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'China-level' Christian persecution coming: court's ruling in Houston Bible case 'breath-taking'
WorldNetDaily ^ | 17 Aug 06 | WND

Posted on 08/17/2006 8:21:56 PM PDT by xzins

'China-level' Christian persecution coming: Pastors say court's ruling in Houston Bible case 'breath-taking'

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posted: August 17, 2006 5:00 a.m. Eastern

© 2006 WorldNetDaily.com

Houston's Bible monument

A few more court decisions like this week's over a display of a Bible in Houston and the United States will be approaching the "China-level" for Christian persecution, according to a leader in the midst of that battle.

The ruling from the Fifth Court of Appeals said the display of a Bible on public ground in Houston to honor the founder of a mission has to go, not because it was unconstitutional itself, but because it became unconstitutional when a Christian group rallied around it.

The pastor's group said that means any monument, building, or even feature of nature is an illegal "establishment of religion" if a church ceremony is held there.

"Connecting the dots between the eminent domain case, which says all of your churches are up for grabs if a town wants a mall, secondly you now have been told you do not have constitutional rights in the public square," Dave Welch, executive director of the Houston Area Pastors Conference, told WorldNetDaily.

"Any kind of an event is okay, as long as you didn't express any religious faith. What is that telling you?

"We're not persecuted yet, we know that. But we're on our way there. Add that to the surprising acceptance of militant Islam, the fear of speaking against that from a Christian standpoint and then we're dangerously approaching the point where we have literally given away and yielded our freedoms that were earned," Welch said.

"We have history, law and the founding fathers who adopted the Constitution collectively affirming the truth expressed by revered Justice Joseph Story in 1840 that, 'We are not to attribute this prohibition of a national religious establishment to an indifference to religion in general, and especially to Christianity,'" said a statement issued by the pastor's group.

Welch told WND that the court's conclusion was "ludicrous" and if followed logically, could mean that a religious rally at any public building would therefore make the building unconstitutional so it would have to be removed.

The Bible was installed on county property about five decades ago in honor of William Mosher, the founder of Star of Hope Mission, and was replaced in 1996 with donated funds. However, an atheist challenged the monument, and on an appeal from the District Court decision that the Bible was unconstitutional, the appeals court carried the argument further.

Its ruling said that the monument became an unconstitutional "establishment" after a 2003 rally was held by Christians to defend the display. That rally involved prayers and clergy, the court noted.

"The ramifications of this tortured decision are breath-taking and without any historic or legitimate Constitutional rationale," said the pastors' organization. "For the court to state that if a private citizen exercises his or her First Amendment rights of religious expression and assembly on public property, that any monument, building or fixed item of any kind that contains religious references becomes 'establishment of religion' is simply irrational."

The conclusion, if applied nationwide, would result in the sandblasting of hundreds of monuments and buildings "including the capstone on the Washington Monument, which reads, 'Laus Deo,' or 'Praise be to God,'" the pastors group continued.

"For this panel majority of two justices to claim that words and actions by private citizens or elected officials with religious content, expressed about a building or monument, convert it from 'secular' and constitutional to 'sacred' and unconstitutional amounts to an act of blatant judicial activism against the freedoms and Constitution," the HAPC said.

The group Battle For The Bible also is working on the case, and Welch said there are experts on constitutional law who have been and plan to continue assisting the county in its fight over the representation of the Bible.

"They are of the opinion this needs to be appealed directly to the Supreme Court, and we're working on that right now," Welch told WND.

He called the logic "twisted" that could conclude the monument once was constitutional, but since "some action by a private citizen" it now becomes unconstitutional.

Because the atheist's lawsuit was against the county over the monument on county land, the pastors and their advisors have been assisting County Attorney Michael Stafford in the fight.


TOPICS: Front Page News; News/Current Events; US: Texas
KEYWORDS: 1stamendment; ac; antichrist; antichristian; bible; bigotry; christianity; church; churchandstate; constitution; constitutionallaw; court; fifthcircuit; firstamendment; houston; libertarians; moralabsolutes; persecutedchurch; persecution; publicsquare; religion; religiousbigotry; ruling; scotus; separation; state
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1 posted on 08/17/2006 8:21:57 PM PDT by xzins
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To: P-Marlowe; blue-duncan; Congressman Billybob; Alamo-Girl
For the court to state that if a private citizen exercises his or her First Amendment rights of religious expression and assembly on public property, that any monument, building or fixed item of any kind that contains religious references becomes 'establishment of religion' is simply irrational."

