Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

What if Black Holes Didn't Exist?
Seed Magazine ^ | 7/21/06 | Richard Morgan

Posted on 07/23/2006 1:05:35 PM PDT by LibWhacker

How an alternate theory of the universe exposes the 'war of words' that underlies modern cosmology.

Theoretical physicists have recently been frustrated by a bold hypothesis concerning black holes—specifically, that they don't exist.

In March, at the 22nd Pacific Coast Gravity Meeting in Santa Barbara, Calif., George Chapline, an applied physicist at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, gave a talk based on ideas he's been incubating for several years. His goal: to amend astrophysics by applying theories of dark energy and condensed matter physics.

His work reinvents black holes as so-called "dark energy stars," which are what is left over when matter transitions to dark energy as it passes a point of no return similar to a black hole's event horizon. That redefinition, if correct, would invalidate much of the intellectual framework of traditional black holes.

Chapline's ideas take inspiration from his colleague Robert Laughlin, a condensed matter physicist at Stanford University who won a Nobel for his work on quantum fluids.

Laughlin is quick to point out that the hubbub he and Chapline's ideas have caused "is a battle of words rather than a battle of science.

"In science, you decide whose theory is right (or wrong) by means of an experiment," he said, "not by polling experts."

Unfortunately for theoretical physicists, experimenting on the nature of the universe is not an easy undertaking. Revisionism of one sort or another is constantly occurring, due to the field's heavier-than-normal reliance on theories based on observation, extrapolation and imagination.

"In some ways our playground is too big," said Leonard Susskind, a theoretical particle physicist at Stanford and an outspoken critic of the Chapline-Laughlin theory.

"Practically speaking, much of our subject matter is inaccessible to direct experimentation," he continued. "It doesn't make the science any less valid—we didn't need to go to the Moon to know that it wasn't made of cheese."

But indirection, inference and, ultimately, guesswork all chafe against some of science's core values. Understandably, some researchers inevitably suggest less-fuzzy alternatives, which is how Chapline and Laughlin see their work.

"George and I made a very plausible case that general relativity, as we have observed it experimentally, could be perfectly true, and yet fail to describe a black hole event horizon properly," said Laughlin. "What would allow this to happen is failure of the relativity principle on very short-length scales."

His and Chapline's model, he argues, fixes violations of quantum mechanics—such as information loss and the freezing of time at a black hole's event horizon— in traditional black hole models. Laughlin notes that the argument may offend his peers, but that they have no valid criticism of his and his partner's arguments. He insists their redefinition is correct.

"The point is that there is no way to tell one way or the other right now," he said. "If there were, there would be no controversy."

The Chapline-Laughlin hypothesis will linger like most cosmological theories, which are only partially or indirectly testable as well as often incomplete and replete with corrections needed to describe the universe we actually observe. The process of pinning on these amendments can get messy.

"This is starting to bug a lot of people," said Geoff Marcy, an astronomer at the University of California at Berkeley. "You can end up with a patchwork that's so ad hoc, with so many after-the-fact add-ons and addenda and caveats, that you might as well throw the whole thing out."

Chapline and Laughlin face an uphill battle among the many theoretical physicists who have already devised their own fixes for the quantum violations of black holes either via string theory or a concept called "black hole evaporation," wherein two particles fluctuate at the event horizon of a black hole so that one is sucked in while the other is shot out, making it seem as though the black hole is emitting the particle, or "evaporating."

Samir Mathur, a physicist at the Ohio State University who has his own theories of black holes, which he calls "fuzzballs," has no use for the Chapline-Laughlin theory.

"I feel comfortable dismissing it," he said. "Their model does not account for the entropy of black holes, or for Hawking radiation. These are basic signatures of what black holes are. It appears that what is most appealing to them about their theory is that they are the ones who thought of it."

For his part, Chapline suggests his critics are predictably lashing out at him using what he calls "the first law of physics," where an idea is immediately derided if it questions well-ingrained notions.

"Experts don't like it when you tell them they are not experts anymore, that books they have written are obsolete," he said. "They don't like to have to learn new things."

