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Clemson’s role as baseball host unfurls flag flap (More Confederate Flag)
Charlotte Observer ^ | July, 23, 2006 | Joseph Person

Posted on 07/25/2006 10:19:23 AM PDT by Colonel Kangaroo

Unless lawmakers remove the Confederate flag from the State House grounds, the road to the College World Series could become longer for Clemson, South Carolina and the state’s other schools.

An NCAA subcommittee is re-examining the flag issue after the head of the Black Coaches Association questioned why Clemson hosted regional and super regional games before advancing to Omaha this past season.

In 2002 the NCAA implemented a two-year moratorium prohibiting schools in South Carolina from hosting any pre-assigned championships. A year later the NCAA extended the ban indefinitely.

Now BCA executive director Floyd Keith wants college athletics’ chief governing body to consider broadening the ban to keep all postseason contests out of the state.

“At least from our viewpoint, there should not be any postseason events awarded,” Keith said Friday during a telephone interview.

Robert Vowels, commissioner of the Southwestern Athletic Conference and chair of the NCAA’s Minority Opportunities and Interests Committee, said an eight-person subcommittee plans a teleconference in the coming months to discuss the issue. The group wants to review the original moratorium and the selection process for championship sites in sports such as baseball and tennis, in which the highest-seeded schools often are chosen as hosts.

“The main thing is understanding the selection process and just seeing what’s what,” Vowels said. “Once we can understand processes, then we can go from there.”

The NCAA maintains the same postseason ban in Mississippi, which incorporates the Confederate flag into its state flag.

Greenville’s Bi-Lo Center hosted first- and second-round games of the NCAA men’s basketball tournament in 2002 because the bid had been awarded before the ban took effect.

Since then, however, South Carolina has lost out on several NCAA-sanctioned events.

• A cross-country regional that Furman had hosted for 21 years was moved.

• The ACC pulled its baseball tournament out of Fort Mill in 2003.

• Officials with USC and the Bi-Lo Center were turned down after submitting bids to serve as first- and second-round sites for the NCAA men’s basketball tourney.

“March Madness is March Sadness in South Carolina because there will be no March Madness here. And the NAACP is in lockstep with it,” said Lonnie Randolph, the NAACP state president.

Lawmakers have not addressed the flag issue since 2000, when a legislative compromise moved the flag from atop the Capitol dome to a Confederate monument on the north side of the State House grounds. Beginning in 1999, the NAACP asked African-Americans to boycott South Carolina’s tourism industry, an effort Randolph said would continue until the flag comes down.

In the meantime, the only postseason games that have been staged in the state have been at the conference level. While aware of the NCAA’s moratorium, the SEC allows its schools from South Carolina and Mississippi to submit proposals to host the conference’s neutral-site championships.

The SEC held its 2005 women’s basketball tournament in Greenville after a scheduling conflict at Atlanta’s Philips Arena forced organizers to look for an alternative site. This past fall the SEC cross country championships were run at Fort Jackson.

However, despite attractive arenas in Greenville and Columbia, event organizers across the state have had their hands tied when it comes to trying to host games in the lucrative NCAA men’s basketball tournament.

Said Randolph: “(Basketball fans) don’t drop pennies in your community. They drop millions of dollars in your community.”

Vowels said his subcommittee would study the issue of extending the NCAA’s ban to include all postseason events and would make a recommendation to the NCAA’s executive committee by the end of the year.

Even if no changes are made, Keith, the BCA director, believes the ban has been effective in drawing attention to the flag.

“It’s certainly an issue of awareness that has been supported and embraced by the NCAA. That in itself is a positive step from our platform,” Keith said. “Is it completely eradicated or something we can say it’s done? No. The issue is still there.”


TOPICS: Culture/Society; News/Current Events; US: South Carolina
KEYWORDS: cbf; clemson; confederateflag; crossofsaintandrew; dixie; leftismoncampus; naacp; ncaa; saintandrewscross; wbts
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The NCAA is a private organization. I can't blame them. Such a divisive symbol as the reb flag has its place only on private property. It has a similar effect to one large group of citizens as a statue of General Sherman holding a torch located on state grounds would have to another large group of SC citizens.
1 posted on 07/25/2006 10:19:24 AM PDT by Colonel Kangaroo
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To: Colonel Kangaroo

OK. who has the popcorn concession for this one?


