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Defanging Hezbollah: A Directed Energy Defense Could Help
The Heritage Foundation ^ | July 20, 2006 | James Jay Carafano

Posted on 07/22/2006 3:07:27 AM PDT by Paul Ross

Defanging Hezbollah: A Directed Energy Defense Could Help

by James Jay Carafano, Ph.D., and David D. Gentilli
WebMemo #1169

July 20, 2006 |

Hezbollah’s Katyusha rocket attacks have killed and wounded dozens of Israelis, destroyed property, and sent thousands to bomb shelters. They threaten to plunge the entire region into conflict. There is a way to shoot these missiles out of the sky, limiting the danger to innocents and mitigating the serious threat of one of the region’s most dangerous terrorist groups. The U.S. Army and Israeli Defense Ministry have a joint program that has developed a high-energy laser that can do the job, but they have been slow to deploy the system. The United States should ready the system for operational use as quickly as possible and make it available to the Israeli Defense Forces.

A Known Threat and a Known Countermeasure
Katyusha multiple rocket launchers were first fielded by the Soviets during World War II. They fire a primitive, short-range unguided rocket that is not very accurate. They have only limited military utility but are perfect for terror. Hezbollah has a vast stockpile of Katyushas.

This threat is not new, and the United States and Israel have been working on countermeasures for over a decade. In 1996, the U.S. Army and the Israeli Ministry of Defense began joint development of a system, the Tactical High Energy Laser (THEL), to defend against the types of rockets Hezbollah is using against Israel today. The Army terminated development of the system in 2006 because of technical complexities and lack of mobility. It wasn’t really ready for the battlefield. There is a “relocatable” version of THEL in development, but funding for the program has been limited. It will not be ready for at least another 18 months. So ten years after development began, there is still no defensive system in the field to protect America and its allies from terrorist rocket attacks.

The real tragedy is that the THEL works. At the White Sands Missile Range, THEL intercepted Katyusha rockets 46 times, as well as artillery and mortar projectiles, in single, multiple, and surprise engagements. The basic technology is proven and has been in development for 20 years.

This is a clear case of the perfect being the enemy of the good. If the U.S. Army continues development of THEL and deploys it, even with imperfections, Israel would have a defensive capability in place in the near future, when it is desperately needed.

The Promise of Directed Energy
Directed energy weapons demonstrate tremendous potential against all kinds of mortar, artillery, rocket, aircraft, and missile threats. Directed energy can be used against short-range threats like the Katyusha rockets being fired at Israel and against ballistic missiles in their boost phase. Putting a system in the field now will not only help Israel, but also provide invaluable operational experience on how to use these systems.

Congress should provide emergency supplemental funding to rush THEL into production. The Administration should direct the Army to accelerate the program as rapidly as possible.

__________________________________________________

James Jay Carafano, Ph.D., is Senior Research Fellow for National Security and Homeland Security, and David D. Gentilli is a Research Assistant, in the Douglas and Sarah Allison Center for Foreign Policy Studies, a division of the Kathryn and Shelby Cullom Davis Institute for International Studies, at The Heritage Foundation.

__________________________________________


The Mobile Tactical High Energy Laser has scored 3Array kills, including 26 Katyusha rockets.


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Editorial; Extended News; Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; Government; Israel; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events; Philosophy; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: 2006israelwar; abm; antimissile; bmdo; boeing; directedenergy; hezbollah; iran; israel; katyusha; laser; lasers; mda; missiledefense; nmd; northrup; raytheon; reagan; sdi; trw
Time to end the obstructions at the Pentagon and White House Budget Office to serious deployment.

Either fight to deploy...or get out of the way!!!


1 posted on 07/22/2006 3:07:28 AM PDT by Paul Ross
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To: Paul Ross
You cannot beat the speed of light !

Is that laser beam actually as wide as that mirror ?

2 posted on 07/22/2006 3:24:53 AM PDT by justa-hairyape
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To: Paul Ross

Meet the future of CIWS. This is why I believe little additional money has been put into Phalanx. Mach 3 ASCMs require a more immediate response.


