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Germany won't send troops, may offer naval forces
JPost ^ | 8/17/06

Posted on 08/17/2006 7:08:31 PM PDT by bnelson44

German Chancellor Angela Merkel said Thursday that Germany would not send combat troops as part of the contemplated international peacekeeping force in Lebanon, but may offer naval forces to help patrol the country's coastline.

Merkel said Germany was looking at "naval security" as part of its effort to support the force, after meeting with parliamentary leaders.

Parliament must approve any deployment, and the German government has warned it can't make a concrete offer until rules of engagement are clarified.

(Excerpt) Read more at jpost.com ...


TOPICS: Front Page News; Germany; Israel; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: geopolitics; germantroops; germany; lebanon; un; unifil

1 posted on 08/17/2006 7:08:32 PM PDT by bnelson44
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To: bnelson44; marron

That Syria to Tyre smuggling sea route is closed!

/sarcasm

The "arms embargo" is a joke. How long is Syria's boder with Lebanon?


2 posted on 08/17/2006 7:10:35 PM PDT by Shermy (A louder mime)
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To: bnelson44

This may actually be a good development. No one seems to want to commit ground troops. The longer this goes on without resolution, the more likely that Israsel can get out of this awful deal.


3 posted on 08/17/2006 7:10:37 PM PDT by kesg
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To: bnelson44

Are they deployin their naval troops to Okinawa?


4 posted on 08/17/2006 7:11:06 PM PDT by traditional1
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To: bnelson44
That will keep the Hezbo Navy in check... and stop arms flowing from Syria.
5 posted on 08/17/2006 7:11:54 PM PDT by operation clinton cleanup
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To: kesg

Breaking: Syria to offer 20,000 troops. France will lead with 4 troops. And the Iranians will offer 16. This is a big development and it certainly can be called a victory for the UN!


/of course sarcasm all over that.


6 posted on 08/17/2006 7:12:37 PM PDT by edmond246 (God Bless America)
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To: bnelson44

I recommend the Scharnhorst or the Tirpitz. They are about as seaworthy as the ceasefire is durable.


7 posted on 08/17/2006 7:14:36 PM PDT by TADSLOS (Right Wing Infidel since 1954)
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To: bnelson44

Motto of the German Navy:

We want you
We want you
we want you as a new recruit.


8 posted on 08/17/2006 7:15:33 PM PDT by Perdogg
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To: bnelson44

They might as well bring their own lint for all the good they'll do.


9 posted on 08/17/2006 7:17:36 PM PDT by NonValueAdded (Tom Gallagher - the anti-Crist [FL Governor, 2006 primary])
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To: Shermy

Unless I was building a fleet of U-Boats, I don't think I'd ask the German Navy for any help...


10 posted on 08/17/2006 7:17:37 PM PDT by 04-Bravo
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To: bnelson44
Merkel said Germany was looking at "naval security" as part of its effort to support the force...

More like Germany is looking at their navels, just like the rest of gutless, skirt wearing Europe.(no offense to those who wear skirts as a general practice)

And they can't make a concrete offer because there is nothing that solid in on the entire continent of Europe. The EU parliment should just make a declaration that they are useless and impotent in all matters requiring a backbone and be done with it.

11 posted on 08/17/2006 7:18:01 PM PDT by infidel29 ("The Democrat Party is like a mule. It has neither pride of ancestry nor hope of posterity.")
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To: edmond246
Breaking: Syria to offer 20,000 troops. France will lead with 4 troops. And the Iranians will offer 16. This is a big development and it certainly can be called a victory for the UN!

This would be excellent. When you throw in all thos armed Hezbollah guys who are repopulating south Lebanon, this is definitely a target rich environment.

12 posted on 08/17/2006 7:18:26 PM PDT by kesg
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To: bnelson44

Imagine a German soldier accidently killing a Jew. I can see why they want to keep troops out of the area.


13 posted on 08/17/2006 7:23:23 PM PDT by glorgau
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To: TADSLOS

Very good point, but I think an Iowa Class would be more impressive. Make big boom and they still float. Wish we still had one active.


14 posted on 08/17/2006 7:26:02 PM PDT by Dawggie
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To: Dawggie

Raise the Bismark.


15 posted on 08/17/2006 7:27:51 PM PDT by battlegearboat
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To: bnelson44

Naval security? WTH. Why not just send a few blimps?


16 posted on 08/17/2006 7:39:43 PM PDT by VeniVidiVici (Rabid ethnicist.)
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To: kesg
They already ceased fire, they already gave up, they already lost. Everyone will back out of anything required of Lebanon, but the deal will hold anyway. Then the world will rush to cut Lebanon large checks, a third of which will quietly pass to Hezbollah to replace the rockets it let off.
17 posted on 08/17/2006 7:48:22 PM PDT by JasonC
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To: glorgau
Imagine a German soldier.
18 posted on 08/17/2006 7:49:04 PM PDT by JasonC
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To: JasonC
They already ceased fire, they already gave up, they already lost. Everyone will back out of anything required of Lebanon, but the deal will hold anyway. Then the world will rush to cut Lebanon large checks, a third of which will quietly pass to Hezbollah to replace the rockets it let off.