2 posted on 07/25/2006 10:22:04 AM PDT by Hazcat
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To: stainlessbanner

They are still at it...


3 posted on 07/25/2006 10:24:06 AM PDT by RebelBanker (If you can't do something smart, do something right.)
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To: Hazcat
Clemson used to have a baseball coach named Bill Kaiser, and when I was at UNC and every time he went to yell the umpire the UNC students would yell out "Der Kaiser" and stand and give the Nazi salute.
4 posted on 07/25/2006 10:24:40 AM PDT by Perdogg
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To: Colonel Kangaroo

Maybe they could just replace it with the rainbow flag. That would make Jesse, the gays and the enviros happy. They are the only ones who count anyway. /sarc/


5 posted on 07/25/2006 10:25:22 AM PDT by saganite (Billions and billions and billions-------and that's just the NASA budget!)
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To: Colonel Kangaroo
Good 'ol Gephardt used the Confederate flag to rebel rouse in the state of MO during his bid for the Presidency. Until that time, no one had uttered one word until they were "told" they should hate this flag!
6 posted on 07/25/2006 10:25:54 AM PDT by elephant
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To: Colonel Kangaroo
Interesting how 'free-speech' sure has it control freaks.
7 posted on 07/25/2006 10:26:48 AM PDT by Just mythoughts
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To: Colonel Kangaroo; stainlessbanner

South Carolina ran the Confederate Naval Jack (what everybody calls the "Confederate flag," the rectangular St. Andrews Cross on the red field) up on the Statehouse in 1962. (By the way, y'know who signed the bill? DEMOCRAT Governor Ernest "Fritz" Hollings.)

In 1999, that flag was removed from the top of the South Carolina Statehouse. In its place, a battle standard--not the national flag of the Confederacy, a BATTLE FLAG a mere three and a half feet square--flies on a pole BEHIND A CONFEDERATE SOLDIER'S MONUMENT on the Statehouse grounds. If you didn't know where to look for it, you'd probably miss it. I know this because I worked five blocks from it in downtown Columbia for almost six years.

This is a bunch of crap from the NAACP and the liberal university administrators. I'm glad South Carolina isn't knuckling under to these race pimps.

}:-)4


8 posted on 07/25/2006 10:28:48 AM PDT by Moose4 (Dirka dirka Mohammed jihad.)
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To: RebelBanker

do they want to erase all of america's past history, I for one become offended when the BLACK NATIONAL ATHEMN is sung; it will never stop and is another ploy for victimhood status


9 posted on 07/25/2006 10:29:05 AM PDT by dubyawhoiluv
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To: Colonel Kangaroo

What do you think of the civil rights memorial that also sits on the grounds of the statehouse, near the confederate soldiers memorial over which the battle flag flies? The civil rights memorial contains the likenesses of civil rights leaders, including Greenville native, Jesse Jackson.


10 posted on 07/25/2006 10:30:24 AM PDT by SC Swamp Fox (Join our Folding@Home team (Team# 36120) keyword: folding)
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To: Hazcat
It was Bill Wilhelm not Kaiser.
11 posted on 07/25/2006 10:31:07 AM PDT by Perdogg
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To: Colonel Kangaroo; 2A Patriot; 2nd amendment mama; 4everontheRight; 77Jimmy; ...
South Carolina Ping

Add me to the list. | Remove me from the list.
12 posted on 07/25/2006 10:33:20 AM PDT by SC Swamp Fox (Join our Folding@Home team (Team# 36120) keyword: folding)
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To: dubyawhoiluv
do they want to erase all of america's past history, I for one become offended when the BLACK NATIONAL ATHEMN is sung; it will never stop and is another ploy for victimhood status

We already see the beginnings of a movement to ban the American flag since many hispanic immigrants/illegals supposedly find it offensive. It was predicted by more than a few on this very forum that if you roll over on the confederate flag they will eventually come for Old Glory and that is what is happening.
13 posted on 07/25/2006 10:33:42 AM PDT by Timedrifter
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To: Perdogg

"It was Bill Wilhelm not Kaiser."

