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New Finding Challenges Tour Champís Claim (Landis - Tour De France)
NY Times ^ | 8-1-06 | Juliet Macur

Posted on 08/01/2006 9:21:24 AM PDT by jdm

Tests performed on the cyclist Floyd Landis’s initial urine sample showed that some of the testosterone in his body had come from an external source and was not produced by his system, according to a person at the International Cycling Union with knowledge of the results.

That finding contradicts what Landis has claimed in his defense since the disclosure last week that he had tested positive for an elevated ratio of testosterone to epitestosterone during the Tour de France.

During a news conference in Madrid on Friday, Landis said, “We will explain to the world why this is not a doping case, but a natural occurrence.” He explained that the testosterone levels throughout his career were “natural and produced by my own organism.”

Landis, 30, the third American to win the Tour, captivated fans with an improbable comeback. He provided the urine samples at the center of the doping inquiry after winning Stage 17 in the Alps with a long solo attack. That performance set up his victory, as he climbed to third place over all after struggling and plunging to 11th the day before.

His urine sample from that day was divided into A and B samples. Confirmation of the A sample result is needed for a doping violation to occur. If the B sample comes up negative, the case is dropped. But the finding disclosed yesterday, based on a more sophisticated test, shed new light on Landis’s failure to pass his initial screening, and he could be subjected to punishment because he had a prohibited substance in his body.

If the B sample comes back positive, Landis will face a two-year suspension from the sport. He will also be stripped of his Tour de France title.

(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...


TOPICS: Miscellaneous
KEYWORDS: armstrong; de; floyd; france; lance; landis; tour
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1 posted on 08/01/2006 9:21:27 AM PDT by jdm
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To: jdm

Not good.


2 posted on 08/01/2006 9:22:46 AM PDT by dfwgator
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To: jdm

Let me guess...the samples were evaluated by a FRENCH medical team, right???


3 posted on 08/01/2006 9:23:44 AM PDT by JimRed ("Hey, hey, Teddy K., how many girls did you drown today?" (Hello, I'm a TAGLINE virus. Please help m)
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To: JimRed

lol


4 posted on 08/01/2006 9:24:19 AM PDT by jdm
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To: dfwgator
Ruh Roh...
5 posted on 08/01/2006 9:24:21 AM PDT by johnny7 (ďAnd what's Fonzie like? Come on Yolanda... what's Fonzie like?!Ē)
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To: jdm
1) Why would someone do doping knowing that he would be tested, it doesn't male sense.

2) I don't trust France to treat an American winner of their race fairly.

3) If he was doping, strip him of his title.

6 posted on 08/01/2006 9:29:38 AM PDT by Lx (Do you like it, do you like it. Scott? I call it Mr. and Mrs. Tennerman chili.)
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To: Lx

That's why this story makes no sense..THEY KNOW they'll be tested...THEY KNOW Americans are under more scrutiny. I'm leary of this...but...who knows?


7 posted on 08/01/2006 9:30:46 AM PDT by Hildy
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To: Hildy

Exactly.
This kind of reminds me of the leak that one of Lance Armstrongs 'b' samples tested positive right before last year's TDF.


8 posted on 08/01/2006 9:32:39 AM PDT by Lx (Do you like it, do you like it. Scott? I call it Mr. and Mrs. Tennerman chili.)
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To: jdm
Simple cultural miscommunication here. See, outside of France, men naturally produce testosterone.
9 posted on 08/01/2006 9:33:11 AM PDT by thoughtomator (The worst thing about censorship is XXXXXXXXXXXXX)
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To: jdm

Only the French would think it suspicious to have testosterone in the male body.


10 posted on 08/01/2006 9:36:08 AM PDT by krewjay
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To: Lx

"1) Why would someone do doping knowing that he would be tested, it doesn't male sense."

I'll don my flame suit: I've only seen him interviewed once....and he didn't seem all too bright.


11 posted on 08/01/2006 9:36:38 AM PDT by jdm
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To: thoughtomator
See, outside of France, men naturally produce testosterone.

LOL! That's funny! Post of the day!

12 posted on 08/01/2006 9:38:12 AM PDT by soccer_maniac (My new blog: http://capitalistpundit.blogspot.com/)
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To: dfwgator

Someone commented that testosterone would not really produce an 'overnight' performance enhancing response. Taking testosterone or steroids would help build up muscle mass over the long term, but the effect would show up in months, not hours. There are other drugs that have an immediate affect, but they work entirely differntly in the body.

So why would Landis take testosterone after a poor performance in order to boost his performance trhe following day? It makes no sense. He wouldn't get a benefit in performance.

Something does not make sense here.