3 posted on 07/22/2006 4:05:37 AM PDT by SampleMan
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To: Paul Ross

Just for perspective, the whole concept of directed energy, indeed all historical and contemporary weaponry, is to take energy from a source, launch and deliver it accurately, then obliterate the crap outta the target in a paroxysm of 1/2 mv^2 (or heat) violence. Controlled energy launch here...to uncontrolled energy arrival there.
There is another kind of weapon that is spiritual and is unknown by national armies. This is another kind of violence and delivers another kind of energy.
I agree with the post. The Middle East might be a good place to test and improve such a weapon.


4 posted on 07/22/2006 4:21:44 AM PDT by langleyaction
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To: Paul Ross

I wonder how good it is at swatting houseflies. I could use a new swatter.


5 posted on 07/22/2006 4:28:39 AM PDT by Tom Bombadil
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To: Paul Ross
I strongly support the development of directed energy weapons, but this article glosses over the difficulties in deploying the THEL. It is a chemically powered device, that requires large quantities of highly toxic chemicals for operation. These must be delivered to the site, used safely, and the residue safely removed. It is currently not feasible to deploy these devices into remote sites, or even to populated sites.
6 posted on 07/22/2006 4:46:25 AM PDT by norwaypinesavage
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To: Paul Ross

Interesting. Thanks for posting.


7 posted on 07/22/2006 4:53:15 AM PDT by PGalt
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To: Paul Ross

While directed energy weapons might solve many issues it can never be the technological cure all its supporters claim it to be.

Always remember the final battlefield and the only one that counts is in the human mind. “Winning hearts and minds”, to quote a saying from Vietnam, is the real key to understanding World War IV.

For those who are trying to stand on the sidelines (they just want rice in their rice bowls) you try to win their hearts. Get them to understand it is in their best interest to support.

For those who are carrying a gun and are killing your troops (they are true believers of the cause) you try to win their minds. Get them to understand that their individual survival means giving up the true belief. You do this by killing them every chance you get. The survivors, their leadership, will get the message and either stop trying to kill you (a truce), convert (peace) or get exterminated (peace).

Unfortunately this has been the history of armed conflict. And man has not evolved sufficiently to change this harsh reality.


8 posted on 07/22/2006 4:59:18 AM PDT by Nip (SPECTRE - Whistling death from the darkness of night.)
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To: norwaypinesavage
It is currently not feasible to deploy these devices into remote sites,

The fixed installation design could easily be stationed in three locations in Israel, North, South and Middle to provide total coverage. Being such a ridiculously small country, a mobile system is a complete waste of money. Fixed is the way to go for them.

...or even to populated sites.

Scrubbers solve that. And better "toxic chemicals" (can you say gasoline truck?) rolling around their streets in tankers than Katyusha's raining down on their houses and industry...

The Deuterium Flouride and combustion by-products are not serious issues. Residue removal maintenance issues in an operationally deployed system are easily manageable.

The real issue was keeping the mirrors cool. And the fixed installation allowed for an effective approach to implement a solution. One that is not easily translatable to a mobile platform.

Deploy it now. Its better than nothing.

9 posted on 07/22/2006 5:06:27 AM PDT by Paul Ross (We cannot be for lawful ordinances and for an alien conspiracy at one and the same moment.-Cicero)
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To: justa-hairyape
You cannot beat the speed of light ! Is that laser beam actually as wide as that mirror ?

Yes.


MTHEL testbed beam director during laser firing. In this infrared photo, the MTHEL testbed high-energy laser beam can be seen as it is projected by the beam director at a Katyusha rocket in flight.

10 posted on 07/22/2006 5:08:47 AM PDT by Paul Ross (We cannot be for lawful ordinances and for an alien conspiracy at one and the same moment.-Cicero)
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To: Paul Ross

How about swamping the defense? Can this handle a large volume of fire or will it overheat?


11 posted on 07/22/2006 5:16:47 AM PDT by MNJohnnie (Fire Murtha Now! Spread the word. Support Diana Irey. http://www.irey.com/)
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To: MNJohnnie
It can handle it. Heating is an issue, but just like your car, there is a cooling system that makes it manageable.

As far as swamping the defense, that is basically a non-winner. Unlike ballistic interceptors. The rate of fire, azimuth, slewing across the horizon are all pretty impressive.

It can even nail inbound artillery shells...

"As the nation's only laser weapon, the THEL testbed has shot down a variety of threats since 2000, showing its versatility by destroying about three dozen targets, ranging from Katyusha rockets to artillery shells and large-caliber rockets, and now mortar threats as well."