Religious expression by religious citizens = establishment of religion ping.

2 posted on 08/17/2006 8:24:03 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and proud of it! Supporting our troops means praying for them to WIN!)
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To: xzins

ACLU delenda est.


3 posted on 08/17/2006 8:24:36 PM PDT by Mad_Tom_Rackham (John Bolton for Secretary of State)
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To: xzins

We have NO idea of China like persecution - shame on the comparison!


4 posted on 08/17/2006 8:25:19 PM PDT by justche (If you're afraid of the future, then get out of the way, stand aside. - Ronald Reagan)
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To: justche

I think this is great. I call for a prayer rally around the IRS headquarters!! :-)


5 posted on 08/17/2006 8:30:25 PM PDT by Liberty1970
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To: justche
We have NO idea of China like persecution - shame on the comparison!

I didn't see it as a comparison, but as a warning. If you WANTED to move towards a China-style oppression, you'd have to start somewhere. Stupid court rulings are a good first step.
6 posted on 08/17/2006 8:31:18 PM PDT by beezdotcom
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To: Liberty1970

That's funny!


7 posted on 08/17/2006 8:32:29 PM PDT by justche (If you're afraid of the future, then get out of the way, stand aside. - Ronald Reagan)
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To: justche
We have NO idea of China like persecution - shame on the comparison!

Ah, but Evangelical megachurch pastor Greg Laurie says we're living in the last days, so the comparison must be valid.


8 posted on 08/17/2006 8:33:13 PM PDT by Alex Murphy (Colossians 2:6)
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To: xzins
Doesn't the USA still have the power to Impeach Justices who don't dispense justice?

This is worse than crazy. This is legislation from the bench. This is merging two branches of government and leaves the people with no balance of powers.

Did these Judges and Lawyers fail "Civics" class in 9th Grade?

Not THAT Civics. This Civics.
9 posted on 08/17/2006 8:33:46 PM PDT by HighlyOpinionated (In Memory of Crockett Nicolas, hit and run in the prime of his Cocker Spaniel life, 9/3/05.)
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To: justche
We have NO idea of China like persecution - shame on the comparison!

We are not exoeriencing that level...yet. But we will, and the entire point of this article is to show how close we really are.

10 posted on 08/17/2006 8:34:00 PM PDT by NewLand (Posting against liberalism since the 20th century!)
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To: xzins
"Welch told WND that the court's conclusion was "ludicrous" and if followed logically, could mean that a religious rally at any public building would therefore make the building unconstitutional so it would have to be removed."

Well, perhaps there should be a Christian rally around the courthouse in which such a ruling was made. If they refuse to take down the building, sue.

11 posted on 08/17/2006 8:35:53 PM PDT by Tench_Coxe
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To: xzins

" ... it became unconstitutional when a Christian group rallied around it."

Great! Let's ALL rally around all of these monkey courts and praise GOD that they exist.

Would it not then make this ignorant group of degenerate lawyers and tyrannical judges unconstitutional and illegal? Sounds like it to me.


12 posted on 08/17/2006 8:36:46 PM PDT by TimesDomain (When a judge declares himself "MASTER", you become his "SLAVE")
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To: xzins; potlatch; devolve; PhilDragoo; bitt; Smartass

What about these Amendments don't they understand?

Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.


Amendment II

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.


13 posted on 08/17/2006 8:38:35 PM PDT by ntnychik
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To: xzins
The ruling from the Fifth Court of Appeals said the display of a Bible on public ground in Houston to honor the founder of a mission has to go, not because it was unconstitutional itself, but because it became unconstitutional when a Christian group rallied around it.

So hold a prayer service around the Fifth Court of Appeals, and pray over each one of the justices. Then have someone sue to have it removed on the same grounds? Can we do that? I mean can we really have an entire Court of Appeals declared unconstitutional?
14 posted on 08/17/2006 8:38:37 PM PDT by yevgenie (Q. What is the first sign of AIDS? A. A pounding sensation in the ass.)
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To: Liberty1970

How about around the ACLU headquarters too?


