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The Human Factor: A man of science face Darwin and the Deity(Book by Head of Human Genome Project)
Weekly Standard ^ | 08/06/2006 | David Klinghoffer

Posted on 08/07/2006 10:27:04 AM PDT by SirLinksalot

The Human Factor :A man of science face Darwin and the Deity.

by David Klinghoffer

The Language of God A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief

by Francis S. Collins

Free Press, 304 pp., $26

-------------------------------------

Head of the Human Genome Project, Francis Collins is among the country's foremost author ities on genetics, a staunch Darwinist, and a prominent critic of Intelligent Design. He's also an evangelical Christian who dramatically describes the moment he accepted Jesus as his personal savior. If that sounds like it might be a paradox, read on.

Collins was hiking in the Cascade Mountains of western Washington when, as he writes, he found that "the majesty and beauty of God's creation overwhelmed my resistance. As I rounded a corner and saw a beautiful and unexpected frozen waterfall, hundreds of feet high, I knew the search was over. The next morning, I knelt in the dewy grass as the sun rose and surrendered to Jesus Christ."

Anyone who doubts that Darwinism may coherently be embraced alongside a faith in biblical religion will be intrigued and challenged by The Language of God. Besides offering a lovely, impassioned, and transparently sincere defense of his own Christian faith, Collins argues that one need not choose between Darwin and God. Indeed, he says, embracing both is the most profound and compelling way of penetrating "that mystery of mysteries," as Darwin called it, the puzzle of the origin of species.

He makes a strong and moving case for religious belief with the part of the book that is a memoir. Collins grew up an agnostic. After medical school, he treated a woman with crippling heart disease who relied on her faith for support. She asked him what he believed about God, and he was disturbed to find that he had no thoughtful reply. Another turning point came when, on a medical mission to Africa, he saved the life of a young farmer suffering from tuberculosis with a risky emergency surgery.

The man thanked Collins afterward and commented, "I get the sense you are wondering why you came here. I have an answer for you. You came here for one reason. You came here for me." The experience set Collins to thinking about the workings of Providence, God's oversight of our lives: "The tears of relief that blurred my vision as I digested his words stemmed from indescribable reassurance--reassurance that there in that strange place for just that one moment, I was in harmony with God's will, bonded together with this young man in a most unlikely but marvelous way."

His later, and historically significant, work on the Human Genome Project has mapped the genetic language, DNA, in which Collins believes God speaks His will for living creatures. Collins does a splendid job of clarifying for the layman what genetic information actually is. He explains how evidence for Darwin's understanding of the evolutionary mechanism may be observed in queer, vestigial features of the genetic code. However, if that mechanism was never at any point guided by a transcendent intelligence--as Darwin in The Origin of Species assumes it was not--this naturally raises the question of what need there was for a Deity as most believers understand Him. God has the right to command us because he created us.

Obviously in the background here, and the foreground too, is the Intelligent Design debate. Darwin and his followers advocate an unguided and purely material mechanism of natural selection operating on random genetic variation. Intelligent Design claims to find positive evidence that the mechanism was, indeed, guided--in short, that the software in the cell (DNA) did not write itself.

Collins's book rejects Intelligent Design as an "argument from personal incredulity." That argument, in his telling, would go this way: We don't understand exactly how the Darwinian mechanism could have produced certain aspects of biological information; therefore, a Designer must have done it. I believe Collins misrepresents Intelligent Design, and it appears that he hasn't followed the latest rounds in the scientific debate. But never mind. Let's assume he's right and ask: If Darwinism is the true resolution of the "mystery of mysteries," where does that leave God?

Something you'll often hear people say is, "Well, Darwinism doesn't mean God isn't the creator. Maybe evolution was programmed into the universe from the start. So He had no need to guide the process." The problem with such thinking is that it's directly contradicted by a major current in Darwinian evolutionary theory. In his book Wonderful Life (1989), the late Harvard paleontologist Stephen Jay Gould demonstrated what he called the "contingency" of life's history. Gould explained what an incredibly lucky break it was that Earth ever cast up intelligent life forms.