13 posted on 08/01/2006 9:38:47 AM PDT by WL-law
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To: jdm

A local sports commentator speculated that someone could have given him something without his knowledge, to sabatoge him. He mentioned the people handing cups of water out to marathon runners in NY.

But it seems highly improbable that an athlete like this would just injest something from anyone, especially knowing he'd be tested.

I dunno. whatever happened, we'll find out (I hope).


14 posted on 08/01/2006 9:46:38 AM PDT by cvq3842
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To: jdm
"I'll don my flame suit: I've only seen him interviewed once....and he didn't seem all too bright."

Landis is not particularly articulate, but I don't think he's stupid. For one thing, he's pretty new to the spotlight and isn't accustomed to doing a lot of interviews.
15 posted on 08/01/2006 9:47:05 AM PDT by Steve_Seattle
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To: jdm
Tests performed on the cyclist Floyd Landis’s initial urine sample showed that some of the testosterone in his body had come from an external source and was not produced by his system, according to a person at the International Cycling Union with knowledge of the results.

More leaked information rather than officially released information.

The International Cycling Union needs to start firing people.

The tests need to be verified. The accused needs the opportunity to contest those results. Only after the tests have been verified should such allegations be made public.

If the tests show that he is guilty of doping, he deserves what he gets, however they was this has been handled by the International Cycling Union shows the organization itself has serious issues that need addressed.

16 posted on 08/01/2006 9:48:03 AM PDT by untrained skeptic
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To: jdm
As an analytical chemist with some expertise in GC/MS, there are a LOT of things that can go wrong, especially in a portable lab like they are probably working out of.

Plus, under these types of circumstances, you're a hero if you find something, even if it isn't there (see Joyce Gilchrist).

17 posted on 08/01/2006 9:48:43 AM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum (Islam Factoid:After forcing young girls to watch his men execute their fathers, Muhammad raped them.)
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To: Lx
Exactly. This kind of reminds me of the leak that one of Lance Armstrongs 'b' samples tested positive right before last year's TDF.

--rimshot--

18 posted on 08/01/2006 9:48:48 AM PDT by frogjerk (LIBERALISM: The perpetual insulting of common sense.)
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To: WL-law

The question is:

Testosterone is a unique chemical compound. God only made one. What is synthetic testosterone????


19 posted on 08/01/2006 9:49:33 AM PDT by BillM
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To: WL-law

also the level would not drop to normal the day after. when these guys dope the level would not be normal one day, abnormal the next, and normal the day after. something does not smell right in this situation.


20 posted on 08/01/2006 9:52:08 AM PDT by milwguy
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To: jdm
I'll don my flame suit: I've only seen him interviewed once....and he didn't seem all too bright.

You may be right...but taking testosterone, which wouldn't have an immediate impact, would be particularly dim.

21 posted on 08/01/2006 9:53:32 AM PDT by PBRSTREETGANG
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To: WL-law

Landis has been approved to use cortisone shots for his bad hip joint. Since urine tests only test for metabolytes of hormones, the cortisone shots could appear as a synthetic substance they claim is coming from abusing testosterone, which, as you have heard correctly would not help immediately much less provide the amazing gutsy performance that put him back into 1st place.


22 posted on 08/01/2006 9:59:29 AM PDT by UseYourHead
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To: BillM

"Testosterone is a unique chemical compound. God only made one. What is synthetic testosterone????"

Synthetic testosterone has a slightly different carbon composition.


BTW, IMHO, all this information leaking is pure BS. How convenient is it that the greatest modern single stage performance is coincident to the doping charge? I think this has been orchestrated to bring Landis down even though it will utlimately be proven false.


23 posted on 08/01/2006 10:12:12 AM PDT by ARW3A
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To: Lx; Hildy

At this level of sports, doping is very sophisticated, and athletes who are doing it are using highly skilled professionals to advise them on methods which will evade detection. But the tests are getting more sophisticated too, and also the athletes sometimes get arrogant and sloppy after getting away with it for a long time.


24 posted on 08/01/2006 10:19:07 AM PDT by GovernmentShrinker
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To: thoughtomator

Thanks, I needed a new tag line today!


25 posted on 08/01/2006 10:31:02 AM PDT by CedarDave (French report: Landis fails drug test. But, outside of France, men naturally produce testosterone)
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To: soccer_maniac; CedarDave

I'm afraid I can in no way claim originality on that one =(


26 posted on 08/01/2006 10:40:38 AM PDT by thoughtomator (The worst thing about censorship is XXXXXXXXXXXXX)
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To: dfwgator
I just have a hard time believing that he would be so stupid to take something.
27 posted on 08/01/2006 10:45:18 AM PDT by stevio (Red-Blooded Crunchy Con American Male (NRA))
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To: JimRed

Of course.