You want Perdogg, I just have the popcorn concession :)


14 posted on 07/25/2006 10:33:46 AM PDT by Hazcat
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To: Moose4

"This is a bunch of crap from the NAACP and the liberal university administrators. I'm glad South Carolina isn't knuckling under to these race pimps."

There's quite a few of those "race pimps" and NAACP lovers right here on this board too.

You'll know them by the trash they spout.


15 posted on 07/25/2006 10:34:19 AM PDT by Leatherneck_MT (In a world where Carpenters come back from the dead, ALL things are possible.)
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To: dubyawhoiluv
do they want to erase all of america's past history?

Sherman is part of South Carolina and America's history too, but his place isn't on the state grounds of SC either.

I for one become offended when the BLACK NATIONAL ATHEMN is sung; it will never stop and is another ploy for victimhood status

The choice is not between the Black National anthem and the reb flag. Both are divisive and have no place on public property, but I'm not aware of any move to have South Carolina play that song on public property. I would be against that also.

16 posted on 07/25/2006 10:35:47 AM PDT by Colonel Kangaroo
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To: Perdogg

That's both hilarious and immature all at the same time! :-)


17 posted on 07/25/2006 10:37:47 AM PDT by CT-Freeper (Said the perpetually dejected Mets fan.)
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To: SC Swamp Fox
What do you think of the civil rights memorial that also sits on the grounds of the statehouse, near the confederate soldiers memorial over which the battle flag flies? The civil rights memorial contains the likenesses of civil rights leaders, including Greenville native, Jesse Jackson.

I wouldn't have a likeness of a living, not to mention controversial, man up there. But I would have no problem with a more noncontroversial civil rights monument up there more reflective of the consensus.

18 posted on 07/25/2006 10:39:30 AM PDT by Colonel Kangaroo
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To: Colonel Kangaroo

Oh please! Let's cut the "Can't we all just get along" crap. There are people here who would not be satisfied as a taster in a pie factory. The fact that South Carolina was part of the Confederacy is something that cannot be denied and should not be forgotten. South Carolina has a proud heritage as being a state that does not bow to outside pressure or buckle to public opinion. This is what the Confederate battle flag stands for and as such should remain on State House grounds as a memorial to that spirit.


19 posted on 07/25/2006 10:39:52 AM PDT by Livin_large
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To: Hazcat
The NCAA and NAACP have lost their minds on this one. South Carolina removed the confederate battle flags on the state house and in the state legislature. They simply raised one over a memorial to confederate veteran's and for this the NAACP continues its boycott of the state. And, therefore, its political correct lackey, the NCAA continues its boycott all over a flag flying over a confederate memorial.

Frankly, it reveals how leftist and unreasonable the NCAA and NAACP truly are.
20 posted on 07/25/2006 10:43:33 AM PDT by MBB1984
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To: Colonel Kangaroo
I wouldn't have a likeness of a living, not to mention controversial, man up there. But I would have no problem with a more noncontroversial civil rights monument up there more reflective of the consensus.

They don't care what you think. The civil rights memorial is there and Jesse's face is on it, the Confederate soldiers' memorial is there and the battle flag flies above it.

21 posted on 07/25/2006 10:45:45 AM PDT by SC Swamp Fox (Join our Folding@Home team (Team# 36120) keyword: folding)
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To: Leatherneck_MT
There's quite a few of those "race pimps" and NAACP lovers right here on this board too.

I don't usually like the NAACP's rhetoric on the flag issue. They often broadly depict every Confederate soldier of the 1860s as being a sleveowning racist and every current display of the reb flag (even in private Confederate memorials) as being the work of a slavery lover. But that doesn't change the fact that people have legitimate problems with the rebel flag on public property.

22 posted on 07/25/2006 10:46:05 AM PDT by Colonel Kangaroo
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To: Colonel Kangaroo



23 posted on 07/25/2006 10:46:30 AM PDT by meandog (If I were to draw the odious Islamic prophet Muhammad, he would have horns, a tail, and a pitchfork!)
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To: Colonel Kangaroo
Sherman is part of South Carolina and America's history too, but his place isn't on the state grounds of SC either.

Maybe not his, but Jesse Jackson is. And in some corners of the state, his legacy is nearly as bad as Sherman's - at least Sherman ended a war....

24 posted on 07/25/2006 10:47:56 AM PDT by Palmetto
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To: Colonel Kangaroo
Sherman is part of South Carolina and America's history too, but his place isn't on the state grounds of SC either.

In a way, it is. There are plaques on the State House showing the marks where Sherman's artillery struck the walls.

Heck, in a way, the entire city of Columbia is a monument to Sherman. You'll find VERY few cities continuously inhabited since 1778 that have virtually no buildings standing from before 1865. And most of the historical markers in Columbia contain the words "burned by Union troops on February 17, 1865" somewhere in the text.

This whole flap is much ado about nothing. It's a soldiers' battle flag, flying at a monument commemorating the deaths of thousands of Confederate soldiers in the war. The only difference between that monument and hundreds of others across the South is that South Carolina flew a flag from the pole on their Statehouse dome for 37 years before taking it down and running a similar one up at the monument. That's it.

By the way, this "compromise" to pull the flag off the dome and put one up at the Confederate Soldiers' Memorial was the original compromise that the NAACP proposed. As soon as Governor David Weaseley--er, Beasley--flip-flopped and agreed to the "compromise," the NAACP immediately screamed that it wasn't good enough, that no Confederate flags could fly on the Statehouse grounds, and voted their ineffective and laughable "tourism boycott." (The flip-flop cost Weaseley his job the next election and handed the job to a Rat for four years.) Well, there were 400,000+ black bikers in Myrtle Beach on Memorial Day weekend, just like every year...some boycott! }:-)4

25 posted on 07/25/2006 10:50:43 AM PDT by Moose4 (Dirka dirka Mohammed jihad.)
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To: Palmetto
Maybe not his, but Jesse Jackson is. And in some corners of the state, his legacy is nearly as bad as Sherman's - at least Sherman ended a war....

And he's got no business up there. That's what is so hateful about PC. It says that I can offend you, but don't dare offend me. But I still don't think that that negates the need for public politeness and consideration. Two wrongs don't make a right.

26 posted on 07/25/2006 10:52:53 AM PDT by Colonel Kangaroo
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To: Colonel Kangaroo

Clemson got to host the regionals because Clemson has a great baseball program. How hard is that to figure out?

When will Leftist (like YOU) ever tire of politicizing every last bleeding corner of American culture for the sake of imposing your pink-laced sanctimony on everyone else? Nobody is forcing baseballplayers or you to march around the SC capitol grounds until you find the confederate monument and salute. If you don't like it, don't go there. Problem sovled.

And as for the NCAA being a private organization, it's funded, in part, with dues from taxpayer supported state schools, including those of South Carolina. I suppose if they wanted to, the bureaucrats who run it could exclude Clemson from the tournament, but it would be a far less interesting tournament without one of the consistantly best programs in the country.


27 posted on 07/25/2006 10:54:07 AM PDT by YCTHouston
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To: saganite

There is no bottom to the NCAA's insanity. Basically, 12-15 nerdy college professors are on a committee which arbitrarily dishes out sanctions against schools and/or states which are deemed to be practicing political incorrectness.

Illinois and North Dakota can't have Indian mascots because it shows insensitivity, yet these pompous proclamations are handed down from the hallowed halls of the NCAA home office, conveniently located in......drum roll please......INDIANapolis, INDIANa !!!

The hypocrisy is mind boggling. The raw abuse of power is absurd. But, most troubling of all is that suuposedly grown men are willing to grab their ankles whenever the NCAA says bend over, because failure to do so will be punished by the loss of intercollegiate athletic events at dear old State U.

I don't know how some "sports fans" can bear to look in the mirror.


28 posted on 07/25/2006 10:57:27 AM PDT by colonel mosby
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To: Livin_large
The fact that South Carolina was part of the Confederacy is something that cannot be denied and should not be forgotten. South Carolina has a proud heritage as being a state that does not bow to outside pressure or buckle to public opinion. This is what the Confederate battle flag stands for

I believe that there were a lot of honest-hearted ordinary Southern men who died for that. But I think that the underlying cause of the rebellion was the material selfishness of a relatively small group of slaveowners who manipulated events. And when events got hard for the Confederacy, the relatively quick collapse of the CSA showed that the rebellion never really had that much public support anyhow.

