in the dark, you should keep the lights on.

Are you suggesting that society should regard it as being perfectly okay when a cross-dresser misrepresents themselves to you in such an expert fashion that an intelligent man (or woman) can't tell the difference?  Some of them are quite skilled in modifying their appearance, and most people would be quite hard-pressed to tell for sure.

Should such an expert liar have absolutely zero responsibility in the matter when they are dealing with such a potentially volatile issue as interpersonal sexual relationships?

23 posted on 07/21/2006 12:30:24 PM PDT by Stoat (Rice / Coulter 2008: Smart Ladies for a Strong America)
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To: DJ MacWoW

Superbly stated, thank you.


24 posted on 07/21/2006 12:31:47 PM PDT by Stoat (Rice / Coulter 2008: Smart Ladies for a Strong America)
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To: dmz
The guy who hooks up with a gender bender had the opportunity not to.

Why are you excusing the behaviour of tricksters?

25 posted on 07/21/2006 12:32:57 PM PDT by DJ MacWoW (If you think you know what's coming next....You don't know Jack.)
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To: Stoat
Even a kiss would make me feel completely violated and dirty....

Well, that's because you're a complete homophobe. That's the real root cause of the problem. If they can eliminate the rampant homophobia that is (still) so prevalent in the country, there might be hope for you. And me.

26 posted on 07/21/2006 12:33:54 PM PDT by ichabod1 (I have to take a shower.)
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To: Stoat
Women don't typically lie to men about their gender,

In a conversation with a female friend of mine, years ago, she related that once, in order to cool a male's ardor, she had quietly whispered in his ear "I was a man once."

27 posted on 07/21/2006 12:36:02 PM PDT by ichabod1 (I have to take a shower.)
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To: Stoat

You're welcome. This is nothing more than a ploy to absolve liars of any responsibilty in the deception. It's excusing dangerous behaviour and that's foolish.


28 posted on 07/21/2006 12:36:28 PM PDT by DJ MacWoW (If you think you know what's coming next....You don't know Jack.)
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To: ichabod1
Even a kiss would make me feel completely violated and dirty....

Well, that's because you're a complete homophobe. That's the real root cause of the problem. If they can eliminate the rampant homophobia that is (still) so prevalent in the country, there might be hope for you. And me.

No, it's because I'm a normal, healthy, sane guy.  And I'm not a person who engages in ad-hominem name calling toward people I don't know.

29 posted on 07/21/2006 12:37:12 PM PDT by Stoat (Rice / Coulter 2008: Smart Ladies for a Strong America)
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To: Stoat; ichabod1

ichabod1 was teasing you.


30 posted on 07/21/2006 12:38:21 PM PDT by DJ MacWoW (If you think you know what's coming next....You don't know Jack.)
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To: Stoat

Sorry, i was imagining the tactic that a homo-leninist would use. No offense intended. That's why I put the "And me." at the end.


31 posted on 07/21/2006 12:38:47 PM PDT by ichabod1 (I have to take a shower.)
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To: ichabod1
Sorry, i was imagining the tactic that a homo-leninist would use. No offense intended. That's why I put the "And me." at the end.

Thank you for your clarification, and I'm sorry that I missed your meaning.

All is well now, have a whisky on me   :-)

img512/4952/whisky3kt.gif

32 posted on 07/21/2006 12:42:03 PM PDT by Stoat (Rice / Coulter 2008: Smart Ladies for a Strong America)
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To: Stoat

Ahhh... very good. I should have put the lisp in there like Rush does and then there would have been no confusion.


33 posted on 07/21/2006 12:44:01 PM PDT by ichabod1 (I have to take a shower.)
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To: Stoat

I was in the AF, at Vandenberg AFB. 25 yo.

A guy who got out ot the AF was a friend. We both loved to work on cars.

One afternoon, after too much beer, we both passed out on my couches.

I awoke to find him massaging my privates. I beat the shit out of him.

Perhaps I should have called the cops, or did the cival court thing. Beating the shit out of him was the right choice.

If I met a girl, and had some kind of sex, or for that matter, even kissed her, and found out she was a he, the beating would be much worse.

I would want to kill that person.


34 posted on 07/21/2006 12:51:47 PM PDT by MonroeDNA (Look for the Union label--on the tunnel ceiling as it smashes your car!)
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To: thoughtomator

No, it isn't surprising if a woman dresses like a slut that she gets what she deserves. The difference (and I think this is what the prior poster was trying to state) is that in the woman's case, the law is on her side if she is dressed like a slut, gets what she deserves and then is upset about it. In the case of the guy, the law is against him if he defends himself from a transsexual.

And I in no way am endorsing anyone's stupid decision to have a one-night stand with a stranger, or really anyone they aren't married to.


35 posted on 07/21/2006 1:00:02 PM PDT by Secret Agent Man
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To: DJ MacWoW

Why are you excusing the behaviour of tricksters?
__________

Please point to any comment I've made excusing the behavior of the trickster.

My focus on this thread is on the behavior of the person who hooks up with someone they obviously know nothing about. A topic that usually is supported here on FR, personal responsibility. I cannot blame the trickster for my crappy judgement, and since I have made a really stupid decision, I, and only I, am responsible for that.

The situation would not happen unless or until the "normal, heterosexual male" makes a decision using only guidance from his penis instead of his brain.

You cannot pretend that a person exercising good judgement would find himself in this situation.


36 posted on 07/21/2006 1:05:06 PM PDT by dmz
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To: dmz
Please point to any comment I've made excusing the behavior of the trickster.

How many posts have you made?

My focus on this thread is on the behavior of the person who hooks up with someone they obviously know nothing about. A topic that usually is supported here on FR, personal responsibility.