Here is a depiction of the fixed installation:


12 posted on 07/22/2006 5:32:02 AM PDT by Paul Ross (We cannot be for lawful ordinances and for an alien conspiracy at one and the same moment.-Cicero)
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To: langleyaction
There is another kind of weapon that is spiritual and is unknown by national armies.

Just wondering if you could elaborate.

13 posted on 07/22/2006 5:53:36 AM PDT by Dark Skies
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To: Paul Ross
Defanging Hezbollah: A Directed Energy Defense Could Help

MOVE 'ZOT'. FOR GREAT JUSTICE.

14 posted on 07/22/2006 5:55:20 AM PDT by RichInOC (HA HA HA HA....)
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To: Paul Ross

Most impressive.


15 posted on 07/22/2006 5:55:28 AM PDT by MNJohnnie (Fire Murtha Now! Spread the word. Support Diana Irey. http://www.irey.com/)
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To: Paul Ross
I'd like a mini-version for my key chain to eliminate booming car stereos while I'm stuck in traffic.
16 posted on 07/22/2006 5:55:48 AM PDT by Zman
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To: Paul Ross
That is impressive. Is it correct to assume that the kill rate is limited by the length of the 'kill exposure' required for each type of target ? Sorry for making up the term 'kill exposure'. Don't know what they actually call it. So this baby is infrared also. Probably can cook a turkey in under a minute.
17 posted on 07/22/2006 6:00:29 AM PDT by justa-hairyape
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To: Paul Ross
What in fact may be happening in LEbanon is that China and Russia are trying to get their regional proxies Iran and Syria to do something to cause Israel to show her anti-missle cards. For that reason, Israel chooses to absorb the blows.
18 posted on 07/22/2006 6:02:45 AM PDT by fso301
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To: RichInOC
Actually, the Tactical High Energy Laser, THEL, issues ZAPs!

....

Not ZOTs!

That is the province of the Higher Powers...


19 posted on 07/22/2006 6:03:45 AM PDT by Paul Ross (We cannot be for lawful ordinances and for an alien conspiracy at one and the same moment.-Cicero)
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To: justa-hairyape
Is it correct to assume that the kill rate is limited by the length of the 'kill exposure' required for each type of target ? Sorry for making up the term 'kill exposure'. Don't know what they actually call it.

That's okay. "Dwell time" is the nomenclature of choice in the biz. All are just verbal abbreviations to express this idea: Keep the beam on target sufficiently long for destruction. This dwell-time can vary based on target "hardness" or distance issues. Hence, the system has to be able to ascertain when the target either disintegrates or is sufficiently damaged as to permit transition to other targets. Thus in theory, as you surmise, rate-of-kill is limited by the length of that required dwell time. Most effective exposures have been extremely short in duration to have the destructive success, however.

20 posted on 07/22/2006 6:12:51 AM PDT by Paul Ross (We cannot be for lawful ordinances and for an alien conspiracy at one and the same moment.-Cicero)
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To: Tom Bombadil

Harbor Freight Co. has a battery-powered, racquet-shaped bug zapper (1500 volts) that my wife really likes for the occasional bug that sneaks in, on sale for $2.99.


21 posted on 07/22/2006 6:33:08 AM PDT by MainFrame65
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To: Paul Ross; namsman

I like the sound wave weapons that cause instant loss of bowel control. Let's see those deployed against the muzzies!!


22 posted on 07/22/2006 6:41:28 AM PDT by SW6906 (6 things you can't have too much of: sex, money, firewood, horsepower, guns and ammunition.)
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To: Paul Ross
Very cool. You could also probably vary the beam intensity fairly easily and obviously maximum intensity would be restricted by cooling rates of the mirror. Wonder if you can use smaller combined beams (4 small beams that come together on target). That might make heat more manageable. Just my 2 cents. Thanks for the info.

Later.

23 posted on 07/22/2006 7:07:34 AM PDT by justa-hairyape
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To: Paul Ross

And who or what would prevent the excremists from polishing their rockets to mirror finish to deflect away most of the laser energy? It is very cheap, too, in comparison with THEL. With shells and mortars it is more tricky as powder gases leave their residue.