Wisely turning away from this doomed approach to showing God's hand here on Planet Darwin, Collins argues that we may discover evidence of His existence and love from looking to our own hearts, and to the heavens. In this he follows the lead of Immanuel Kant, who famously wrote, "Two things fill me with constantly increasing admiration and awe, the longer and more earnestly I reflect on them: the starry heavens without and the Moral Law within." The incredible fine-tuning of the universe's physical laws at the moment of the Big Bang, making existence possible against unimaginably high odds, must indicate that God had us in mind when He created the starry heavens. Collins quotes Stephen Hawking: "It would be very difficult to explain why the universe should have begun in just this way, except as the act of a God who intended to create us."

But doesn't this sound like an "argument from personal incredulity" of just the kind Collins would attribute to Intelligent Design? Here is Collins on the Big Bang: "I cannot see how nature could have created itself."

The same objection may be lodged against Collins's favorite demonstration of God's being and caring. This comes from the "Moral Law," the sense of right and wrong, of charity and altruism, which he believes to be inborn in the human heart. Where else could it come from, he asks, but from God? "In my view, DNA sequence alone . . . will never explain certain special human attributes, such as the knowledge of the Moral Law and the universal search for God." Darwin, among others, would disagree. In The Descent of Man he advanced an evolutionary explanation of altruism.

In his most satisfying defense of belief, Collins brings forward a clever way of reconciling an unguided evolutionary process with God as the Creator. He points out that God resides beyond the limits of time. Hence, what appears to us as evolution's unpredictable course was, from God's perspective, entirely predictable. It's a neat perspective--except, perhaps, if we ask whether an unguided process of "creation" is still "creation" even if its results were foreseen.

I am surprised that Collins didn't try another approach to harmonizing God and Darwin, an approach I find more promising. This one is brought forward by an Orthodox Jewish scholar who deserves to be more widely known outside Jewish circles. In his own new book, The Challenge of Creation: Judaism's Encounter with Science, Cosmology, and Evolution, Rabbi Natan Slifkin also summarily dismisses Intelligent Design. On the other hand, he offers a sumptuous variety of theological and philosophical approaches to reconciling Darwinian evolution with religious faith. Slifkin's perspective, while endorsing Darwinism, holds that what may appear random and unguided in life's history may not be at all.

His writing is too fascinatingly rich to summarize here, but a hint of this line of thinking may be found in a citation from the book of Proverbs: "[When] the lot is cast in the lap, its entire verdict has been decided by God." Or as a cryptic verse of a famous Sabbath hymn, "L'chah Dodi," suggests, in Slifkin's paraphrase:

The end of the deed is first in thought, which explains that the final result sheds light on the entire process. In this case, it clarifies that when a seemingly meaningless process results in a highly meaningful conclusion, one looks back and sees that the apparent meaninglessness was a mere disguise for the goal, which was actually envisaged at the start of the entire process. This turns Stephen Jay Gould's notion of contingency on its head. The unlikely course of evolutionary history with its ultimate product--us--actually becomes an argument for the emergence of humans having been intended all along. After all, the unlikely thing actually happened. But Slifkin's attempt at harmonizing would likely trouble Darwin, who assumed that the process not only seemed to be unguided but also was unguided.

Can we reconcile God and Darwin without changing the accustomed meaning of one or the other? I remain skeptical. Yet readers owe Francis Collins--and Rabbi Slifkin--a debt of gratitude for making us think more deeply about issues that often get swept away with trite, unexamined formulations designed to give us an excuse for not thinking. The theological and scientific paradoxes will not be resolved in a book review, nor perhaps in any book that has yet been written.

David Klinghoffer, a senior fellow at the Discovery Institute, is the author, most recently, of Why the Jews Rejected Jesus: The Turning Point in Western History.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; Miscellaneous; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: aliensdoodit; darwin; deity; enoughalready; fsmlovesyou; hatefulevos; humanfactor; humangenome; id; idjunkscience; ignoranceisstrength; intelligentdesign; junkscience; pavlovian
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1 posted on 08/07/2006 10:27:07 AM PDT by SirLinksalot
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To: SirLinksalot

IE? Intelligent evolution? Sounds goofy and also old hat to me.


2 posted on 08/07/2006 10:30:45 AM PDT by sine_nomine (Confidential to Bush: protect the borders. The first word in "illegal immigrant" is...?)
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To: SirLinksalot
Before the flame wars begin, let me be (among) the first to say I HAVE ACTUALLY READ HIS BOOK.

For those who have READ HIS BOOK and disagree with what he writes, I challenge you to refute what he writes either logically or scripturally.