28 posted on 08/01/2006 10:59:52 AM PDT by MiHeat
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To: jdm

Mennonites pride themselves on the phiosophy that a "man's word is his bond." I will take Mr. Landis' word over some Frenchman any day. I hope he fights this with a team of doctors who show the test was skewed, altered or what really did happen.Until then, I believe that when he said he did not take anything,he meant it.


29 posted on 08/01/2006 11:03:32 AM PDT by lexington minuteman 1775
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To: ARW3A
I recall hearing an interview with a doctor when this story broke. He said that Landis had been given permission to take cortisone for his bad hip. The doc also said that the cortisone could cause the body to produce more testosterone. Is this true? And would it apply here, seeing as they're sayin' the testosterone came from another source?
30 posted on 08/01/2006 11:08:08 AM PDT by Dr. Bogus Pachysandra ("Don't touch that thing")
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To: whattajoke; CyberCowboy777; Aeronaut; jern; concentric circles; Petronski; Voss; stylin_geek; ...
Tour de France ping!

Please FReepmail me if you want on or off my Tour de France 2006 list.

31 posted on 08/01/2006 5:40:41 PM PDT by nutmeg ("We're going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good." - Hillary Clinton 6/28/04)
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To: Dr. Bogus Pachysandra
I recall hearing an interview with a doctor when this story broke. He said that Landis had been given permission to take cortisone for his bad hip. The doc also said that the cortisone could cause the body to produce more testosterone. Is this true? And would it apply here, seeing as they're sayin' the testosterone came from another source?

Interesting. I don't know the answer, but your post is very thought-provoking...

32 posted on 08/01/2006 5:42:01 PM PDT by nutmeg ("We're going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good." - Hillary Clinton 6/28/04)
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To: whattajoke; CyberCowboy777; Aeronaut; jern; concentric circles; Petronski; Voss; stylin_geek; ...

Any thoughts on post #30?


33 posted on 08/01/2006 5:43:24 PM PDT by nutmeg ("We're going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good." - Hillary Clinton 6/28/04)
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Comment #34 Removed by Moderator

To: nutmeg

I don't have the background. But for every expert on one side you could find a counter.

Probably posted before but the below gives more info:
http://www.procycling.com/news.aspx?ID=2351

and here's Forbes take about three hours ago
Test for Synthetic Testosterone Accurate http://www.forbes.com/entrepreneurs/feeds/ap/2006/08/01/ap2920315.html

and a view from Reuters
Doping-Hormone experts question cyclist's hormone tests
http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=sportsNews&storyID=2006-08-01T203826Z_01_N01464014_RTRUKOC_0_UK-DOPING-TESTOSTERONE.xml&archived=False


35 posted on 08/01/2006 6:29:34 PM PDT by bwteim
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To: Dr. Bogus Pachysandra

It doesn't matter. Synthetic testosterone is indisputable proof of doping. No human body produces synthethic testosterone. Also the body will produce anti-bodies against the synthetic testosterone rendering it useless over a long period of time.

Unless his hip replacement is a resounding success his bike riding career is finished.


36 posted on 08/01/2006 7:10:10 PM PDT by RichardW
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To: nutmeg

Actually, what I heard was connected to the thyroid medication...that it would have suppressed the epi levels. That would cause the ratio to skew the same way it would if the testosterone level was high. Of course, I don't remember where I read it or if it was a credible source....

The problem with this is that he's been taking both medications consistently throughout the TdF and the ratio was within the accepted range until after Stage 17.

I still think the guy is innocent, but if sample B comes back the same as the A sample I worry about how they'll be able to prove his innocence.


37 posted on 08/01/2006 7:16:37 PM PDT by Penny1
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To: BillM

Beer.


38 posted on 08/01/2006 8:10:30 PM PDT by irishtenor (We survived Clinton in the 80s... we can survive her even when her husband is gone.)
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To: Dr. Bogus Pachysandra

The Cortinsone and Thyroid medicine might jack with is Testosterone or Epi levels, but it would not account for the presense of synthetic Test in his body (IF that report is true).

THe big thing to look at here is this -- WHY ONLY THIS ONE STAGE???? He passed tests on 6 earlier stages And MORE IMPORTANTLY passed tests AFTER Stages 19 and 20.

What Landis MUST DO now, especially if the B comes back positive is demand that the STAGE 19 and 20 SAMPLES be tested by an INDEPENDENT lab and be tested for SYNTHETIC TESTOSTERONE. He should also immediately submit to Blood Testing to prove that he does not have SYthetic Testosterone in his blood.