This is definately about responsibility. It was the initial actions of the tricksters that is responsible for the violent reactions.

The situation would not happen unless or until the "normal, heterosexual male" makes a decision using only guidance from his penis instead of his brain.

The initial action is a person that purposely set out to deceive.

37 posted on 07/21/2006 1:10:47 PM PDT by DJ MacWoW (If you think you know what's coming next....You don't know Jack.)
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To: MonroeDNA; All

Thank you very much for serving our country :-)

What a terrible, horrific event you were subjected to. I believe that I would feel the same way as you and would most likely do what you did as well. For a healthy man, such a thing is possibly the deepest violation that can be experienced.

I am guessing that ladies would want to do the same to rapists and molesters if they had the physical strength or the means to do so. Any Ladies care to comment on this?

The infuriating thing about this, for me, is that this 'conference' is a thinly-veiled attempt to legitimize cross-dressers lying about their true identities in order to get society's blessing to do the awful things that they do. Once again, special rights are being demanded for perverts.

It's absolutely sickening.


38 posted on 07/21/2006 1:12:22 PM PDT by Stoat (Rice / Coulter 2008: Smart Ladies for a Strong America)
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To: Secret Agent Man
the law is on her side if she is dressed like a slut, gets what she deserves

I would nitpick if you'll let me?

I would change it to " the law is on her side if she is dressed like a slut, gets what she deserves looks to be asking for ".

39 posted on 07/21/2006 1:14:05 PM PDT by DJ MacWoW (If you think you know what's coming next....You don't know Jack.)
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To: DJ MacWoW

Gotcha, if I don't agree with you, I'm defending the trickster. That, of course, is a crock.

Are you really suggesting that your reaction to [fill in the blank] is not something you control?

You want to focus on the actions of the gender bender, that's fine, but don't pretend that an appropriate response is violence under those circumstances.


40 posted on 07/21/2006 1:52:37 PM PDT by dmz
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To: dmz
You want to focus on the actions of the gender bender, that's fine, but don't pretend that an appropriate response is violence under those circumstances.

How about focusing on root cause instead of denying it?

41 posted on 07/21/2006 2:00:23 PM PDT by DJ MacWoW (If you think you know what's coming next....You don't know Jack.)
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To: wideawake

L-O-L-A Lola! LOL!


42 posted on 07/21/2006 2:02:33 PM PDT by colorado tanker
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To: DJ MacWoW

OK. The root cause, as I see it, is going to bars / clubs / whatever and "hooking up" with total strangers.

The gender bender would have no one to trick without someone looking for sex with strangers. I think it is you denying the root cause.

But, let's face it, we won't find agreement on this topic. You have earnestly defended your point, as I have done. You think I'm wrong, and I think you're wrong.

As I tell my wife of 17 years on a regular basis, when discussing our single friends, God I'm glad I'm not in that game anymore. I certainly exercised crappy judgement on more than one occasion (lost count after using all fingers and toes), but I tried to never hold anyone but myself responsible for my actions.


43 posted on 07/21/2006 2:09:07 PM PDT by dmz
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To: All
Readers of this thread may also be interested in this item:

Gays accused of discrimination in resort town

Gays accused of discrimination in resort town

44 posted on 07/21/2006 2:30:06 PM PDT by Stoat (Rice / Coulter 2008: Smart Ladies for a Strong America)
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To: dmz
The gender bender would have no one to trick without someone looking for sex with strangers.

You're kidding. It's all the strangers fault because they allow themselves to be tricked? You mean if a man dresses as a woman it's the victims fault for being tricked? LOLOL

You DO realise that the tricksters go to straight bars to pickup straights, right? And none of it's their fault?

45 posted on 07/21/2006 2:42:50 PM PDT by DJ MacWoW (If you think you know what's coming next....You don't know Jack.)
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To: Stoat

It is an old fetish among some homosexuals.

They call it seducing "rough trade". They know they risk violent reprisal for their deception, that is part of the kink.

And yes it is akin to rape in that it is not consensual.


46 posted on 07/21/2006 2:44:51 PM PDT by weegee (Call Ted Kennedy's office and tell them you would've called 10 hours ago but couldn't get to a phone)
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To: weegee
It is an old fetish among some homosexuals.

They call it seducing "rough trade". They know they risk violent reprisal for their deception, that is part of the kink.

WOW....I remember back in the 1980's there was a record label specializing in punk / experimental music called Rough Trade.  I just assumed that it was a reference to the type of artists they were signing having a "rough" time getting any "trade" from the dominant music culture of the time, and I didn't think anything more of it.  I had NO IDEA that all this time it was referring to something so very ugly and sinister as this.

"Duh! @ Me  :-(

And yes it is akin to rape in that it is not consensual.

Agreed...I definitely view it as a sexual assault, and it should be prosecuted as such.  It seems that normal healthy men are expected to just deal with this as part of life, because it's so very politically incorrect to suggest that a man's sexual identity has any value or relevance.

47 posted on 07/21/2006 3:02:33 PM PDT by Stoat (Rice / Coulter 2008: Smart Ladies for a Strong America)
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To: DJ MacWoW

Yeah, that's more accurate, good correction. :)


48 posted on 07/21/2006 8:32:28 PM PDT by Secret Agent Man
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To: DBeers

Very interesting discussion on the thread.


49 posted on 07/21/2006 8:49:27 PM PDT by little jeremiah
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To: Stoat

It doesn't take a locksmith to tell the difference between a combination lock and a keyhole.


50 posted on 07/22/2006 8:33:51 AM PDT by Old Professer (The critic writes with rapier pen, dips it twice, and writes again.)
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