I have my areas of disagreement with him/his thought, but they are trivial.

Let's try to have a civil thread.
3 posted on 08/07/2006 10:32:35 AM PDT by Blueflag (Res ipsa loquitor)
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To: SirLinksalot

For what it's worth, the author MAKES A SPECIFIC DISTINCTION between Intelligent Design and intelligent design; Creationism and God's Creation. He carefully segregates the thinking/theology from the 'movement'/politics. Also he is clear about his uncertainty (wisdom yet to be revealed) about a Deist or Theist model for God.

If you have not read his book, I challenge you to avoid attacks.


4 posted on 08/07/2006 10:35:53 AM PDT by Blueflag (Res ipsa loquitor)
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To: SirLinksalot

Francis Collins may be an Evangelical Christian, but he obviously does not know his theology. My best friend hass a PhD in theology from Duke and considered himself a theistic evolutionist. I spent a couple of years showing him exactly what the Darwinists are saying, and he now agrees their views are atheistic.


5 posted on 08/07/2006 10:36:10 AM PDT by GarySpFc (Jesus on Immigration, John 10:1)
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To: SirLinksalot

SirLinks -- have you read the book? just curious ...


6 posted on 08/07/2006 10:36:56 AM PDT by Blueflag (Res ipsa loquitor)
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To: SirLinksalot

I have not read the book. But I am curious if this ID theory falls under the Gap Theory--the theory that states the Deity created the universe at the Big Bang then the created "natural laws" played out in a micro-evolutionary processes until Satan rebelled in a cosmic war. Then the Deity RECREATED/REFORMED the world in six days...which is where Genesis picks up the story. And from there, as the theory goes, the micro-evolutionary process has played out since the recreation until "the restoration of all things" which constitutes the third and forth creations (spirit-beings created and world renewel)?


7 posted on 08/07/2006 10:41:00 AM PDT by sully777 (You have flies in your eyes--Catch-22)
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To: SirLinksalot
"I believe Collins misrepresents Intelligent Design, and it appears that he hasn't followed the latest rounds in the scientific debate."

Collins has issues with the Capital I Capital D movement and the argument of some of its proponents, he does not refute the role of God in His creation. He makes a decent case against 'the God of Gaps' -- where people explain gaps in knowledge by labeling them to be 'what God did' -- only to be undermined by subsequent 'fact'. Don't try to prove God by pointing to gaps in what we can currently explain is his point (because it provides ammunition to atheist and/or agnostic 'scientists''.
8 posted on 08/07/2006 10:41:25 AM PDT by Blueflag (Res ipsa loquitor)
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To: GarySpFc
Gary -- Collins' book is well-referenced to people who DO INDEED know their theology, like C.S. Lewis, St. Augustine and Billy Graham. I would counter that indeed Collins DOES correctly present 'theology' -- the study and science and knowledge of deity -- and those that attack what he says might just be founded mainly on the dogma of their religion (not their theology).

I challenge all here to understand what he says and present counter arguments in the Spirit, not from doctrine or habitual belief.
9 posted on 08/07/2006 10:45:28 AM PDT by Blueflag (Res ipsa loquitor)
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To: SirLinksalot

BTW, the second half of the title is "A Scienteist Presents Evidence for Belief".

This book is very sensitive to the believer, yet directly challenging to the agnostic or atheist scientist.

Be brave and read this book. Your awe and respect for God will only be enhanced.


10 posted on 08/07/2006 10:48:14 AM PDT by Blueflag (Res ipsa loquitor)
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To: Blueflag
Collins' book is well-referenced to people who DO INDEED know their theology, like C.S. Lewis, St. Augustine and Billy Graham.

Those are NOT theologians with the exception of Augustine, and his views were formed when theology was still in the development stage. His life spanned 354 to 430.
11 posted on 08/07/2006 10:55:15 AM PDT by GarySpFc (Jesus on Immigration, John 10:1)
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To: sine_nomine

Hominids preceded man, and hominids developed through evolutionary processes.

God is a spirit, as Jesus Christ says.

God made man in His image.

I believe God may have chosen that particular line of hominids to be transformed. It is a "spirit" that God incorporated into a hominid. A spirit, a Holy Spirit, that gave the new man an awareness of God and an ability to communicate with God through that Holy Spirit.