15 posted on 08/17/2006 8:39:17 PM PDT by CindyDawg
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To: justche

Read 1st & 6th paragraphs again.


16 posted on 08/17/2006 8:39:23 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and proud of it! Supporting our troops means praying for them to WIN!)
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To: xzins
The pastor's group said that means any monument, building, or even feature of nature is an illegal "establishment of religion" if a church ceremony is held there...It's about time Christian groups go on the offensive - instead of merely defending against the absurd idea that they are in violation of the Constitution because their practices amount to Congress making a law establishing a state religion, they should start resorting to the second Constitutinal prohibition regarding religion - that Congress shall make no law interfering with the free practice thereof - such silly rulings from the bench surely result in such interference, and maybe a few countersuits for big bucks would make some of these atheists, and even the ACLU, think twice before bringing such actions in the future.......
17 posted on 08/17/2006 8:41:29 PM PDT by Intolerant in NJ
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To: yevgenie

LOL. If you follow their "logic" that would work.


18 posted on 08/17/2006 8:42:13 PM PDT by keats5 (tolerance of intolerant people is cultural suicide)
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To: xzins

Well, I guess we have to elect another conservative president who will put a few more good supreme court justices on the bench.

These screwball judges will work themselves out of the system. And we will be vigilant to keep the activist judges off the bench.

More to come later.


19 posted on 08/17/2006 8:43:50 PM PDT by jonrick46
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To: xzins

Was the entire court involved in this case, or is this a ruling from a single judge?
Wonder who appointed these weirdos.


20 posted on 08/17/2006 8:52:52 PM PDT by Elsiejay (.)
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To: xzins
Apparently these stupid a$$ judges learned to read in public schools. the first amendment clearly states that the government cannot stop anybody from exercising their religious rights. It seems to me they only read the first part of that statement and completely ignore the second part of the establishment clause.
21 posted on 08/17/2006 8:56:26 PM PDT by scottywr (democrat motto "rule in spite of the law".)
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To: justche
"We have NO idea of China like persecution - shame on the comparison!"

You beat me to it. So absurd a comparison as to make me pretty much dismiss the rest of the article.

Only in America could a group that comprises 80% of the population, including the president and most members of congress claim the title of persecuted.
22 posted on 08/17/2006 9:06:26 PM PDT by ndt
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To: justche

we are headed the same way china did under mao. Failure to recognize this could be deadly. The (true) price of Liberty is not eternal vigilance, it is the shed blood of patriots. Freedom is not for cowards!


23 posted on 08/17/2006 9:39:28 PM PDT by LibreOuMort ("...But as for me, give me liberty or give me death!" - Patrick Henry)
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To: ntnychik
Hi Chik...
You're right. Let’s parse the First Amendment.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,"


IMO, the liberal courts have butch-ed this clause into unrecognizable hamburger.

It starts off with the first word "Congress." The dim-wit men in black have meant "Congress" to mean a host of imaginary things, but not the way the sentence is constructed. How this got so convoluted to mean something other then the word "congress," beats me.   Moreover, there are only 10 words in the mentioned clause.   How a man/woman in black can write 50 or more pages goes beyond rational thinking. Yes Christianity is under attack in America, by rotten judges and a Godless ACLU. The judges need to be impeached, and the ACLU needs to be disbanded, or have costly cross complaints filed for attempting to destroy Christianity in America. We don’t need a Godless organization speaking for Americans.

 

24 posted on 08/17/2006 9:42:18 PM PDT by Smartass ("In God We Trust" - "An informed and knowledgeably citizen is the best defense against tyranny")
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To: xzins

And the twilight fades a little more to darkness.

Work while it is light friends, for the darkness is coming when no one will be able to work.


25 posted on 08/17/2006 9:49:29 PM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: xzins
Religious expression by religious citizens = establishment of religion...

Athiestic expression by Athiests has become the new State Religion, now founded by law. Clearly a violation of the Constitution.

Like Muslims, Athiests do not respect law, they use it to their purposes.

26 posted on 08/17/2006 9:51:05 PM PDT by American in Israel (A wise man's heart directs him to the right, but the foolish mans heart directs him toward the left.)
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To: justche
We have NO idea of China like persecution - shame on the comparison!