24 posted on 07/22/2006 8:25:12 AM PDT by GSlob
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To: Paul Ross
Watch the dynamics change once the Air-born Laser is deployed. The devices currently available are effective. However, let the Syria and Iran blow their cash showing the world what a nuisance they are. When it comes to Judgment Day, we will have all our pieces in place and they will have no idea how to neutralize their ability.
25 posted on 07/22/2006 9:21:51 AM PDT by jonrick46
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To: GSlob
And who or what would prevent the excremists from polishing their rockets to mirror finish to deflect away most of the laser energy?

Because it doesn't work. This has been tested. It fails because there is too much infrared absorption and "shock kill" destroying the booster structural integrity. This countermeasure was always cavalierly postulated by the bozos at the FAS, Federation of American Scientists, a liberal anti-defense unthink tank (with few real scientists) which the MSM relied on to oppose SDI. Surprising they never admitted when they were debunked.

It is very cheap, too, in comparison with THEL.

Not since it doesn't work.

With shells and mortars it is more tricky as powder gases leave their residue.

Doesn't work for those reasons...and the above. Infrared absorption can't be deflected with mirror finish.

26 posted on 07/22/2006 3:46:16 PM PDT by Paul Ross (We cannot be for lawful ordinances and for an alien conspiracy at one and the same moment.-Cicero)
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To: Paul Ross

There are infrared/visual mirrors in the lab, and so there are the mirror materials, some of very high reflectivity. IR and visible light lasers have such mirrors as their parts, so right there one has all the necessary coating materials - no need to re-invent the wheel.


27 posted on 07/22/2006 4:06:18 PM PDT by GSlob
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To: MainFrame65

An indoor bug zapper?


28 posted on 07/22/2006 4:56:59 PM PDT by sinanju
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To: Paul Ross
"shock kill"

Some very interesting physics going on there no doubt.

29 posted on 07/22/2006 5:32:34 PM PDT by justa-hairyape
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To: GSlob
The mirrors in the laser need heavy cooling to stay 'functional'. Same 'cooling' problem would apply to mirrored targets, I suspect. A mirrored target would just increase dwell time. Or you could just increase beam intensity or the 'shock kill' (whatever that is).

Concerning the FAS - IMHO There is no such thing as Liberal Scientists. There are in fact Liberal Political Scientists.

30 posted on 07/22/2006 5:39:15 PM PDT by justa-hairyape
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To: justa-hairyape

Laser beam diverges. Beam energy density on the target is much less than on the laser mirror unless the target is very close, so the heavy cooling on the target might not be necessary. And as for increased dwell time - these lasers work in bursts on the order of one second, maybe two or three.


31 posted on 07/22/2006 5:57:49 PM PDT by GSlob
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To: sinanju

" == An indoor bug zapper? == "

You betcha! Environmentally benign (except to bugs). Batteries NOT included, but cheap. If you get one, let me know how you like it.

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=40122


32 posted on 07/22/2006 6:47:37 PM PDT by MainFrame65
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To: GSlob

The burst mode makes more sense if you are looking to maximize 'shock kill'. Physical affects are probably slightly similar to a supercavitating underwater torpedo traveling through an underwater thermal break. Temperature and pressure differentials. Yes the beam energy at the primary mirror is going to be greater then the applied target beam energy. The main question would be, how much energy loss per distance, and that my friend is probably heavily classified. Would also be affected by atmospheric conditions.


33 posted on 07/22/2006 8:14:47 PM PDT by justa-hairyape
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To: justa-hairyape

Well, small lasers [easier to collimate] in rangefinders have beam divergence in the range of 0.5 millirad [aka MIL from mil-dot scope]. Assume the same here and you will not be far off. Thus at 5 km distance the beam would be something like 3 m in diameter. If at the source it is about 1 meter wide, then energy density at 5 km is 1/9th of that on the laser mirror.


34 posted on 07/22/2006 8:24:06 PM PDT by GSlob
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To: Zman
"I'd like a mini-version for my key chain to eliminate booming car stereos while I'm stuck in traffic."