That knowledge of God is unique to man. No other creature has "evolved" such a capability, which speaks against it being an evolutionary development.

Such a belief in God is clearly the propulsive, motivating factor behind mans cultural, artistic, sociological, and technological development. It is that belief that has propelled man beyond simply being an animal.

The vast majority of the great feats of intellect and creativity were motivated by faith and belief in God.

We did not evolve a belief in God. Such belief was given to us by God so that we may begin the process of knowing Him, and worshipping Him.

Our belief in God appears to have begun at the same time as Biblical scholars believe man was created, approximately 10,000 years ago.


12 posted on 08/07/2006 11:04:51 AM PDT by Mark Felton ("Your faith should not be in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.")
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To: SirLinksalot
a staunch Darwinist, and a prominent critic of Intelligent Design.

"the majesty and beauty of God's creation overwhelmed my resistance

Man this has to be the most logically inconsistent position Ive ever seen if he believes the first the second can not be true ... even if he believes God program things to evolve to the majesty and beauty that he attributes to God that is Intelligent Design....

To be a staunch Darwinist, and a prominent critic of Intelligent Design then accept your own premise that unintelligent unthinking inert utilitarian forces acting on life, shaped things..you either attribute what you see to some intelligent direction or you don't

13 posted on 08/07/2006 11:05:59 AM PDT by tophat9000 (If it was illegal French Canadians would La Raza back them? Racist back their race over country)
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To: Blueflag

You may find this interesting, too:

Must We Have a Separation of Church and Science?

Listen to this story...

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5617850

Talk of the Nation, August 4, 2006 · Can a world class scientist also be a devout Christian? Some big names in science say "absolutely." But balancing a scientific career with religious beliefs does involve some challenges.

Guests

Francis Collins, author The Language of God; director, National Human Genome Research Institute (National Institutes of Health)

Owen Gingerich, author, God's Universe (forthcoming from Harvard University Press); senior astronomer emeritus, Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory; research professor emeritus (astronomy and history of science) Harvard University


14 posted on 08/07/2006 11:14:46 AM PDT by Matchett-PI ( Ignorance is correctable with education, but stupid is forever.)
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To: Mark Felton
"God is a spirit"

God IS Spirit - not "a" spirit. Big difference.

15 posted on 08/07/2006 11:16:16 AM PDT by Matchett-PI ( Ignorance is correctable with education, but stupid is forever.)
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To: Alamo-Girl; betty boop; curiosity; hosepipe

Heads up! This one could be interesting...


16 posted on 08/07/2006 11:16:44 AM PDT by TXnMA ("Allah" = Satan in disguise)
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To: Matchett-PI

yes, thanks.


17 posted on 08/07/2006 11:17:02 AM PDT by Mark Felton ("Your faith should not be in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.")
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To: tophat9000
tophat -- read his book. He takes issue with Intelligent Design (the movement and some of its thinking.) He has no issue with (and affirms) the Creator as an intelligent designer. When you read the book, as opposed to a review, you can see that he presents of valid argument. He mainly attacks the Intelligent Design movement from a "God of the Gaps" standpoint.

You would be premature to label Collins argument as illogical.
18 posted on 08/07/2006 11:18:03 AM PDT by Blueflag (Res ipsa loquitor)
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To: SirLinksalot

Christ said let NO man deceive you..... Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21.


19 posted on 08/07/2006 11:20:06 AM PDT by Just mythoughts
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To: GarySpFc

OK, we can disagree regarding who is or is not a 'thelogian'.

Nonetheless, his book is well-referenced with quotes from thelogians, theological texts, and people-you-just-might-respect-Spiritually. ;-)


20 posted on 08/07/2006 11:20:17 AM PDT by Blueflag (Res ipsa loquitor)
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To: Mark Felton
"Our belief in God appears to have begun at the same time as Biblical scholars believe man was created, approximately 10,000 years ago."

I think - contextually, it is more correctly translated, "Adam" (a particular individual) rather than "man".

21 posted on 08/07/2006 11:21:41 AM PDT by Matchett-PI ( Ignorance is correctable with education, but stupid is forever.)
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To: Blueflag

thelogian = theologian.

oops.