Luboš Motl, a theoretical physicist at Harvard University, doesn't buy the idea that black holes don't exist. In fact, at Harvard, a NASA/Smithsonian partnership using the Chandra X-Ray Observatory has produced swarms of black hole data.

"Who wouldn't want to be the researcher who dismantles Einstein and Hawking?" Motl said. "That is seductive. But this is a matter of ego, not science."


TOPICS: Miscellaneous
KEYWORDS: astronomy; black; darkenergy; darkmatter; exist; geoffmarcy; haltonarp; holes; outerspace; physics; science; stringtheory
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-2021-40 next last
There are numerous embedded links in this article that I haven't bothered with here. So you might want to go directly to the source.

Sorry... The heat's making me lazy! ;-)

1 posted on 07/23/2006 1:05:38 PM PDT by LibWhacker
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: LibWhacker
"This is starting to bug a lot of people," said Geoff Marcy, an astronomer at the University of California at Berkeley. "You can end up with a patchwork that's so ad hoc, with so many after-the-fact add-ons and addenda and caveats, that you might as well throw the whole thing out."

Chapline and Laughlin face an uphill battle among the many theoretical physicists who have already devised their own fixes for the quantum violations of black holes either via string theory or a concept called "black hole evaporation," wherein two particles fluctuate at the event horizon of a black hole so that one is sucked in while the other is shot out, making it seem as though the black hole is emitting the particle, or "evaporating."

Pot. Kettle. Black.

What we have here is a pissing contest to determine whose "epicycles" are the least elegant.

2 posted on 07/23/2006 1:12:52 PM PDT by sourcery (A libertarian is a conservative who has been mugged ...by his own government)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: LibWhacker

But enough already about "Star" Jones,..........


3 posted on 07/23/2006 1:15:41 PM PDT by garyhope (It's World War IV, right here, right now courtesy of Islam.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: LibWhacker
"In science, you decide whose theory is right (or wrong) by means of an experiment," he said, "not by polling experts."

You should let Al Gore in on this, Prof.

4 posted on 07/23/2006 1:19:25 PM PDT by Steely Tom
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: LibWhacker

I dunno - they're going to have to come up with an alternate explanation for the fact that Algore's head bends light...


5 posted on 07/23/2006 1:19:33 PM PDT by Billthedrill
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: LibWhacker
What if Black Holes Didn't Exist?

There would be no gays?

6 posted on 07/23/2006 1:39:58 PM PDT by Bommer
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: LibWhacker

Since they cannot use what they see to adequately forecast the universe they come up with dark matter first and that did not provide enough mass to forecast what was happening so they have come up with dark energy that they say makes up from 75% to 80% of the matter or mass of the universe. The question I asked is how they know there is dark matter and dark energy if one has never been able to see or capture any of it? Or is there some other force that is driving the universe? Or are we a microscopic point on the head of a pin and do not know the difference?


7 posted on 07/23/2006 1:47:36 PM PDT by YOUGOTIT
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: LibWhacker

This guy Chapline doesn't believe black holes suck. On second thought, maybe he does.


8 posted on 07/23/2006 1:50:13 PM PDT by Zuben Elgenubi
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: LibWhacker
"What if Black Holes Didn't Exist?"

A lot of Union folks would be out of work, due to a lack of construction projects such as the 'Big Dig'.

9 posted on 07/23/2006 1:52:43 PM PDT by Tench_Coxe
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: LibWhacker

Black holes are thought to be at the center of every galaxy. Maybe they lead to other dimensions (dimensions unlike our 3 spatial plus time). Maybe they lead to other "universes" where the laws of physics are different.

Maybe that's where Democrats' brains come from.


10 posted on 07/23/2006 1:58:33 PM PDT by pleikumud
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: LibWhacker

Then we'd have to invent them.


11 posted on 07/23/2006 2:03:35 PM PDT by gotribe (It's not a religion.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: LibWhacker
"In science, you decide whose theory is right (or wrong) by means of an experiment," he said, "not by polling experts."

Except for darwinism

12 posted on 07/23/2006 2:06:57 PM PDT by mjp
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: LibWhacker

I think black holes do exist.