I still think a LAW or a TOW are just fine for that purpose. Heck, a .50 BMG would do the job, for that matter! I'm a geek, but let's use proven portable tech here, ok?
35 posted on 07/22/2006 9:26:19 PM PDT by Old Student (WRM, MSgt, USAF(Ret.))
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To: GSlob
Since you are conversant with some of the issues, it first needs to be pointed out that the THEL has already proven as an capable missile, warhead, and artillery shell-defense. So the technical objections have already been worked through, albeit they pose issues of limits on range. The theoretical basis for managing beam divergence is discussed in here at note 48:

Richard Saunders, et al., Lasers Operation, Equipment, Application, and Design (New York, NY. McGraw-Hill Book Company, 1980), p. 10. For reference, The lower limit on the divergence (or spreading) of a laser beam is a function of the wavelength of the light and the size of the aperture. And divergence can be reduced by either shifting to shorter wavelengths (higher frequencies) or increasing the size of the aperture. Lasers whose divergence is reduced to the theoretical minimum are categorized as diffraction limited.

36 posted on 07/23/2006 7:13:36 AM PDT by Paul Ross (We cannot be for lawful ordinances and for an alien conspiracy at one and the same moment.-Cicero)
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To: Dark Skies

Hints of the character of the generally unseen forces controlling/manipulating areas like the Middle East are contained in the bible, specifically in the book of Daniel where the Prince of Persia and of Greece are mentioned. Concepts of this hidden warfare engaged by some few are not limited to biblical times. See the book "Rees Howells, Intercessor" - Norman Grubb, and "Radiant Glory" - Martha Wing Robinson. I am presuming there are others, only these two come to mind as I have read them.
Chief attributes of such warriors are love for the Savior (yes, Jesus Christ), very little remaining self-life, love for fellow man and an unflagging pursuit of the goal: destruction of evil and an ushering in of the Millenial Kingdom. None of this requires the carnage rampant with Islam.
This type of warfare is not engaged by the many, as so few are willing to lay their own lives down to the extent necessary. As you may imagine, such a stripping is not popular.
Of course, no national armies push this offense. We fight in the natural realm, since this is all we know.
Oh, you could also read Ephesians 6: 10 - 18, especially ver 12.
Sufficient elaboration?


37 posted on 07/24/2006 3:17:23 AM PDT by langleyaction
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To: langleyaction
Sufficient elaboration?

Yep...and I agree 1000%.

38 posted on 07/24/2006 5:16:27 AM PDT by Dark Skies
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To: justa-hairyape
Wonder if you can use smaller combined beams (4 small beams that come together on target). That might make heat more manageable.

It does. In solid-state laser assemblies, they refer to them as "fiber" lasers. Bundling a number together to produce a combined beam. It also helps with beam divergence. In a way, its analogous to the "Gatling Gun" approach. Which allows sustained rates of fire which would otherwise be unmanageable...allowing the unused barrels to cool.

Just my 2 cents. Thanks for the info.

You're welcome.

39 posted on 07/24/2006 6:06:31 AM PDT by Paul Ross (We cannot be for lawful ordinances and for an alien conspiracy at one and the same moment.-Cicero)
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To: jonrick46; GSlob; justa-hairyape; norwaypinesavage; Nip
Watch the dynamics change once the ABL is deployed. The devices currentlyavailable are effective.

Check out this follow-on news story:

Northrop Grumman Unveils Skyguard Laser Defense System
Defense Daily, July 25, 2006
By Ann Roosevelt

Northrop Grumman [NOC] this week unveiled Skyguard, the next generation laser-based air defense system that could provide speed-of-light defense for deployed forces, military installations, critical civilian airports, harbors, or industry.

Denied success on the ground, terrorists have taken to the air. Rockets and mortars rain down on U.S. troops and allies in Iraq. The threats are inexpensive, easily available, and even homemade versions have attacked civilian populations, for example, in Israel. Counter fire has often caused civilian casualties, which escalates conflict.

A single Skyguard system can generate a protective shield of about 10 kilometers in diameter, company officials said at a briefing at their Arlington, Va. offices on Wednesday. It can detect, track and destroy--at the speed of light--single or multiple threats from short-range ballistic missiles, short-and long-range rockets, artillery shells, mortars, cruise missiles, unmanned aerial vehicles, anti-tank guided missiles and man-portable (MANPADs) threats.

"We believe it could be produced in about 18 months," Dan Wildt, director of business development for Directed Energy Systems at Northrop Grumman's Space Technology unit, said. The initial system would likely cost around $150 million to $200 million, while orders for multiple systems could drop the price to around $25 million per copy. It costs about $1,000 a shot, basically the recurring cost of the chemicals.