22 posted on 08/07/2006 11:23:09 AM PDT by Blueflag (Res ipsa loquitor)
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To: Matchett-PI
Actually the verse in John says "God is A spirit".
"God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." - John 4:24

"But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." -- Romans 8:9

"For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God." -- 1 Corinthians 2:11

"Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God." -- 1 Corinthians 2:12

"Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:" -- 1 John 4:2

"


23 posted on 08/07/2006 11:31:35 AM PDT by Mark Felton ("Your faith should not be in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.")
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To: Mark Felton

forgot to mention, the above verses ar "King James"


24 posted on 08/07/2006 11:33:04 AM PDT by Mark Felton ("Your faith should not be in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.")
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To: Blueflag
SirLinks -- have you read the book? just curious ...

Still in the middle of it. Too many things going on to finish it.
25 posted on 08/07/2006 11:38:43 AM PDT by SirLinksalot
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To: Blueflag
Definitely ~ Darwinists have also drank from the fountain of "gaps" attributing to some mystical force they call "Natural Selection" to explain why certain features came to be.

Unbeknownst to them, genes were shuffling about, or being added to (through duplication, and possibly "mutation"), all on their lonesome and without any illeffect on the critters.

It's really not necessary that Darwinists and Creationists use the exact same metaphysical logic, although they do.

26 posted on 08/07/2006 11:46:05 AM PDT by muawiyah (-/sarcasm)
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To: muawiyah

Here are the details of Jerry Bergman's educational background :



Dr. Bergman is an adjunct associate professor at Medical University of Ohio and also teaches biochemistry, biology, chemistry and physics at Northwest State Community College in Ohio. He has taught at the college level for 35 years including 7 years at Bowling Green State University, 6 years at the university of Toledo, and 20 years at Northwest State. He started as a graduate student in biochemistry at Medical College of Ohio in 1985, and was later hired as an adjunct instructor and research associate in the experimental pathology department and he still is still on the faculty at MCO (now named Medical University of Ohio). He has also worked for several years as a therapist at various psychological clinics including Arlington Psychological associates in Toledo, Ohio. Bergman has nine academic degrees. He obtained an Associate in Arts degree in Biology and Behavioral Science, from Oakland Community College, Bloomfield Hills, Michigan in 1967, a BSc from Wayne State University in Detroit, Michigan in 1970 where he had majors in sociology, biology, and psychology, from where he also obtained an M.Ed. in counseling and psychology in 1971 and studied for a PhD in measurement and evaluation, minor in psychology from Wayne State. Bergman received an M.A. in social psychology from Bowling Green State in 1986.

In 1992 Bergman received his Ph.D. in human biology from Columbia Pacific University, a now defunct nontraditional distance learning school. Columbia Pacific University lost its state approval to operate in 1995 and was ordered to close permanently in October 2000 by the State of California. A court invalidated all degrees awarded after 1997 and ordered the student fees refunded. Bergman has written a detailed perspective on the school's fall from grace.

Bergman also received a Master of Science degree in biomedical science, from the Medical College of Ohio, Toledo, Ohio, 1999. In 2001 he obtained a Master of Public Health degree from the Northwest Ohio Consortium for Public Health (consisting of the Medical College of Ohio, the University of Toledo and Bowling Green State). In 2004 he received another MA from Medical College of Ohio. Dr. Bergman has also completed coursework at the University of Wisconsin, Miami University in Oxford Ohio (where he was accepted into the doctoral program in chemistry, so far completing 33 semester hours) and the University of California, Berkeley. He now has over 700 publications in a variety of scientific and popular journals, plus 20 books and monographs. His work has now been translated into 12 languages and he has spoken widely in the United States, Canada and Europe on his research.

He is a member of MENSA, and received the 1998 Edgar Langsdorf award for excellence in writing.




May I add though, that the important thing is to address HIS ARGUMENTS. His educational background, while helpful, does little to address the validity of what he presents.


27 posted on 08/07/2006 12:12:53 PM PDT by SirLinksalot
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To: SirLinksalot

Ooops. I apologize for posting the above reply regaring Jerry Bergman on the wrong thread. sorry.


28 posted on 08/07/2006 12:18:18 PM PDT by SirLinksalot
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To: Mark Felton
I believe God may have chosen that particular line of hominids to be transformed. It is a "spirit" that God incorporated into a hominid.