This is the ONLY WAY he can clear himself. SYNTH TEST does not appear and one sample and then NOT APPEAR in another sample -- so he needs to prove that the Samples that passed the ratio test DO NOT have SYNTH TEST in them.


39 posted on 08/02/2006 4:36:02 AM PDT by commish (Freedom tastes sweetest to those who have fought to protect it.)
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To: nutmeg

An article by Derek Lowe PhD that explains, I think, how the testing works and some of the science behind the teststerone/epitestosterone ratio.

http://pipeline.corante.com/archives/2006/08/01/testosterone_carbon_isotopes_and_floyd_landis.php

Maybe the TdF list would find this interseting

Hat tip to Megan McCardle who is filling in at http://instapundit.com/ this week.

Regards

alfa6 ;>}


40 posted on 08/02/2006 9:25:07 AM PDT by alfa6 (Taxes are seldom levied for the benefit of the taxed.)
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To: alfa6

Thanks! I don't have time to read this now, but I'll definitely ping the TdF list to your post (and I'll catch up with it later).


41 posted on 08/02/2006 9:54:35 AM PDT by nutmeg ("We're going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good." - Hillary Clinton 6/28/04)
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To: whattajoke; CyberCowboy777; Aeronaut; jern; concentric circles; Petronski; Voss; stylin_geek; ...
Tour de France ping!

Check out alfa6's post #40

Please FReepmail me if you want on or off my Tour de France 2006 list.

42 posted on 08/02/2006 9:55:43 AM PDT by nutmeg ("We're going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good." - Hillary Clinton 6/28/04)
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To: Lx
Why would someone do doping knowing that he would be tested, it doesn't male sense.

You would think this would be a good argument, but no, atheletes dope up all the time. Look at Ulmrich and Basso - they knew they would be tested and they are at the top of their profession. It happens - all the time.
43 posted on 08/02/2006 9:56:55 AM PDT by Stone Mountain
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To: lexington minuteman 1775
Mennonites pride themselves on the phiosophy that a "man's word is his bond."

Well, pretty much all religions have a form of this belief. And there is no shortage of religious professional sports players to have doped up.
44 posted on 08/02/2006 9:59:57 AM PDT by Stone Mountain
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To: Lx

Why does any athlete take the drugs when they know they're going to be tested? A bunch of guys have been busted in numerous sports recently for various drugs, performance enhancing and otherwise. The simple answer is they thought they were going to beat the test, either they were convinced that what they took wouldn't be detected or they took something they were sold as a "masking agent" that was supposed to clean up their sample. Then they failed the test and found out your average blackmarketeer is slightly less trustworthy than a used car salesman.


45 posted on 08/02/2006 10:05:42 AM PDT by discostu (you must be joking son, where did you get those shoes)
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To: nutmeg

Dang you'er fast :-)

A little "LIGHT" reading for after work, eh

Regards

alfa6 ;>}


46 posted on 08/02/2006 10:11:42 AM PDT by alfa6 (Taxes are seldom levied for the benefit of the taxed.)
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To: alfa6

Your link doesn't work, but I had posted a link to the same entry on Dr. Lowe's blog earlier this am over on the Floyd Landis Test Discussion thread. Worked fine early this am (7:00), but mine is also not working now. I have a feeling if you said got it from Megan at Instapundit this morning, they probably were overwhelmed & took it down. Dang - it was a good, simple explanation about how they differentiate between real & synthetic testosterone in the IRMS test. Don't suppose you can reconstruct it from memory?LOL. I know I can't!


47 posted on 08/02/2006 10:20:38 AM PDT by leilani
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To: leilani

The good Dr Lowe is probably the victim of an "Instalanche"

As far as reconstructing it from memory HAHAHAHAHA

I was doing good just to read it :-)

Regards

alfa6 ;>}


48 posted on 08/02/2006 10:33:53 AM PDT by alfa6 (Taxes are seldom levied for the benefit of the taxed.)
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To: discostu
I think you hit the nail on the head. Athletes hear that other athletes like Bonds allegedly take steroids and get away with it and think they can too.

I'm still leery since it's a French lab and race. As other have pointed out, testosterone won't help you in the short term so why take it.

I hope it all works out correctly, meaning if he took the drugs, strip him of the title, if this is more French chicanery, drop the charges and clear the guy.
49 posted on 08/02/2006 10:35:54 AM PDT by Lx (Do you like it, do you like it. Scott? I call it Mr. and Mrs. Tennerman chili.)
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To: JimRed

The same one that went after Lance Armstrong.


50 posted on 08/02/2006 10:39:50 AM PDT by OrioleFan (Republicans believe every day is July 4th, DemocRATs believe every day is April 15th. - Reagan)
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