Like a match is to a bon fire, the burn is painful and the result in the end is the same, a nation of cinders. The only difference I can see is that a match is a lot easier to put out in your living room than a bonfire.

Shame on you for justifying religious persecution because it is less than China's!

27 posted on 08/17/2006 9:53:01 PM PDT by American in Israel (A wise man's heart directs him to the right, but the foolish mans heart directs him toward the left.)
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To: Smartass

I think the ACLU qualifies for special consideration under the RICO statutes.

My favorite part of the First Amendment is the second clause:
Congress shall make no law...
prohibiting the free exercise thereof.


28 posted on 08/17/2006 10:20:03 PM PDT by ntnychik
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To: justche
We have NO idea of China like persecution - shame on the comparison!

You are right. The author is a drama queen.

29 posted on 08/17/2006 10:24:34 PM PDT by ModelBreaker
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To: Alex Murphy

Well, that was a nasty little comment about my senior Pastor. What's your problem with Greg?


30 posted on 08/17/2006 10:26:48 PM PDT by Salem (FREE REPUBLIC - Fighting to win within the Arena of the War of Ideas! So get in the fight!)
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To: ntnychik
What about these Amendments don't they understand?

They understand them perfectly, which is why they have such seething disgust for them, and want nothing more than for them to go away.

31 posted on 08/17/2006 10:34:51 PM PDT by kittycatonline.com
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To: ntnychik
Exactly...
"Congress" are the law makers.   How the courts managed to equate states, counties, and local governments to mean "congress" goes beyond reasonable comprehension. But then, judges are no more then lawyers that have made occupational changes. Anyway, no one ever said they were the brightest crayons in the pack.

 

32 posted on 08/17/2006 10:35:44 PM PDT by Smartass ("In God We Trust" - "An informed and knowledgeably citizen is the best defense against tyranny")
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To: Alex Murphy

The rantings of the WND are a bit different than Greg Laurie's teachings, - who by the way I actually have listened to and have great respect for more than 25 years now. I don't have a beef with the Word of God or people that talk about it. I have a beef with the henny penny headlines of what is hardly more than a "Conservative" gossip rag.

Instead of bellyaching on here, how many people will actually follow up with a letter to their congress and senate reps to do something?


33 posted on 08/17/2006 10:36:12 PM PDT by justche (If you're afraid of the future, then get out of the way, stand aside. - Ronald Reagan)
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To: ntnychik; potlatch

34 posted on 08/17/2006 10:39:38 PM PDT by devolve (fx 9125_AMERICANS_KILLED_2003_BY_ILLEGALS MEX_ILLEGAL_GOT_911_TERRORISTS_ID NO_NUEVO_TEJAS)
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To: ModelBreaker
We have NO idea of China like persecution - shame on the comparison!...You are right. The author is a drama queen.

If the story was about a Catholic priest being accused of a molestation, I doubt the author of the story would be labeled a drama queen. If the story was about a mayor pushing for a ban on certain types of ammo, I doubt the author would be labeled a drama queen.

Activist judges and the ACLU are like terrorsts; they only need to succede once. They want that one ruling to go their way, then it's "Stare Decisis, baby, we got precedent!" It might sound like hubris, but every inch of ground lost in the courts is basically lost forever. Once precedent is established in court rulings, it's pretty difficult to overcome.

35 posted on 08/17/2006 10:41:44 PM PDT by kittycatonline.com
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To: devolve

LOL, devolve, you've got the Ginsberg with the 'tail' again!! What happened to the tailess one? I have it in my files.


36 posted on 08/17/2006 10:43:51 PM PDT by potlatch (Does a clean house indicate that there is a broken computer in it?)
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To: Liberty1970

How about a rally in this judges' court room?


37 posted on 08/17/2006 10:49:35 PM PDT by taxesareforever (Never forget Matt Maupin)
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To: American in Israel
Like Muslims, Athiests do not respect law, they use it to their purposes.

True, and the ACLU (Atheist Communist Lawyers Union) will lead the legal attack pro bono whenever and wherever it can find a disgruntled atheist to represent.

The term "pro bono" formerly meant "for the public good", but the ACLU has changed it to mean "for the destruction of Christianity". I don't understand why there is no organization of conservative attorneys who could do for the Christian pro-Americanism faction what the ACLU is doing for the far smaller atheistist anti-Americanism faction.

I don't think American Christians, of which I am one, have experienced any real persecution by the government so far. But the wind is definitely blowing in that direction, and if radical leftwing Democrats like the CT primary winner and his Cindy Sheehan-like supporters ever take over both Congress and the White House I expect a significant degree of government persecution against evangelical Christians to begin soon thereafter. I'm not breaking out the tinfoil hats just yet, but I can recognize an implacable enemy when I see one.

38 posted on 08/17/2006 10:54:56 PM PDT by epow
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To: taxesareforever

Very good. Do you suppose they use an actual Bible when they swear in witnesses anymore?


39 posted on 08/17/2006 10:58:23 PM PDT by free_at_jsl.com
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To: xzins
This was written by Paul Stone of Federal Way, WA:

Reward!

Have you seen these words: "Separation of Church and State" in the U.S. Constitution?

If you can find these words in the U.S. Constitution you will have accomplished an amazing thing. The words 'separation' and 'church' do not even appear in the U.S. Constitution. Don't believe it. Check it out!

If Congress were to pass a law prohibiting prayer in school, would it violate that part of the first amendment which reads: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . ."?

If Congress, whose job is to create law, cannot prohibit prayer in school, how did the Supreme Court do it without violating both the first amendment and the separation of powers?

Activist judges have stolen our country and our culture. Let's take America back! Impeach activist judges!

40 posted on 08/18/2006 12:43:59 AM PDT by jonrick46
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To: Liberty1970

Amen. Or DNC and/or ACLU HQ.


41 posted on 08/18/2006 12:49:49 AM PDT by farlander (Strategery - sure beats liberalism!)
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To: farlander; All
"Amen. Or DNC and/or ACLU HQ."

Can we add the UN to your list??

42 posted on 08/18/2006 12:58:33 AM PDT by musicman
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To: free_at_jsl.com

Awesome point!!!


43 posted on 08/18/2006 12:59:14 AM PDT by taxesareforever (Never forget Matt Maupin)
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To: musicman

Ooooo... oooo... now we're gettin' there.


44 posted on 08/18/2006 1:02:38 AM PDT by farlander (Strategery - sure beats liberalism!)
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To: xzins

If this ruling is as it's described here, it's absolutely outrageous.


It sounds like Christians have some sort of disease that even public monuments can catch.

Well, the only silver lining I can see is if you happen to know of a hideous piece of "art" in a public place, you can get rid of it by simply holding a prayer meeting around it...


45 posted on 08/18/2006 1:13:38 AM PDT by stands2reason (ANAGRAM for the day: Socialist twaddle == Tact is disallowed)
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To: justche
We have NO idea of China like persecution

Yet.

shame on the comparison!

The comparison isn't true as yet, but it sure seems we are on the slippery slope toward it becoming accurate. I think that was his point.

46 posted on 08/18/2006 1:24:30 AM PDT by Rytwyng (Only a Million Minuteman March can stop the Bush Border Betrayal!)
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To: stands2reason
Well, the only silver lining I can see is if you happen to know of a hideous piece of "art" in a public place, you can get rid of it by simply holding a prayer meeting around it...

Hey, now THERE'S an idea!

47 posted on 08/18/2006 1:25:04 AM PDT by Rytwyng (Only a Million Minuteman March can stop the Bush Border Betrayal!)
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To: Alex Murphy

But Alex, we ARE living in the last days, and have been ever since the Ascension.


48 posted on 08/18/2006 1:58:04 AM PDT by Lexinom
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To: jonrick46

Someone from my state actually wrote and had published something good and right?


49 posted on 08/18/2006 2:00:47 AM PDT by Lexinom
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To: xzins

Last eve I passed beside a blacksmith's door,
And heart the anvil ring the vesper chime;
Then, looking in, I saw upon the floor
Old hammers, worn with beating years of time.

How many anvils have you had," said I,
"To wear and batter all these hammers so?"
"Just one," said he, and then, with twinkling eye,
"The anvil wears the hammers out, you know."

And so, thought I, the anvil of God's Word,
For ages skeptic blows have beat upon;
Yet, though the noise of falling blows was heard,
The anvil is unharmed - the hammers gone.


50 posted on 08/18/2006 4:30:33 AM PDT by XR7
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