The Hebrew word "bara" for created rules out your position.
29 posted on 08/07/2006 12:24:44 PM PDT by GarySpFc (Jesus on Immigration, John 10:1)
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To: Matchett-PI; .30Carbine; Alamo-Girl; betty boop; hosepipe; xzins; marron; DaveLoneRanger
A further clarification: Adam was not created; his physical body was made from pre-existing (created) materials ("formed from the dust of the earth"...).


God then endowed the completed (finally "evolved" in both body and brain?) physical proto-man that He had made (Adam) with his Spirit, and, at that point -- and for the first time in untold millions of years of developmental history since Creation of the universe -- a man existed truly "in the Image of God'. God (Spirit) ensouled man with a like sprit -- and, finally man (plus spirit) was truly "in the image of God".

Man's (Adam's) physical body (including brain) was finally formed (developed, matured, ?"evolved"?) to the point of being suitable as a "temple of the Holy Spirit". And that body was designed to survive in (and "have dominion over" God's (earthly, at least) creation .

Nowhere in Scripture (Michaelangelo, et al. notwithstanding) is God described as normally inhabiting a physical body even remotely resembling man's. In fact, Jesus Himself had to "take upon Himself the form of a man" by being incarnated here.

30 posted on 08/07/2006 12:24:58 PM PDT by TXnMA ("Allah" = Satan in disguise)
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To: TXnMA
Indeed. I will ping my list when my machine with my list finally arrives at my new place. Moving cross country can be such a pain!
31 posted on 08/07/2006 12:25:11 PM PDT by curiosity
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To: TXnMA; Alamo-Girl; hosepipe; xzins
Obviously in the background here, and the foreground too, is the Intelligent Design debate. Darwin and his followers advocate an unguided and purely material mechanism of natural selection operating on random genetic variation. Intelligent Design claims to find positive evidence that the mechanism was, indeed, guided--in short, that the software in the cell (DNA) did not write itself.

Hi TXnMA!!!! That the software in the cell "did not write itself" is the real clincher for me. No software ever writes itself. Period. Some neo-Darwinists simply refuse to acknowledge this. Thus all their following arguments rest on thin air.

It will be argued, perhaps, that computer programs can be self-structuring, or self-evolving. But that continues to miss the point: That capability or function must be "loaded in" by the software designer in the first instance.

Nothing that exists is sui generis, self-caused. Not even man. But we "forget this at every sound."

Thanks for the ping to this great article. The Language of God sounds like a great book -- I'll be putting it on my little list....

32 posted on 08/07/2006 12:30:16 PM PDT by betty boop (The universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose. -J.B.S. Haldane)
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To: Mark Felton
The surviving original texts all lack the 1611 English 2-stage translation's article, "A" at that point.

Likewise, none of the earliest MSs have the Jehovah's Witnesses' "New World Translation"'s article, "A" in, John 1: "...and the Word was "A" [G]od".

33 posted on 08/07/2006 12:33:45 PM PDT by TXnMA ("Allah" = Satan in disguise)
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To: betty boop

Exactly. As I'm fond of asking, "Who wrote the "kernel" of the OS?"


34 posted on 08/07/2006 12:40:23 PM PDT by TXnMA ("Allah" = Satan in disguise)
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To: TXnMA
As I'm fond of asking, "Who wrote the "kernel" of the OS?"

Of course, the modern answer would be -- GIVE IT A FEW BILLION YEARS AND YOU'LL SEE WHAT KIND OF KERNEL YOU'LL GET. :)
35 posted on 08/07/2006 12:48:40 PM PDT by SirLinksalot
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To: Mark Felton

That's a hoot. Your certainty inspires awe, but not faith.

God created Adam and Eve through His Word. Deal with it.


36 posted on 08/07/2006 1:04:07 PM PDT by sine_nomine (Confidential to Bush: protect the borders. The first word in "illegal immigrant" is...?)
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To: SirLinksalot; TXnMA; Alamo-Girl; hosepipe; xzins; DaveLoneRanger; .30Carbine
Of course, the modern answer would be -- GIVE IT A FEW BILLION YEARS AND YOU'LL SEE WHAT KIND OF KERNEL YOU'LL GET. :)

Sure. But it ought to be clear that this is not really an answer to the question; rather, it is an evasion of it.