Now you are really starting to depress me. We shouldn't give a damn dime to Lebanon, not even for humanitarian aid.

19 posted on 08/17/2006 8:12:35 PM PDT by kesg
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To: kesg
We've already sent $40 million. Yep, already.
20 posted on 08/17/2006 8:17:07 PM PDT by JasonC
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To: JasonC

Great. Just great.


21 posted on 08/17/2006 8:18:17 PM PDT by kesg
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To: kesg
the more likely that Israsel can get out of this awful deal.

And go back to doing what they should have been allowed to do in the first place without International pressure.

I hope.

Agree 100% This might once and for all prove that UN style peace keeping is a total farce and shut some of these whiners up.

22 posted on 08/17/2006 8:24:36 PM PDT by Condor 63
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To: Condor 63
Agree 100% This might once and for all prove that UN style peace keeping is a total farce and shut some of these whiners up.

It won't. Trust me on this. Bet the ranch, your first born, and your life savings.

23 posted on 08/17/2006 8:28:26 PM PDT by kesg
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To: glorgau

"Imagine a German soldier accidently killing a Jew."

Well, in case that happens, and people start bringing up history, they might as well bring the USS Liberty back into the picture. Remember, over 30 US Navy personnel, 1967....?


24 posted on 08/17/2006 8:45:20 PM PDT by Bazooka (When Tolerance met Indifference, it was love at first sight.)
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To: kesg
Bet the ranch, your first born, and your life savings.

0 fer 3.

Mathematically there is still a chance for first born. LOL

25 posted on 08/17/2006 8:45:32 PM PDT by Condor 63
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To: Condor 63

I got an Effing Geman Officer to Volunteer.

Nah, Joerg!

Bastad!


26 posted on 08/17/2006 8:55:11 PM PDT by BookaT (My cat's breath smells like cat food!)
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To: bnelson44

Now that I think about it, German troops would be cooler. Esp if they learn the goose step before they embark. Scare the cheese out of everybody. Think all the comie-libs would blow a gasket.


27 posted on 08/17/2006 9:02:43 PM PDT by Dawggie
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To: Dawggie; TADSLOS
Very good point, but I think an Iowa Class would be more impressive. Make big boom and they still float. Wish we still had one active.

Sorry, but the Iowa class is completly outdated and its 16"-guns are too expensive and (compared to the price to maintain such heavy equipment) ineffective. They were "top of the line" in 1939 when they have been introduced. Today they are simply scrap. Maybe you remember the shelling (after the Marines left the country due to their heavy losses in a terror act of the Hezzies) of northern Lebanon in 1984 that ended in some impressive fireworks but with no measurable effect (I think a few people including a Syrian commander died, but nothing really decisive).

The US navy would be much better off if they buy modern German naval technology if they are interested in the capability of traditional shelling of hostile land with ships:

Modular Naval Artillery Concept (MONARC) was a study of the German defence industry about mounting the turret of the PzH 2000 self-propelled howitzer on a naval ship of frigate size.

The size required above and below deck and the weight of this turret are not much different to the OTO Melara 76mm gun system, the standard naval gun of the German Navy. But to deal with the much greater recoil of the 155 mm artillery piece on such a small vessel, a flexible mount with damping elements had to be designed.

This mount and a PzH 2000's turret was fitted experimentally in December 2002 on the Type 124 Sachsen class frigate Hamburg at the shipyards of HDW in Kiel, when she was still fitting out. 2004 the fire-control system was tested with a PzH 2000 strapped onto the helicopter deck of Hessen, another Type 124 frigate. The feasibilty of using even the unmodified PzH 2000 with unguided "dumb" rounds to attack naval targets had been proven previously by the Swedish Coastal Artillery with tests performed in May 1996.

Rheinmetall, the producer of PzH 2000's gun system, plans to design special smart naval rounds that will boost the range of the gun from 30km with standard NATO ammunition and 40km with assisted rounds to over 80km, more than many anti-ship missiles.

The future F125 class frigate will very likely make use of this concept.

155 mm/52 MONARC on German Frigate FGS Hamburg

155 mm/52 MONARC prototype at Rheinmetall proving range in Unterlüß in June 2003 Note the elaborate "Flexible Mounting" required

The Panzerhaubitze 2000, or PzH 2000 for short, is a 155mm self-propelled howitzer developed by Krauss-Maffei Wegmann (KMW) together with Rheinmetall for the German Army. It is arguably the most powerful artillery system currently deployed. It is particularly notable for a very high rate of fire; in burst mode it can fire three rounds in 9 seconds, ten rounds in 56 seconds, and can fire between 10 and 13 rounds per minute continuously depending on barrel heating. PzH 2000 has also been selected by the Italian, Dutch and Greek Armies, and more orders are highly likely as forces upgrade their outdated M109 Paladins.

The loading of shells is automated, two operators should be able to load 60 shells in 12 minutes.