29 posted on 07/25/2006 11:00:38 AM PDT by Colonel Kangaroo
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To: Colonel Kangaroo

The only appropriate reply I can come up with for this contrived PC crap is to put my own "rebel" flag on display.

I bought it a while ago, after the PC Nazi's managed to get Confederate flags removed from many Confederate grave site's.

I despise those who seek to rewrite history, and the entire Confederate Flag "issue" is based on twisting history.


30 posted on 07/25/2006 11:03:10 AM PDT by Richard-SIA ("The natural progress of things is for government to gain ground and for liberty to yield" JEFFERSON)
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To: Colonel Kangaroo

I have legitimate problems with the NAACP on Public Property.

That's MY flag, MY heritage, MY ancestors. IF they can spew their filth on public land (which they frequently do), then MY flag can be flown on that same public land.

But then, we're all about diversity ONLY when it's black, hispanic or some other race/culture. Not when it's historically American.


31 posted on 07/25/2006 11:06:57 AM PDT by Leatherneck_MT (In a world where Carpenters come back from the dead, ALL things are possible.)
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To: Richard-SIA

I guess we should boycot cotton, since slaves picked cotton,correct? We must all wear Polyester and Rayon if we live in the South.


32 posted on 07/25/2006 11:07:16 AM PDT by RangerMoon
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To: MBB1984

If the NAACP is boycotting SC tourist areas, especially the beaches, will that be an overall plus or minus for the atmosphere at those areas?


33 posted on 07/25/2006 11:14:15 AM PDT by Jimnorwellwarren
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To: Leatherneck_MT
But then, we're all about diversity ONLY when it's black, hispanic or some other race/culture. Not when it's historically American.

Why do you appear to lump English speaking blacks who have been here since the 1600s with the Spanish-speaking Mexicans who are just arriving here. Historically, the slaves and descendants of slaves are as much American as any of us.

34 posted on 07/25/2006 11:15:52 AM PDT by Colonel Kangaroo
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To: Colonel Kangaroo

You're out for an argument and I'm not going to bite.

Read what I said. Diversity doesn't include most anything that is American. That's why there's now a move on to get rid of Old Glory, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson and a sundry other American Icons.

Starting with the Confederate Battle Standard was just the easiest way to set a precendence.


35 posted on 07/25/2006 11:20:19 AM PDT by Leatherneck_MT (In a world where Carpenters come back from the dead, ALL things are possible.)
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To: Colonel Kangaroo
My family fought for the South in the famous Yankee War of Aggression. For you to write that the South collapsed at the first signs of hardship is most laughable, and damn near insipid on your part. While there were many reasons for the war, few in the South owned slaves, or even wanted to own slaves. Most Rebels went to war to end the Yankee trade imbalances that the Yankee banks imposed upon them, and they tried to stop the financial bleeding from higher freight rates to ship goods North, eliminating them from the competition. Had it not been the slavery issue, the Yankees would have found something else to punish the growing South. What they did do is delay our economic punch for 100 years, but look at the tables now! I wouldn't trade our future for all of New England's', as the folks up there are mired in high taxes, stupid policies (i.e.; Demorat policies) low wages, crappy schools, and nowhere and no one to blame except their own stupidity. Study your history before making your outrageous insults, you might learn something actually worth knowing. You must have attended Harvard or something just as rotten.
36 posted on 07/25/2006 11:23:05 AM PDT by geezerwheezer (get up boys, we're burnin' daylight!!!)
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To: Leatherneck_MT
You're out for an argument and I'm not going to bite.

You might be right. :)

37 posted on 07/25/2006 11:24:52 AM PDT by Colonel Kangaroo
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To: Hazcat
OK. who has the popcorn concession for this one?

Don't I wish!

38 posted on 07/25/2006 11:24:57 AM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: Colonel Kangaroo

I take second place to nobody in my opposition to the Southern rebellion, but Jesus, people, lighten up already! It's their damned state, let them fly whatever flag they want to.


39 posted on 07/25/2006 11:29:23 AM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: geezerwheezer
The reason the South is growing now is because the Union won the war. Under the old stagnant slave system, the South was losing ground.