The nature of the universe without black holes becomes extremely exotic... to the point where just looking through a telescope at local objects might require a reevaluation of the world.

Then again, pointing the telescope up toward the stars might yield a different picture entirely.


13 posted on 07/23/2006 2:07:17 PM PDT by coconutt2000 (NO MORE PEACE FOR OIL!!! DOWN WITH TYRANTS, TERRORISTS, AND TIMIDCRATS!!!! (3-T's For World Peace))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: LibWhacker
we didn't need to go to the Moon to know that it wasn't made of cheese

Since when ??!

14 posted on 07/23/2006 2:19:36 PM PDT by mikrofon (See Hi-mag)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: YOUGOTIT
The question I asked is how they know there is dark matter and dark energy if one has never been able to see or capture any of it?

Well, that's just it; they KNOW it's there because they can measure its influence on the universe's expansion rate. However, they can't see it. Therefore, it must be "dark."

15 posted on 07/23/2006 2:21:28 PM PDT by LibWhacker
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: LibWhacker
Thanks for posting the article.

"In science, you decide whose theory is right (or wrong) by means of an experiment," he said, "not by polling experts."

One shouldn't determine the validity of a theory by taking a vote - but people keep trying! Michael Crichton has argued that consensus is a virtue of politics rather than science, and I think that is a telling point.

Unfortunately for theoretical physicists, experimenting on the nature of the universe is not an easy undertaking. Revisionism of one sort or another is constantly occurring, due to the field's heavier-than-normal reliance on theories based on observation, extrapolation and imagination.

"Practically speaking, much of our subject matter is inaccessible to direct experimentation," .... But indirection, inference and, ultimately, guesswork all chafe against some of science's core values.


I welcome this acknowledgment that some scientific endeavors are speculative. It’s about time! In economics, micro is better established than macro. Supply and demand is very solid, but I think we have a long way to go in macroeconomics. Certainly some aspects of physics are rock solid, but some aspects are not. Personally, I have my doubts about psychology in general. But none of this is meant to detract from researchers in particular fields. It’s usually the subject matter that is the issue. If you can replicate valid relevant experiments in the lab, that is great. If you can make repeatable observations in the field, without interacting with your subjects, that’s pretty good. But when you have little data, rely greatly on inference, extrapolate greatly, or interact with the observed phenomenon, your conclusions are speculative, and it is O.K. to say so.

16 posted on 07/23/2006 2:23:12 PM PDT by ChessExpert (Mohammed was not moderate)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: gotribe
Then we'd have to invent them.

Your post: simplicity+irony=genius

17 posted on 07/23/2006 3:08:17 PM PDT by cj2a (When you're pathetic, but you don't know you're pathetic, that's really pathetic.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: mjp; All

Wow, it took twelve whole posts before someone tried to hijack the thread into CREVO territory. They're practicing more restraint.


18 posted on 07/23/2006 3:08:38 PM PDT by spinestein (Follow "The Bronze Rule")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: LibWhacker
"Well, that's just it; they KNOW it's there because they can measure its influence on the universe's expansion rate. However, they can't see it. Therefore, it must be "dark.""

From reading the article from the dark energy folks and others and listening to their story on TV (Science Channel) they added the dark energy to their equation so it would reflect gravity as they and the present laws of physics understand gravity. Some scientist and others do not believe in the dark energy theory and instead think that gravity does not conform to everything as believed. So at present it is a theory which may be proved true or not in the future. However it may be something entirely different that is causing the universe to expand at its present rate. Just as the big bang voided all the laws of physics as it expanded much, much, much faster that the speed of light in the beginning.
19 posted on 07/23/2006 3:17:47 PM PDT by YOUGOTIT
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: LibWhacker

There was a time, back when I was in school studying physics, when there were no black holes. Neutron stars were on the edge of conceivability and now we not only have black hole stars, we have tiny black holes and black holes with interior structure. Who knows if we live inside a black hole; it has been suggested. If black holes are never found and eventually disappear again due to further discovery, they will go the way of phlogiston.


20 posted on 07/23/2006 3:18:38 PM PDT by RightWhale (Repeal the law of the excluded middle)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-2021-40 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson