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To: Mariner

I'm confused by your comments about boys being required to employ some decorum in their behavior, and how this is bad.

First let me say you will not find too many more opposed to affirmative action than I. I guess I have passed this on to my kids, (both girls), as my oldest declined the best of the scholarships offered her for graduate work in engineering, (4 years of full tuition and a very generous stipend), simply because it was for women only. If you're going to assert that she does not deserve her place at a prestigious top drawer university studying for a PhD in engineering, and that she got it because she was a woman, you have an earful coming. You do not want to hear the list of accomplishments that made this a possibility for her. It might harm your thesis that this is a girl's world. So, don't peg me as a feminazi. I could not be further from it. I'm much closer to Phyllis Schaffly or Dr. Laura when it comes to most issues. But I don't buy your thesis about boys and the example used to illustrate it is just stupid. Here's why I can't buy your argument.

On the one hand you praise the "rational disciplined approach" used by the military, and on the other you condemn a teacher for "disciplining" a student for highly inappropriate comments in a classroom. If you have not been in the classroom, you can't take this to its logical conclusion, that is, what would happen if you tolerated any and all trash talk coming from these kids mouths. The classroom would be a joke, or more of a joke than it can be in the current climate of indulgent parents who think their little darlings can do no wrong. Think these kinds of kids can make it in the military? I'd love to witness the kid asking the officer in charge why the hell he had to fall in and do "crap" like that. Believe me, this kind of behavior is not helpful in math and science.

Moreover, I can certainly attest to having witnessed both as a student and as a professor, that in the "hard sciences" you cite as requiring this type of behavior, it is rarely seen. In fact, you have a very large international community of men and women involved in these areas, and believe me, they work their a$$es off and don't give any lip. There is far too much work to split hairs over certain assignments. In fact, this type of whining is a good indicator that the hard sciences is too tough and probably not a good choice for this type of person, (male or female). Inquisitive? Yes. Argumentative? In aruing for or against a particular solution to a problem, yes, again, but not disrespectfully. This is a basic rule in the technology industry, where little is accomplished if managers let the creative process degenerate into finger pointing and fighting.

The problem with your reasoning is that the "inquisitive" trait you describe as being helpful in math, science and business, is very different from the disrespectful, arrogant traits shining through in the "why do we have to do this crap?" comment from the example in this article. So, what I might have considered an interesting topic fell completely flat.


34 posted on 07/25/2006 9:38:08 AM PDT by az_jdhayworth_fan
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To: az_jdhayworth_fan
First, nothing I said could even be remotely construed to detract from your daughter's accomplishments. Good for her. She had the opportunity to learn in an environment condusive to her nature.

As to the allusion that I SUPPORTED the referenced 10th grade male who was disruptive, another read of my posting will show you that I did not.

That said, his attitude could be used to illustrate 10 years of frustration at not having more respectful inquiries answered in a rational way. And to suggest that military TRAINING does not respond to such inquiry is reflective of your ignorance of the military method. Military training ALWAYS answers the "why" in a rational way...but the "why" is rarely asked, and never answered, under operational circumstances.

Now, the technology business is something I have a couple of decades of experience with (in addition to a decade of military experience). The "why" question is ALWAYS ASKED, and eventually, ALWAYS ANSWERED. Additionally, competitive behavior is generally, and culturally, encouraged. There are winners and losers. Winners are great and losers suck. Same with military culture.

Anethema to your feminine sensibilites, I'm sure.

36 posted on 07/25/2006 10:03:08 AM PDT by Mariner
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To: az_jdhayworth_fan
"I'm confused by your comments about boys being required to employ some decorum in their behavior, and how this is bad.
"

First of all...let me say congratulations to your daughter!
What a GREAT ACCOPLISHMENT!
You sound (and should be) VERY PROUD!!!

I am guessing that the above comment was more along the line of how I feel about school discipline.
I am not sure, however, but I will explain what I have seen in 16+ years in education.
First let me start with MY expectations of my own children's behavior in a classroom setting.

They will be respectful.
They will listen to and follow directions.
They will be quiet when it is time to listen and to work.
They will tell the truth.

We frequently say, "Sit down, be quite, hold still and listen!"
(just to name a few)

That being said, some behaviors which ARE NOT appropriate during class time ARE appropriate outside of the classroom.

Running/yelling/playing make-believe games etc...
Many times these "types" of behaviors are just labeled as BAD because they occur in the classroom, rather than misplaced.
For example:
We have a rule at our house that before you can "play guns or weapons or war games " with other children you have to ask their mom or dad first.
If it is ok with them..it is ok with us.
When my son first went to preschool he broke the rule of playing "pretend weapons" at school.
We supported the consequences for his rule-breaking and reinforced the expectation at home.
We DID NOT, however, support the words the preschool teacher used when speaking with our son.
Rather than council him regarding the classroom rules, and punish him with the explained consequences she said to him, "Playing violent games is bad. It is NOT NICE to play guns and swords, you are pretending to hurt and kill people."
(that is as close as I can remember).
I should also note that my husband was deployed with the Marine Corps to Kuwait/Iraq for a year.

So I confronted the teacher regarding her choice of words. I explained that she was conveying a "moral judgment" rather than just enforcing the rules (which I supported).
She COULD NOT understand the difference and got her nose out of joint in the process.
I tried to convey the idea that there are certain moral absolutes that we should be able to agree on:
1) Stealing is wrong
2) Being disrespectful is wrong
etc..
But that playing make-believe games of war, although not acceptable at school, WERE not wrong in our family.

She didn't ever grasp my concept, but at least I made myself clear.

Does THAT make any sense?

Anyway, as far as what I have seen in school these past years, there are many occasions where the natural occurrence of more "girlish" behaviors are celebrated and reinforced (as they SHOULD BE)...
sitting quietly, paying attention, working cooperatively, fine motor etc...
Whereas the opportunities for boys to be celebrated in areas in which they excel have been declining rapidly or have been eliminated.

(again, I HOPE I am making sense!)
56 posted on 07/25/2006 12:00:55 PM PDT by M0sby (((PROUD WIFE of MSgt Edwards USMC)))
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