In April 2006 a PzH 2000 shot assisted shells (Denel V-Lap) over a distance of 56km with a probable maximum range of over 60km

Although the caliber is smaller it is possible to provide equal much (or effectivly even more) firepower that is much more accurate with 3 small and cheap frigates. If the MONARAC turrets are deployed on a larger ship than a frigate you have a very effective possibility to bombard cheaply hostile territory.

28 posted on 08/17/2006 10:15:19 PM PDT by Atlantic Bridge (De omnibus dubitandum.)
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To: Atlantic Bridge

"Sorry, but the Iowa class is completely outdated and its 16"-guns are too expensive..." Yeah, I know . I was drawing a comparison to mentioned Scharnhorst and Tirpitz which no longer float.


29 posted on 08/17/2006 10:25:14 PM PDT by Dawggie
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To: bnelson44

Now, I don't know the specifics, but there are in the historical record of the Nazis multitudes of incidents where Nazis went about providing falsehoods of convenience to Jewish victims in the moments before they were further victimized and persecuted one incremental step further towards their annihilation.

I'm sure these historical facts will be brought forward by Jewish and WWII historians in the coming hours.

If it comes to pass the Germans went into negotiations with no true intentions to provide any forces for ceasefire duty, that the Germans did a trial balloon of them offering troops as a way to allay the Israelis apprehensions, that Germany will now recant all future options of German soldiers entering Lebanon, that German taxpayer monies will be used as collateral, loan and or grant money to the Lebanese government(and funneled to Hezbollah to reentrench and rearm), and that the Germans will further hold Israel to a truce built upon German diplomatic false pretensions, the whole damn world should hear about it, and Israel should throw it back into the Germans faces.



30 posted on 08/17/2006 11:03:04 PM PDT by JerseyHighlander
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To: JerseyHighlander

Blah...Blah...Blah. Complete BS.

It is indeed a problem for German millitary to be involved into such a operation. We do not know the exact conditions of the mandate for such a UN-force in the moment. The thing is that it would probably part of the mandate to protect Lebanese civillians (as well as those of Israel) from armed hostillities. This is the reason why the UN peace troop will be no direct "ally" of Israel but a neutral power between Israel and Libanon. Therefore UN troops could be engaged into a conflict with Israeli troops in case of their retaliation for possible terror acts of the Hezzies.

We contemporary Germans stick to the conditions and the words of the treaties we sign. Since we are no "Dutchbatters" (if you remember the chicken-hearted Dutch troops that betrayed the civillians they should protect from their Serbian murderers), it is better for us (and the Israelis) to stay out of a conflict were we a no neutral force. Germany understands itself as a ally of Israel. Since it is completely UNTHINKABLE that German forces have armed hostilities with the troops of Israel this was the right decision.

Besides to the maritime deployment it will be thinkable to help both Israel and Lebanon with armed Federal Policemen (German police was always very effective in such cases) to control the border of Syria and Lebanon to chop the weapon deliveries to Hezbollah from Iran and Syria. A direct deployment of German forces between Israels boarder and the Litani river is not helpful because of the given historic situation.

Your statement, that Germany offered troops except of the offical statement yesterday is false. In difference to the US-President i.e. the chancellor is unable to send troops into a millitary action except of the direct defense of Germany on her own responsibility. Millitary actions are decided by German Bundestag, the parliament. This is the reason why there was a discussion if we should do or not. To discuss and to offer are fundamental differences. BTW - the difficult German way in millitary decisions is something that is fundamentally criticized by Donald Rumsfeld i.e. since it makes German forces useless for "police actions" due to the fact that it takes weeks and months until the political discussion process and the parliamental decision is finished. Personally I think our system is not that bad since the question about war or not should be most closely in the hands of our sovereign - our people.

If you do not know the specifics of a issue you are well advised to stay out of a discussion, since wrong statements and lies (your imagination that it must be that way because of your own limited individual view of things is not enough) are simply a form of dumb propaganda.

Regards from Germany

AB


31 posted on 08/18/2006 1:23:29 AM PDT by Atlantic Bridge (De omnibus dubitandum.)
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To: bnelson44

Europe is pathetic.


32 posted on 08/18/2006 3:18:01 AM PDT by wny
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To: Atlantic Bridge

The Germans show excellent good sense.

No-one should serve under "Field-Marshal Annan"


33 posted on 08/18/2006 4:52:20 AM PDT by agere_contra
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To: Atlantic Bridge

The USN's 127mm guns can fire rocket assisted shells upto 100kms out with rocket boosters & is also working on dedicated 155mm guns.The Monarc,though would be a good option for smaller navies to retrofit on their major surface vessels & would be more cost effective than an expensive cruise missile.GIAT of France is also reportedly working on modified 155mm guns for naval roles.


34 posted on 08/18/2006 7:25:37 AM PDT by sukhoi-30mki
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To: bnelson44

U-Boats?


35 posted on 08/18/2006 7:48:22 AM PDT by PsyOp (There is only one decisive victory: the last. - Clauswitz)
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To: agere_contra
The Germans show excellent good sense. No-one should serve under "Field-Marshal Annan"

My words... :-)

36 posted on 08/18/2006 10:05:18 AM PDT by Atlantic Bridge (De omnibus dubitandum.)
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