With the large size of the Confederate states, they should have held on much longer. Jefferson Davis himself said towards the end that all the South lacked was will. But the South never was really united behind the CSA. Many were reluctant conscripts. many Southerners joined the Union army and many more would have if given the chance. Still more wished to be left alone. As NC's Confederate governor admitted, it was a revolution of the politicians and not the people.

40 posted on 07/25/2006 11:31:30 AM PDT by Colonel Kangaroo
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To: Jimnorwellwarren

It would be nice if we had fewer liberals on the beaches. The reality is that the only groups that seem to be engaged in the boycott are the NCAA and NAACP. The boycott has had generally no economic effect.


41 posted on 07/25/2006 11:33:20 AM PDT by MBB1984
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To: geezerwheezer
My family fought for the South in the famous Yankee War of Aggression.

Ooooh, boy. Here it comes.

Most Rebels went to war to end the Yankee trade imbalances that the Yankee banks imposed upon them, and they tried to stop the financial bleeding from higher freight rates to ship goods

So the song really goes, "Oh I wish I were in the land of equitable trade practices and low tariff rates...Old times there are not forgotten...Look away,look away, look away NAFTAland"?

Study your history before making your outrageous insults, you might learn something actually worth knowing.

I have, which is one of the reasons why I find posts like your's so amusing.

42 posted on 07/25/2006 11:37:45 AM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: Colonel Kangaroo
But I think that the underlying cause of the rebellion was the material selfishness of a relatively small group of slaveowners who manipulated events.

I'm not so sure I that I totally agree with this statement as it applies to the Civil War, but I would contend that the problems with the flag today are due to a relatively small group of individuals who want to manipulate events.

43 posted on 07/25/2006 11:37:52 AM PDT by Livin_large
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To: Colonel Kangaroo; All
Such a divisive symbol as the reb flag has its place only on private property.

It is laughable that some find the flag divisive and offensive yet have no objection to the Confederate Memorial over which it flies.

44 posted on 07/25/2006 11:42:56 AM PDT by Between the Lines (Be careful how you live your life, it may be the only gospel anyone reads.)
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To: MBB1984

I was in Virginia Beach during the mid-90's greek weeks. Not a family friendly crowd and plenty of folks expecting a nice vacation were turned-off permanently to the area after what they saw.


45 posted on 07/25/2006 12:01:52 PM PDT by Jimnorwellwarren
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To: Moose4; RebelBanker
South Carolina accommodations tax receipts increased $3.5 million during the boycott period, and admissions tax collections grew $2.5 million according to the South Carolina Department of Parks, Recreation & Tourism.

If the boycott is any indication of how the NAACP is run, they are worse shape than I thought.

46 posted on 07/25/2006 12:04:47 PM PDT by stainlessbanner
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To: Between the Lines
It is laughable that some find the flag divisive and offensive yet have no objection to the Confederate Memorial over which it flies.

Once we give in and get rid of the flag, the memorial will be the next thing they want removed.

47 posted on 07/25/2006 12:05:39 PM PDT by Livin_large
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To: Colonel Kangaroo
Personally, I believe that the anti-flag folks should choose another tactic: make their OWN confederate flag out of the colors of the gay pride flag:

I think that the NCAA made the right decision. While the confederate flag may mean "heritage" and "freedom" to many white folks south of the Mason-Dixon line, it means treason to American nationalists and slavery/segregation for many black Americans.

48 posted on 07/25/2006 12:08:48 PM PDT by Clemenza (I don't want the world, I just want YOUR half!)
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To: Colonel Kangaroo
First person I ever heard that thinks the CSA was larger and should have fought longer.
CSA Union
Population 9 million 22 million
Value of Improved Land $2B $5B
No. Textile Factories 150 900
No. Persons Manufacturing Clothing 2000 100,000
Import Value $331M $31M
Source: http://www.americanrevwar.homestead.com/files/civwar/confed.html
*Numbers for 1860

49 posted on 07/25/2006 12:20:32 PM PDT by stainlessbanner
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To: Colonel Kangaroo

>But that doesn't change the fact that people have legitimate problems with the rebel flag on public property.<

So you would advocate moving them from Gettysburg,Viksburg,Chicamauga,Lookout Mtn,etc?


50 posted on 07/25/2006 12:23:40 PM PDT by Blessed
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