Northrop Grumman's laser expertise dates back to the 1960s. Skyguard is derived from the successful Tactical High Energy Laser (THEL) Advanced Concept Technology Demonstration test bed developed by Northrop Grumman for the U.S. Army and the Israel Ministry of Defense in light of the Katyusha rocket threat to northern Israel.

"We never turned on the laser and failed to hit the target," Wildt said.

THEL claims 46 successful kills against single, multiple and surprise Katyusha rocket attacks, artillery projectiles, large caliber rockets and mortars.

Skyguard has next generation laser, power and computing capability in a platform that is a factor of four times smaller than THEL, which is based on 1980s technology, Wildt said.

"We never turned on the laser and failed to hit the target," Wildt said.


40 posted on 07/25/2006 12:18:19 PM PDT by Paul Ross (We cannot be for lawful ordinances and for an alien conspiracy at one and the same moment.-Cicero)
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To: langleyaction

God bless you and prosper you then as you endeavor to do His will in every way.


41 posted on 07/26/2006 9:08:04 AM PDT by langleyaction
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To: Alamo-Girl; jonrick46; SampleMan; Tom Bombadil; PGalt; justa-hairyape; langleyaction; Nip; ...
Check out this link on the video showing the MTHEL in action

At: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcmI6UnR4gg

42 posted on 08/16/2006 12:22:19 PM PDT by Paul Ross (We cannot be for lawful ordinances and for an alien conspiracy at one and the same moment.-Cicero)
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To: Paul Ross

The late Gunnery Sergeant Carlos Heatcock was a master of directed energy application.


43 posted on 08/16/2006 2:06:45 PM PDT by GSlob
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To: Paul Ross
Klaatu mirada niktu

Gort will take care of the Hezbollah!


44 posted on 08/16/2006 2:15:24 PM PDT by Night Hides Not (Closing in on 3000 posts, of which maybe 50 were worthwhile!)
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To: Night Hides Not
Klaatu mirada niktu

Actually, wasn't that Klaatu, Barada, niktu?

45 posted on 08/16/2006 2:47:50 PM PDT by Paul Ross (We cannot be for lawful ordinances and for an alien conspiracy at one and the same moment.-Cicero)
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To: Paul Ross
Actually, wasn't that Klaatu, Barada, niktu?

No wonder Gort wasn't answering my call! Thanks! (LOL)

46 posted on 08/16/2006 3:02:30 PM PDT by Night Hides Not (Closing in on 3000 posts, of which maybe 50 were worthwhile!)
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To: GSlob
The late Gunnery Sergeant Carlos Heatcock was a master of directed energy application.

I'm sure he was, and of all types!

Like R. Lee Ermey no doubt...

Click here for some hellacious Ermey-Isms...

47 posted on 08/16/2006 3:16:57 PM PDT by Paul Ross (We cannot be for lawful ordinances and for an alien conspiracy at one and the same moment.-Cicero)
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To: GSlob
You didn't perchance mean Carlos Norman Hathcock II?


SEMPER FI GUNNY
This site is dedicated to Carlos Norman Hathcock II, who on the tragic day of February 28, 1999 passed away.

48 posted on 08/16/2006 3:21:49 PM PDT by Paul Ross (We cannot be for lawful ordinances and for an alien conspiracy at one and the same moment.-Cicero)
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To: Paul Ross
Yep, him. Mea culpa for the typo in his surname. But one needs to look at the root: the definition and measure of victory is breaking the enemy's will to fight, not of his capacityto fight [where's a will, there's a way]. If one pushes the hezbollai away from the border, they'd use longer range rockets, or resort to suicide bombers, or do something else equally nasty. Thus the only meaningful measure of success against them is not the number of destroyed rocket launchers or of the rockets shot down, nor captured equipment or razed buildings, not even the number of captured excremists [later they'll get exchanged, and lopsidedly] - it is only and exclusively the number of hezbollai body bags. And body bags were the specialty of the late Gy. Sgt. Hathcock.
49 posted on 08/16/2006 4:03:48 PM PDT by GSlob
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To: Paul Ross

Thanks for the link. Very interesting.


50 posted on 08/16/2006 7:18:03 PM PDT by PGalt
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