37 posted on 08/07/2006 1:12:23 PM PDT by betty boop (The universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose. -J.B.S. Haldane)
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To: betty boop; Alamo-Girl; TXnMA
[ Nothing that exists is sui generis, self-caused. Not even man. But we "forget this at every sound." / Thanks for the ping to this great article. The Language of God sounds like a great book -- I'll be putting it on my little list.... ]

As an old programmer, very old.. There were very few computer programmers when I became one (in the hundreds).. A computer language must be written by someone.. Having written (and developed) a few of them myself.. It don't happen by accident.. Takes thought and experimentation to do it..

DNA(rna) is a computer language except not for a computer, exactly.. To think it developed itself is silly in the extreme.. It takes planning toward a plan.. God does not make bluebirds, bluebirds do.. according to plan..

Mans DNA runs the computer(body), mans software is his spirit.. for whatever its worth both are needed the computer and the software.. DNA is the electronics, the spirit allows the computer to function.. Amazing that this concept escapes the so-called super sophisticated computer people.. There is a metaphorical imprint.. Computers are a good metaphor.. up to a point.. Computers are so primitive... and cannot be "born again".. Born again "beyond" DNA.. which is obviously a language lacking much.. To be remedied soon hopefully..

Maranatha Jesus...

38 posted on 08/07/2006 1:16:32 PM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole..)
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To: Matchett-PI
God IS Spirit - not "a" spirit. Big difference.

I Am that I AM<(•¿•)>

39 posted on 08/07/2006 1:25:10 PM PDT by itsahoot (The home of the Free, Because of the Brave (Shamelessly stolen from a Marine)
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To: Just mythoughts

And St. Paul continued in this thought, too!

1 Cor 6:9


40 posted on 08/07/2006 1:26:04 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: Mark Felton; TXnMA

John 4:24
|4151| spirit |9999| {is} |3588| - |2316| God |2532| and |3588| those |4352| worshiping |0846| Him |1722| in |4151| spirit |2532| and |0225| truth |1163| need |4352| to worship.

The LITERAL translation of the Greek.

No 'a' found.

"Spirit is GOD"

syntax switch...

"GOD is Spirit."


41 posted on 08/07/2006 1:31:08 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: hosepipe; Alamo-Girl; TXnMA; SirLinksalot; DaveLoneRanger; xzins
God does not make bluebirds, bluebirds do ... according to [God's] plan....

Mans DNA runs the computer(body), mans software is his spirit.. for whatever its worth both are needed the computer and the software... Amazing that this concept escapes the so-called super sophisticated computer people....

HI hosepipe! Call it willful blindness at work. And for why??? Don't bother to ask. For as a wise man once said, "certain motives are beyond the reach of argument."

IMHO, your essay/post is right on the money....

42 posted on 08/07/2006 1:34:27 PM PDT by betty boop (The universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose. -J.B.S. Haldane)
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To: tophat9000
Man this has to be the most logically inconsistent position Ive ever seen

At the very worst it's only the flip side of the inconsistency of Intelligent Design when examined theologically: i.e. only attributing as acts of design those that were apparently accomplished outside of the natural order. That's a bit like playing at a game of sport and only being credited with scores when you cheat.

43 posted on 08/07/2006 1:39:24 PM PDT by Stultis (I don't worry about the war turning into "Vietnam" in Iraq; I worry about it doing so in Congress.)
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To: Elsie
Not only Paul; but James and John, too!
 
 
NIV Romans 7:11
   For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death.
 

NIV Romans 16:17-18
 17.  I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them.
 18.  For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people.
 

NIV 1 Corinthians 3:18
   Do not deceive yourselves. If any one of you thinks he is wise by the standards of this age, he should become a "fool" so that he may become wise.
 

NIV 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
  9.  Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders
 10.  nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
 

NIV 2 Corinthians 11:3
   But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ.
 

NIV Galatians 6:3
   If anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself.
 

NIV Galatians 6:7
   Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows.
 

NIV Ephesians 5:6
   Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient.
 

NIV Colossians 2:4
   I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments.
 

NIV 2 Thessalonians 2:3
   Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness  is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
 

NIV 2 Thessalonians 2:9-10
  9.  The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders,
 10.  and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
 

NIV 1 Timothy 2:14
   And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.
 

NIV 2 Timothy 3:12-13
 12.  In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted,
 13.  while evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.
 

NIV Titus 1:10
   For there are many rebellious people, mere talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision group.
 

NIV Titus 3:3
   At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another.
 

NIV James 1:16
   Don't be deceived, my dear brothers.
 

NIV James 1:22
   Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says.
 

NIV James 1:26
   If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless.
 

NIV 1 John 1:8
   If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
 

NIV 2 John 1:7
   Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.
 
 

NIV Revelation 13:11-14
 11.  Then I saw another beast, coming out of the earth. He had two horns like a lamb, but he spoke like a dragon.
 12.  He exercised all the authority of the first beast on his behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed.
 13.  And he performed great and miraculous signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to earth in full view of men.
 14.  Because of the signs he was given power to do on behalf of the first beast, he deceived the inhabitants of the earth. He ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived.
 

NIV Revelation 20:7-8
 7.  When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison
 8.  and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth--Gog and Magog--to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore.
 

NIV Revelation 20:10
   And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

44 posted on 08/07/2006 1:43:07 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: Stultis
That's a bit like playing at a game of sport and only being credited with scores when you cheat.

Oh??

What were the 'rules' of, say, baseball, BEFORE the game was INVENTED?

45 posted on 08/07/2006 1:44:40 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: GarySpFc
 
My best friend hass a PhD in theology from Duke and considered himself a theistic evolutionist. I spent a couple of years showing him exactly what the Darwinists are saying, and he now agrees their views are atheistic.
 

Indeed!
 
 
Most Christians 'believe' Evolution because they do NOT know what their Bible says. 
If, as they say, they 'believe' the words of Jesus and the New Testament writers,
they have to decide what the following verses mean:
 
Acts 17:26-27
 26.  From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live.
 27.  God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us.
 
 
Romans 5:12-21
 12.  Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned--
 13.  for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law.
 14.  Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.
 15.  But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!
 16.  Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.
 17.  For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
 18.  Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.
 19.  For just as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
 20.  The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,
 21.  so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
 
 
 
If there were  no one man, that means SIN did NOT enter the World thru him.
 
If Adam was NOT the one man, that means SPIRITUAL DEATH did not come thru him.
 
If SIN did NOT enter the World thru the one man, that means Jesus does not save from SIN.
 
 
Are we to believe that the one man is symbolic?  Does that mean Jesus is symbolic as well?
 
 
The Theory of Evolution states that there WAS no one man, but a wide population that managed to inherit that last mutated gene that makes MEN different from APES.
 
 
 Acts 17:24-26

 24.  "The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands.
 25.  And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else.
 26.  From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live.

Was LUKE wrong about this?


 
 
1 Corinthians 11:8-9
 8.  For man did not come from woman, but woman from man;
 9.  neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.
 
1 Timothy 2:13
  For Adam was formed first, then Eve.  
 

 
 
Was Paul WRONG about these???
 

 
If so, is GOD so puny that He allows this 'inaccuracy' in His Word??
 
NIV Genesis 2:18
   The LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him."

46 posted on 08/07/2006 1:47:10 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: itsahoot; betty boop
[ God IS Spirit - not "a" spirit. Big difference. ]

What is Spirit or even "a" spirit..?..

47 posted on 08/07/2006 1:53:17 PM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole..)
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To: sine_nomine
"Deal with it."

Impossible. Deal with that.

(BTW: My posts are qualified, by "I believe...", unlike yours.)

48 posted on 08/07/2006 2:02:58 PM PDT by Mark Felton ("Your faith should not be in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.")
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To: hosepipe
"What is Spirit or even "a" spirit..?.."

Loosely, that which exists, and can interact with nature, but is not of material form.

49 posted on 08/07/2006 2:07:14 PM PDT by Mark Felton ("Your faith should not be in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.")
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To: SirLinksalot

I am glad that ID folks are very sincere in their beliefs.

I admire anyone who is that passionate.

I do wish they would go away, but that is not going to happen.


Bahbull thumpers, and ID folks (same thing) are here to stay.

RR was great, but he made a huge mistake embracing religeous nutjobs. Perhaps it was worth it at the time, but today, it is a huge handicap.

These nutjobs believe in noah's ark. They believe the red sea parted. They believe a virgin gave birth. They see Mary in a piece of toast. They believe the bible is infallable.

Taliban christians.


50 posted on 08/07/2006 2:11:27 PM PDT by MonroeDNA (I've got a possum in my pants.)
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